OCPaddler.com | Flat water performance - are the new boats catching up ?

Shawn Michael

Hard to imagine getting 4s in everything. If there are enough #s maybe you can crunch those out. I was able to talk Kai and he said the scorpius was good in the flats, significantly faster than the polaris thought the polaris is more comfortable. I have also had builders tell me their boats suck in the flats (tiger) but thrive in the bumps. I hear tiger is going to work on the Pahoa for a california design that will run really fast in the flats, changing the tail and the rocker for our conditions (it is just a rumor :) ) I dont know if you can have it all. I wonder why stats for canoes that have been out so long dont get published...

#1 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 9:44pm

jpi92109

Not trying to be harsh or disrespectful but a surveys is merely a collection of personal opinions. This sight is the same thing except without the numbers. To compare you would want the same people paddling different canoes and giving their opinions of the differences that way.
I have a Zephyr that I think it great in the flat. I have never paddled a Makia or a Hurricane though. SO how valuable is my "4"?
I think if you look at some older designs like Makias and Vantages and compare them to a Scorpius and Pueo how could you possibly argue that canoes are not better all around in all conditions?

#2 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 9:56pm

eckhart

Of course it is merely a collection of opinions. That is what it is meant to be - and it is valuable.
If you ask 10 people: how comfortable is your boat and they all respond likewise, it has a value.
It is better to ask 100 people - lets hope for more responses.
If you look at the averages from just above 10 Hurricane opinions - right on the mark.
I agree that no boat should have an excellent everywhere, that contradicts my understanding of design.
I have not paddled older designs, but I hear that the Waveblade is still good, the Hurricane is among the leading, the Vantage still among the best for big surf - all older designs.

#3 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:16pm

jc9_0

no one has rated a rudderless fer flat conditions yet. if 4 be th' maximum on th' scale, then they`ll be havin' t' add a higher number. rudderless boats be definitely better in th' flats. they make most any ruddered boat feel like a bathtub wi' an ama.

#4 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:16pm

eckhart

Three rudderless have been rated: Jacques Vaa (2) and Tevanui.
Sure they all have a 4 on flat water performance - and may deserve a 5 - , none of them rates big water performance, steering they get low 2s.

#5 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:27pm

jpi92109

Eckhart - I wasnt trying to bash on your survey by any means. I filled it out as well. Im only saying thats its tough to look at it and say "Wow, lots of people rated Pahoas this way or that", because they are only opinions. Some people may rate their hurricanes as a 4 in the surf but would anyone suggest one as a great surfing canoe to someone inquiring? always thought it would be great to get honest opinions from top guys on other boats but that will never happen. This is topic is tough because so many people want to just read what canoe they should buy instead of trying them all out.

#6 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:37pm

jpi92109

I didnt look very closely but did anyone survey any china boats? other than hurricanes of course.

#7 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:38pm

eckhart

No, I understand what you are saying and I have the same opinion.
I am trying to get at least 10 ratings, then I take the average.
Could it be that an 'enthusiast' rates his own boat 10 times and gives it an all star rating ? Sure, what can you do.
On a more positive approach: how do you actually buy a boat, and how many boats do you test before you buy ?
I bought one that was available, no clue what I was buying. Didn't do well on it, because I didn't know how to paddle. Bought the next one 6 months later, more or less by hearsay, too. Liked it, kept it. Bought a used third brand that seemed to work well for everybody else.
Test rides on other canoes ? I think I did three or four, mostly very short ones, a la 'let me see'.
What I am trying to say: I agree that it would be better to paddle them all extensively, but how often does that happen ?
A survey like this can give you - maybe - an idea where to start looking. Once I get some more videos like the 'Pueo' videos collected, then people can get an even better idea.
jpi - I have a survey for manufacturers where I am trying to find out where the boats are being built. One response so far, theses guys must be busy. :)

#8 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 10:53pm

jpi92109

You know what, my hats off to you for working so hard to make the sport a little bit easier to get into. This is NOT the easiest activity to just roll up and get into when your new in town. I would imagine on the mainland it is even harder.
Thanks for the hard work Eckhart.

#9 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 11:14pm

eckhart

Thanks jpi, you're welcome - it is a combination of interests that come together here: paddling, boat design, webdesign.
People are really interested in how to paddle better. OC 1 is a good starting point, because you have direct feed back on what you do.
For beginners the real skill - the famous 'reading the ocean' - seems so far away - the more you know/learn, the better.
If you look at my blog and what I am trying to collect - it is resources that will help on that journey.

