OC Coaches
To teach and correct technique, select crews, figure out what combinations work well together, and most importantly, to f*ck with your head and totally sabotage your paddling season!
#1 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 12:12pm
I think teaching technique is absolutely critical for kids and other novices. Most paddlers will perform at their best using perfect technique, and blending a team together is way easier when everyone's doing the same thing. There are exceptions here and there, crews or individuals who go fast with imperfect technique, but I think it's one of the most important things a coach can actually affect. I don't know how it is now, but Lanikai as a club always had fairly uniform technique from kids to golden masters, and I think that played a big part in the club becoming more successful.
#4 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 5:38pm
I have been wondering about that too...I have had my OC 1 in the water 3 times and other than a few times in a kiayak on vacation, I dont know a lot. I watch the videos carefully and have listened to the coaching at "outrigger chicks" in which you learn that many successful paddlers have pretty widely varying preferences in paddle length, stroke, etc. It does seem to me that when you know the coaching points and you do a really great stroke that you can feel, it, but some people think they are doing great and the video camera tells a different story. I hear there is a clinic coming up in redondo beach and I am going to try to get some tips.
#5 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 6:36pm
A coaches only job is to practice voodoo. The stronger the voodoo the luckier the team.
#6 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 9:03pm
This is what you could tell the little ones
-sit up, dont slouch,
-5 strokes a side,
-dont look around,
-keep an eye on the turn,
-a little twist from the soulders ,
-keep the blade close to the canoe
-get the paddle out before it reaches the hip,
-balance the canoe, dont ride the ama,
-use a liitle piece of tape to mark where to reach to.
-plant the blade and pull hard and harder each stroke,
set up a bench and go over it with them on dry land. Video tape them on water and go over it.get video of the pro's. have guest speakers. kids love to be challenged, and have fun, mix it up,cross train,gym workouts,running, and have them keep track of there training is important.a star for each acompleshment.movie passes and pizza nights.for prizes
what you are doing is great, we all should do the same.
#8 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 11:17pm
For those of us who are novice to oc-1 and not located near an epicenter of oc paddlers, what do the experts suggest? Time on the water is important but without some source of technique coaching, bad technique becomes more difficult to break.
#9 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 2:50am
There's an excellent description of technique by Jason Somerville-Kimlin of Mooloolaba at performance paddling.com. I think video is an effective tool for coaching technique. A picture is worth a thousand words, eh? Find some video of someone whose technique you'd like to emulate and visualize that while paddling. There's some Danny Ching footage here on oc.paddler- perfect, clean, efficient outrigger technique.
#10 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 5:24am
I think technique is one of the most important aspects of coaching and paddling fast, efficiently. you can easily see someone who is paddling hard and still going slow. I see this in experienced and novice paddlers and I want to help. So I am starting a technique coaching service. My coaching credintials include 5 time novb state champs, 2 time senior women state champs, and several other state titles. The women I coach have many top 10 molokai and top 3 kona finishes. I coach simplicity and efficiency, I explain the reasoning for everything I coach and will teach drills to help you improve. If you do not like what you hear there will be no charge. For all elite paddlers I also do lactate acid blood testing. Aloha, Sean
779 6438
#12 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 10:24am
Pretty sure Danny and a buddy of his who helps him come up with workouts and training ideas are starting a few clinics here in SoCal, If you email his dad at mudbrookracingpaddles.com you can probably get info on them. There have been flyers at a few of the races here that said they would go over a lot of technique work, among other things.
#13 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 11:32am
Just remembered this video that was posted a while ago about six man technique. Seems like it would be helpful to some people at least.
http://outriggercanoe.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
its near the bottom of the page shows cory sitting in a six man reaching out.
#14 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 11:35am
The one he's talking about is as good as any technique breakdown I've seen. The one on the outrigger chicks blog is also outstanding.
#16 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 12:03pm
i don't even know if this link will work but worth trying.
http://www.eteamz.active.com/hanohano/files/out_stroke.pdf
if this makes sense to anyone...
#17 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 5:41pm
Eckhart you could see the top hand as a guide and the bottom as the power source.
torso twist is a great way to incorporate the whole body into the stoke and use them big back muscles
I knoticed when I take the ruder of I learn to use legs right down to the toes.
solo paddles is a tuff one. 9 1/4 seems to be the norm.
