Legal vs. illegal canoes qualifing for states

Seafarer

Legal vs illegal state spec canoes qualifing for State Champs. What is best for the sport? Around the state, what are the different associations doing? On the Big Island( MOKU Assoc.), clubs can qualify in illegal spec canoes. How is that good for the sport? So the option for clubs that are racing the larger legal canoes is to spend large money, minimully $40,000, to compete in certain races or certain conditions. Maybe an option is to use whatever, Mirage or Bradley, to qualify for states in the last three races of the yr. HUI Waa only uses fiberglass canoes all yr to qualify. The BI high school assoc,. only uses one race to qualify for states. I think that puts too much value on one race. Maybe a three race qualifing series on the last three races of the yr.

Submitted by Seafarer on Mon, 06/28/2010 - 10:08am

onnopaddle

Seafarer,
I've been watching it unfold before my eyes the past couple weekends. Races won / lost by small margins. Is it the boat ??? NOT taking away from the paddlers and club(s). Just wondering that myself, if a boat is not spec.legal ( faster OR slower ) , how is that fair as per the states rules ?
aloha,
pog

#1 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 10:45am

MikeA

The terms illegal and legal don't really apply to canoes that don't meet HCRA specs. Moku O Hawaii rules allow for the canoe builder to create what they consider to be a Hawaiian racing canoe and race in our association's events.
There have been canoes made on this island that were not allowed to race in our association because they did not have a Hawaiian shape. Basically, the Hawaiian shape is a continuous curve of the hull from front to back, no flat or v surfaces, and the greatest volume aft of center.
There are at least 5 canoes belonging to Moku O Hawaii clubs that do not currently meet HCRA design specifications. Three of them have raced this year and the crews in them have not always won their races.
If the rules allow the equipment, what is wrong with utilizing it?

#2 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 12:38pm

Seafarer

OK, lets call the canoes that don't pass spec for states unuseable, not illegal. One question was, how many other islands do this? The other question was is this really good for the sport? Is it beneficial to make this how much individual clubs can spend? So individual clubs need a useable(legal) and a unuseable(illegal) canoe? Is that the solution? Is that good for the sport? Why is it that the NFL is the most even and the most popular of all the professional sports? Salary cap. Why is it that the IVF uses the same canoe? Why does the olympics have specs on all equipment? So its the person making the difference as much as possible. I think its possible to have a system that has respect for the koa canoe culture and for keeping as even as possible with equipment. Oh yea, Oahu has specs already established for states.

#3 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 3:20pm

BillRosehill

Seafarer,
I don't recognize you in the previous threads re HCRA specs. Much information has been provided that substantiates what you refer to as "illegal", is indeed a traditional Hawaiian canoe design.
We on the Big Island, have never agreed with HCRA's specs and documentation supports our position. Thus we design and build canoes specifically for racing. Since we use the canoes explicitly for racing, "yes" it is good for the sport....and the culture as well.

#4 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 4:33pm

Hiro C.

Come to Tahiti, the Heiva (formerly Tiurai) races start at the end of the week. You'll see many different types of canoes in the same race... and noone will complain they lost because of the canoe's specs... and yes, that's good for the sport, there are thousands paddlers here.

#5 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 4:43pm

Seafarer

OK, The NFL example doesn't wk but its the cost issue thats the point. In Tahiti, they are not paying minimally tens of thousands of dollars just to refurbish a KOA canoe not to mention the time extra cost for a new KOA canoe. In Tahiti, I think the inexpensive way they are building helps the sport. We can promote creativity in like the PAA MOLO SOLO 6 man. In our sprint races that we must qualify to get to the state championships in KOA canoes, it only makes sense to use the same specs.

#6 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 5:03pm

BillRosehill

Seafarer,
I would disagree. The specs in existence are antiquated and not suited for racing. They have been that way since their inception 34 years ago. The reason they are antiquated is that kupuna builders died when the Hawaiian culture was stifled for decades, and knowledge of building swift racing canoes (kialoas) was lost. The HCRA specs accomplish the same stifling of Hawaiian culture.
The Pa'a Molo Solo came about as a result of information justifying canoes of unlimited design as indeed traditional to Hawaii.

#7 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 5:52pm

Seafarer

The specs are not suitable for racing? The specs are stifling to the Hawaiian culture? Wow. OK, if you say so. There are some very fast HCRA spec vaas all over the state that also turn very well. There are quite a few on the BI. Its one thing to make a straight line unlimited class design and another a fast canoe that can also turn for the regattas. It seems to me that the state spec designs perform very well for regattas or unless some of these canoes are not really state spec. Mmmm, thats a different discussion. Again, what other Hawaiian Island does this? Please inform me?
Is there still discussion of Polynesian Outrigger paddling being considered for the olympics? There use to be. I wonder if the olympic committee would insist on specs for the vaas? Ah, definitely. I wonder if Hawaii would be unified behind the specs in order to get our much loved sport in the olympics? I would hope so, if we haven't already missed the vaa on that one. Wouldn't this be exposing the Hawaiian culture and outrigger paddling more so to the world. I think so. Michael Phelps made very nice coin off his gold medals. Greg Barton did well for himself after his gold. Do you think that if the young ones knew these posibilties existed, that the sport would blow up? I believe so.

#8 Mon, 06/28/2010 - 10:52pm

BillRosehill

And there could be faster non-spec canoes that also turn well too. Problem lies with everyone having been brainwashed in to believing HCRA specs are the end-all of Hawaiian outrigger design. Kupuna who lived at the turn of the 20th century, and now passed over, spoke of very fast canoes of the time that were also very light...made of wiliwili...aka Hawaiian balsa. Every Polynesian society would build canoes suited for a specific intended purpose. Ours today is racing.
If we first promote and perpetuate authentic Hawaiian outrigger culture, then, when or if it should become an Olympic sport, it will be promoted properly. The other way around, and it's back a$$wards.

#9 Tue, 06/29/2010 - 6:45am

Kaiwiki

Bill, can you briefly clarify what the differences are between the HCRA spec canoe and a MOKU spec canoe? Is it just the waterline and overall length rules? Do the MOKU canoes still have to be 400 pounds?
I am in favor of rules that promote innovation, but I also understand that you want the state championship races to be fair to those clubs which cannot afford to continue to modify their canoes. I guess I am on the fence about switching the state rules, but don't have a problem with the MOKU rules. I would have a problem if I had to race against a 200 pound canoe, but that would be some pretty thin koa.

#10 Tue, 06/29/2010 - 9:20am

Seafarer

I am for innovation and for enabling speed in long distance races. More speed, more excitement will promote the sport. The subject matter was for regattas and on qualifing for states. Do you now want to get away from using koa? If we want to preserve the koa canoes for regatta racing, then 400 lbs is necessary for strength. Unless your going to change the rules and now let builders use koa laminates. Thats a thought. We are already opening the door with the koa veneer window amas. Lets do the hulls the same way. Since the BI is the only island that qualifies for states in unuseable state race canoes(better sounding?), then maybe the BI should be the leader and take it that far. Then we wouldn't have to pay such large money for a new koa log, waste much wood, make them 200 lbs. and make them ourselves(save big money). That would be more like what is happening in Tahiti I believe. 300 lb va'as, constructed from whatever works. The BI should do that for next year. What say?

#11 Tue, 06/29/2010 - 9:54am

BillRosehill

Kaiwiki,
The only difference is that Moku has no hull waterline measurements (specifications) to adhere to. Moku has a 400lb. minimum weight and a 45' maximum length.
Seafarer,
Agree.

#12 Tue, 06/29/2010 - 2:31pm