#10 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 11:27pm

jpi92109

I think Luke said in one of his older videos that paddling 1 man gets more fun as you get better. Couldnt be more true. Keep up the great blog. When I was just getting started I scoured the internet for photos, videos, product sites, whatever I could find to learn more about oc1. There isnt much but once in awhile you stumble on something like ocpaddler, rambos locker, and blogs like yours and they really help.

#11 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 11:48pm

eckhart

It actually helps to read about it, doesn't it ?
Rambo has a wealth of information - just look on the Australian outrigger forum - real neat.
Yet:
" If you want to know about surfing, go out and surf "

#12 Sun, 09/07/2008 - 11:56pm

Rambo

I would definatley say the Hurricane is a great "surfing canoe".
Where we have to be more specific is in what type of surf you specify.
In strong wind chop in shallows bays and protected waters the Hurricane is one fast canoe in the right hands.
Cheers Rambo

#13 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 1:57am

eckhart

There are limitations to a survey - just look at what they do to us with Obama/McCain polls daily ... :) - I am sure that we do better.
I just posted a link to a google video featuring the Polaris in the channel - Mel Josafat and Chris Wong. Click the link below.

#14 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 7:58am

eckhart

Rambo, I felt it would be confusing if the survey were too specific. Even here, on the windward side of Oahu, the boats perform different depending in which section you actually paddle them.
Think Portlock Wall - not all boats are good there.
We have some Hurricane experts here that have paddled the boat for a decade or so, they make it move in any condition.

#15 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 9:53pm

RatchetJaws

Hi Eck...
For us old school guys that had the Arrow, Arrow II, The sniper, Nai'a, Waveblade, Thunder and a few other models, the designs and boats now days are light years better, both in flat water and on the bumps. The boat builders have really done a good job in R & D. Karel takes much credit in getting the boat builders to stay on their game because he was popping boats out like one every year.
I appreciate the old days. If I was a young buck coming into one manning right now, because of the cost, I would definately be doing the demo route, paddle as much boats as possible, then getting the model I am most comfortable with.
Great boats on the market now days....great paddlers will make them all go fast.
Jaws Out.

#16 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 2:50pm

joe

Eckhart said:

"In the OC 1 Performance Survey a few posters have posted ” excellent ” for flat water performance AND for big water performance for the Scorpius and also Pueo."

My thought process when comparing Pueo & Hurricane:

More volume -1 point
Bigger ama -1 point
Improved back support, more comfortable +2
Better seat/peddle positioning, improved leg drive +1
Improved steering, smooth transitions +1
Ama not tracking +1

#17 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 7:00pm

tjl

Some comments on the chart at http://www.oc1design.blogspot.com/ :
In the OC1 comparison chart, should the heading "Ama" really be "?iako"? Haven't seen an aluminum OC1 ama yet.
The Hukis are all available in various layups with different weights, as described at http://www.huki.com/store/index.php?main_page=v1_options .
The Huki V1-R is commonly used by large paddlers (200-300 pounds).
In the OC1 Performance chart, should there be columns for "durability" and also "options on rated OC1" (e.g. different layup options, rudders, etc.)?

#18 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 7:52pm

Tahitian Paddler

I'll get to rating them soon!
But for now:
Timi Va'a is off the scale.
So is Tahitoa 4+++++++
and Temana 4+++++++
I'll get to the specs asap. I gotta get them from the makers. Or I'll ask them to put it on.

#19 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 8:30pm

Hiro C.

Just don't rate the V1s and OC1s on the same scale... sounds like comparing oranges with apples.
4 for a V1 should just mean Top of the V1 scale.

#20 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 8:58pm

jc9_0

it would be great t' be seein' some reviews an'/or dimensions o' V-1. nay one in hawaii really talks about them. what makes a Timi Vaa so good? i hear that name mentioned a lot. be 't on accoun' o' th' fastest guys addle 't, or be 't a great boat. be Timi Vaa a brand? do they make different shaped canoes, or be one model good fer all conditions? what about th' other tahitian V-1, what makes them so good...or bad?

#21 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 9:14pm

eckhart

it should indeed be iakus not ama - will change, thank you.
joe, thanks for the Huki info, will be included.
the durability is part of build quality. I figure if someone is or has been unhappy with something he/she will not post a 4.
Options would be in the Comparison Chart. Not sure if this would get too technical for a quick overview. If I should get interesting info on options I will include them.
rudderless should be rated differently. I do not know what rudderless paddlers are thinking of when they rate their boats. I am glad that they are in the chart. If enough people would post rudderless, it would be worthwhile to inquire about them separately.
it would be great if this would expand to V1 so that we can learn something about them. Again, I have little experience with V1; others would have to help/take the lead.

#22 Mon, 09/08/2008 - 9:48pm