80 per min is a good rate the normal one is 60. they have watches that beep out the time if that helps
waves we do not see many big ones but welcome any we do get.
Hope this help's
#18 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 6:20pm
eckhart
to ingage your entire back and shoulders you can have close to equal downward pressure from the top hand as pulling pressure from bottom hand. top arm should remain consistant and close to straight, not punching out. your body should twist and not lean, leaning causes inchworming. focus on the plant and the front of the stroke, your recovery shouldn't end until your blade is burried in the front. ensure a clean exit as tiny deviations can slow the blade down in the back of the stroke and kill the glide. faster stroke rate equals more cardio, slower equals more strength. if you have an eficient stroke you can go very fast with a slower rate. tahiti did not win because of a faster rate, they won because they have probally 100 guys equal to our top guys fighting to be on a top crew. they do make a living from paddling. they also trained 18 hours a week since january to come here and win.
#20 Mon, 01/28/2008 - 9:44pm
Sean, I've read your last post a couple of times and i think maybe some of what you are saying may not be clear to some or might require further explanation. If my interpretation is wrong please forgive me.
When you say "don't lean" i assume you mean "hinging" at the waist in a forward and backward movement. I've always been taught that a slight static forward lean, is the correct posture for an efficient outrigger stroke as it pre-loads the core and places the upper body in a stable position from which to launch the stroke. Karel Jnr is a perfect example of this. (see pic below)
"Inchworming" i assume you mean is the end result of "hinging" at the waist as you progress through the stroke recovery phase.
Something for paddlers to try next time on your OC1 - with your paddle in both hands and across your knees and the canoe stationary in flat calm water. Deliberately "hinge" forward and backwards at the waist at approximately your stroke rate. You should find the the canoe will move forward and backwards about 6 inches, pivoting from shoulder height, this is what kills the "glide" that Sean speaks of, especially on the recovery stroke.
Now watch a video of Karel Jnr paddling OC1, he cleverly uses his long upper body as weight bearing down on his blade with quite a forward lean at the end of his stroke, but notice his body recovery position, it doesn't move until he has completed most of the return stroke, thus maintaining his glide and not "inchworming" as Sean calls it, like a caterpillar.
I hope this complements what Sean said above.
Cheers Rambo
Sean, this is what Johnny Puakea had to say about the Tahitians as quoted in Pacific Paddler Mag.
We spent all year trying
to improve our hull speed,"
said John Puakea, coach for
Outrigger Canoe Club and
Team Bradley. "We are so far
behind, how are we going to
make up 15 minutes? That's
what we are thinking about."
"Technically they are good…
they don't use their arms…
they use their bodies… they
have perfect timing," he said.
The Tahitians were catching
the little bumps and riding
them — the ones we weren't
catching." He said the Tahitian
stroke rate increases to around
80 per minute to catch the
bumps. "Their conditioning's
better, they train harder and a
lot more than we do here." John said their success is due in
part because they get financial support in Tahiti. "Our guys
have to train and go to work. The Tahitians, like the European
kayakers, work for companies that pay them to work out," he
added. In Tahiti, the paddlers from Shell Va'a have a job and
that's to be the best paddlers in the world.'
Cheers Rambo
Danny Ching
Karel Jnr
#22 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 12:57am
Eckhar
to respond . It was the way I was taught ( if you exited past your waist you would be pulling the canoe downward motion and causing friction )
I love the big blades too, when I can handle them.
80 strokes a minute, I think your heart rate should get high and your blood should turn air into energy as fast as it can and you will beat the other guy. A perfect diet, cardio workouts, My good friend Hue told me. ( You have to have a good heart in moor ways than one.)
are we are still talking about teaching youth?
#23 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:03am
Several Tahitians have posted, saying that the Shell guys have jobs like everyone else. And I know alot of paddlers from Oahu who have jobs but it's not like they're working in a coal mine or something, if you get my meaning. Also, if you look at the names of the Shell guys, only a few of those guys were tops in Super Aito-so it's not an All-Star team in that sense. Maybe Hiro C. could clarify. I think they have just made it a higher priority than their competition, and made time to really improve. I remember when the Australians were dominating and the same things were said-they're professionals, they have millions of paddlers to choose from etc. etc. I don't think there's any big mystery, the people that work the hardest as a team win, right?
#24 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:20am
eckhart
clean release comes from not forcing the paddle out. easy drill is to let go of your paddle as it reaches your thigh, allowing the paddle to exit cleanly on its own. reach in and grab it as it floats on the water in the back of your stroke taking note of your elbow bend and position. if your elbow is too close to your body in your release you must lift your shoulder or sit up at the end to get the blade out causing slight drag and hurting glide. your top hand should not drop too far down. only way to get better in the rough is to paddle in the rough. remember to focus on the front of your stroke as tippiness encourages bad technique.
sorry rambo couldn't look at videos but i do use the "hinging" drill to show how hinging hurts glide. as well even a slight sit up in the back of your stroke can slow the transition of your blade loosing efficiency.
#25 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 6:41am
I notice the marathon people around here use some really small blades for the long events, like the one Rambo just did. I wonder if the Tahitians use smaller blades for Super Aito and Hawaiki Nui? I know their paddles for the channel were quite large and heavy, by our standards.
#27 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:31pm
I am not perfect with my analogies at all but this is only what I think. I love talking canoe
I noticed younger people can get the strokes per min up easier than older people and make it work well.
older paddlers can use there knowledge or technique to do the same speed at a lower stoke per min rate.
the younger person I would guess uses there cardio and overall conditioning or heart rate to get the speed up.
so I think if I was to get my heart rate up to there level and my body turns it into energy it will equal speed. while trying to keep heart rate down but average speed up especially at the end of the workout .theirs a good chance I could be wrong about this part.
A paddle is like a poll volt that you plant and pull yourself over top and the larger size of the blade quickens the result of the pull and great for sprints. and a smaller blade if used with good technique can achieve the same speed but takes a well disciplined technical paddlers. which dose not describe the average youth. And is hard to get of the line fast. But great for long run.
could anyone elaborate on heart rate in layman terms?
#28 Tue, 01/29/2008 - 4:52pm
Wow EckHart
That great
Its going to take me a while to understand all that. I will read this several times. I guess in some sense a heart beat is the same as a stroke, get the most out of each one.
#30 Wed, 01/30/2008 - 1:34am
The Tahitian paddlers with Shell and OPT have jobs, technically. The Shell paddlers work for and are paid by Shell. The OPT paddlers work for and are paid by the post office and telecom. How do I know this?
I paddled 4 Molokai races with Tahitian teams. We finished first, first, second, and fourth. My two closest friends in Tahiti, Lewis Laughlin and Karyl Maoni both worked for Shell. Lewis also had a job at OPT. While at Shell, Lewis was the coach of their vaa team.
It is true that they train longer and harder than local teams do and that is the reason that they are successful. It is also true that they have more hours in the day to do their training. We could do the same thing if we could put lights in the ocean and paddle from 5pm to 10pm. Maybe Outrigger Connection can create a new class of canoes with a halogen light bar.
#33 Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:42pm
I was wondering is it better to train twice a day as apposed to once. if the time training adds up to the same?
#35 Wed, 01/30/2008 - 6:35pm
I could see how you get your body sweating and calories burning and as you recover they continue to burn and you would loose moor weight ,but is that the same with training would you get faster from this practice . I guess it wouldn’t hurt.
#37 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 7:54am
10,000 hours
I've been lurking and reading the "why coaching" comments and feel there are a number of fundamental points being overlooked on why coaching is important.
I feel it is important to make a distinction between trained coaches and untrained coaches. We're not talking sport trained here as in the coach also paddles and works out, but coaching education trained.
In oc paddling there is very little systematic coaching education. Many of our well trained coaches come from other sports education systems; sprint paddling, swimming, track and field, kinesiology program graduates, etc.
A well trained coach is knowledgeable in many aspects of sport preparation;
- ethics of coaching: absolutely essential to treating participants with respect, being responsible with their coaching decisions, honouring sport, etc.
- biomechanics: to understand technique, wave drag, form drag, resistance on the paddle, muscle forces, etc. Solid biomechanical knowledge will allow a coach to minimize the risk of sport technique related injuries
- sport specific technique: how to teach the sport skills properly, not just based on local knowledge but on widely accepted (i.e. state/provincial or national) standards. Knowing about biomechanics and technique will allow a coach to stop fussing over style issues and teach sport skills.
- psychology: teaching participants on how to think and behave in ways that will enhance both their performance and their long term quality of life
- sociology: knowing how sport will impact the participant in their community and vice versa
- tactics: knowledge on how to use other skills in competition and training to enhance performance
- fitness: knowing a little about basic physiology will help in prescribing workloads that will help participants reach their objectives
Most importantly though...
- gain practical and applied experience coaching: take what you've learned and put it to use. Merge your theoretical knowledge with your experience into becoming a better coach.
Of the posts we've seen in this thread and elsewhere in OCpaddler and other groups, it is very evident that there is a desire to know more about coaching, learn how to get faster, how to get stronger, etc.
I'd encourage anyone interested in coaching to take a basic coaching education course. In Canada these are available through the Coaching Association of Canada and provincial association. Each region has general theory courses available throughout the year. From there paddle sport coaches would have to look to CanoeKayak Canada for sport specific training, then put their ass in gear and apply that knowledge in a practical coaching evaluation period.
Anyone can call them self a coach. To become a good coach is earned through lots of hard work. To be a great coach takes even more work, 10,000 hours of practical coaching experience or more is often listed as the benchmark here.
We've got work to do.
#38 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 9:19am
Books on coaching... tough one. Depends what you want and who you're coaching.
My favourite resource right now to get people thinking right is to read the info at www.ltad.ca it a growing resource on long term athlete development encouraging an active for life approach to sport.
For heart rate, I recommend using it to make sure you're not going too hard when you do your easy distance or on recovery workouts (HR 50-70% max). It can also tell you when you're tired if you can't get to your expected peak HR on a given workout. As for who, anyone training systematically / aerobically 4-6 days / week and able to understand how to use it and control their speed/effort?
Lactate testing is more advanced and requires much better interpretation skills to be a valid coaching tool. Sure it can have "ooooo" and "ahhh" appeal, but it has to be used regularly to monitor then modify training to be a benefit.
#42 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 12:34pm
I steal from the established rowing & bicycling crowd.
A great in-depth rowing book is called "Rowing Faster" by Nolte. Great study on current rowing techniques/fitness easily transferable to OC.
Tons of info on bicycling, from base-building to periodization, to fitness development in many branches. Authors like Friel and Chapple.
OC is an endurance sport with also a sprinting twist (downwinders, sprints, power-ups, etc...). It mirrors cycle racing well therefore you can find alot of good info out there and apply.
#43 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 3:24pm
just some points on lactate testing, from memory at the moment so not complete, ask if you need more. testing would be pretty useless if you are not in top shape. the first session, done at varied intensity levels either speed or heart rate. starting low and working past a point of lactate steady state (LAS). example; test at 6mph, 6.5mph, 7 mph, 7.5mph, 8mph or until you see a spike in blood lactate, passing the LAS where lactate accumulates faster than your body can use. each test should be several minutes long. last piece should be all out sprint for aprox 1 minute checking blood at 5,7, and 20 minutes after the sprint to determin clearance rate. the pertinent information gained from first session is the LAS point. this is maximum effort substainable without build up of blood lactate. too much blood lactate and mucles cramp.
any subsequent testing shows how your training is effecting blood lactate production and gains on clearence rates. this is used to adjust your training for specific events. sprinters want to be able to produce high levels of lactate because a byproduct of lactate acid is purine and purine is the most easily consumed source of energy. ultra long distance athletes would of course be the opposite. paddlers would fall in the middle.
#44 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 8:30pm
Hey Allan
don’t lurk, amazing insight as always.
Eckhart
can the protein drinks get you fat. I love salmon and pasta fruits veggies carrot celery apples soups. oatmeal. and whatever my wife cooks .I like to eat things from the earth. natural diet but I would hate to think the muscles are eating themselves. I guess its train, eat, sleep, and start again. Is there a natural substitute for protein drinks.
#46 Thu, 01/31/2008 - 11:27pm
Thank for the info eckhart. you just confirmed that my diet is balanced. I absorb the healthiest food on a regular basis ! German cooks rules !
#48 Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:46pm
German Doctors actually encourage beer drinking when afflicted with Kidney Stones.helps to flush them out. Balance your proteins with beer. Your kidneys will thank you.
German beer like Bock is also great for carb loading.
#49 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:14am
u should coach for perfection in this order
1.technique/blend
2.conditioning
3.strength
4.not to check out the opposite sex till after their race.
5.drink only a lil bit before da race
#54 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:21pm
Hasselhof definitely spent too much time in the Hasselhofbrauhaus. It may be a blemish on the german psyche to have embraced him as a singing popstar.
Future generations may tell. For now I am ashamed, but refuse to blame it on consumption of the holy brew.
#55 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 5:51pm
speaking of beer in Germany...Oktoberfest, we should all go. It could be a new type of paddling competition.
Who's in? oktober fest 2009, i'm there. Start building your base now with long period 70 to 80% drunk nights.
#56 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 6:01pm
The un Cool
I could never drink, I tried but could not. in most cases I don’t mention it or I hide it but if you were to ask I would say it is the worst thing for a athlete, or anyone else for that matter. financially mentally emotionally and physically. Is the gateway drug brewski and if a person was to tell me they had a big problem in there life I would give odds it can be traced to the bottle or money. But I digress what happens in the forum stays in the forum or said in the changing room.
#57 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 6:20pm
The girls in the picture look pretty stoked though.
I rarely drink either, but Oktoberfest looks like a huge party. And the scenery isn't half bad either. Since I'm married, about all I can do is take in the sights anyway.
So I'm guessing Mulus isn't in for the trip. Anyone else?
Oh...so yeah, since this thread is about coaching kids. Here's my 2 cents. Circuit training with light weight can be great in the off/pre-season. (for high schoolers in my experience, not sure what age kids we're talking about here) I'm a firm believer in the light weight/high rep/short rest/circuit type of thing to strengthen muscles, joints, etc. In addition to boat time, I think this can have a great benefit in the long run with helping to prevent injury as well as strengthening sport specific muscles.
Circuit training can be especially helpful when you get teenagers that are mostly concerned with showing everyone how much they can bench. A regimented circuit workout helps maintain focus, keeps weights from getting to heavy, and helps maintain good form.
#58 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 6:39pm
Drunk people not popular in Der Vaterland? How do you explain the whole Hasselhof thing, then?
#60 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 8:55pm
I just realized the Moloka'i is in October and all the real paddlers will be racing, so I guess I'm on my own. Bummer for you guys...
#61 Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:17pm
Lovely to hear that beer is good for you. But back to the main subject: coaching in outrigger canoe paddling. The most important thing as a coach is to decide why you are coaching. If it is simply to win then your objective is to find the best athletes in whatever sport you coach and get them together to be champions. If your goal is to be succesful as far as wins and losses go then the best talent is your answer. But if you want to make a difference in the paddling world or whatever coaching genre you choose, my advice is to get the " worst" paddlers you can find and make them exceed their potential. That is the true mark of success for a coach. If your crew is better when you leave than the day you found them, then you have succeded (sorry for the spelling). The biggest accomplishment for a paddling coach is after you coach your former paddlers still have deep things to say about you. Our sport is too deep to be about wins and losses. It's about the family you inherit with every crew you paddle with. As far as technique the hawaiian style is the best.... pull with love and you can never lose!
#62 Sun, 02/03/2008 - 12:29am
Just admit it Eckhart, the Germans simply have a better ear for music than Americans. They know a real star when they see one. Now, back to my vinatge "Knight Rider" episodes recorded on Betamax.
#64 Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:18am
What is the function of coaches in OC paddling ?
Please do not misunderstand this question; I once read a comment about surfing: " if you want to know about surfing, go out and surf".
There is a lot of truth to that. Is paddling like that, too ?
In paddling you do not hear too much either; " reach out and twist, blend - ... and ... time on the water".
Is that it ? I am helping out with the youth program. Should you just let them paddle and have them find their own technique ?
Submitted by eckhart on