2009 Lili'uokalani Results, yet?

Anyone have the official results of the Lili'uokalani Race or knows who the top finishers were?

Submitted by OC1 Driver on Sat, 09/05/2009 - 11:26am



  1. Primo
  2. Livestrong
  3. Primo 2
  4. OCC
  5. Karel's crew
  6. Thibert's crew

based on text msgs i've received.


#1 Sat, 09/05/2009 - 2:23pm


heard hui lanakila 1st, beach boys 2nd in the girls


#2 Sat, 09/05/2009 - 2:34pm


Kona is usually the slowest to post the results, so any earlier info will be appreciated.


#3 Sat, 09/05/2009 - 5:01pm


No team bradley in the women's race?

i heard from guys in the race that primo took off at the start and never looked back. pretty impressive.


#4 Sat, 09/05/2009 - 10:18pm


From memory so....

Women

Open
Hui Lanakila 2:12 ish
WBB
WBB
Kai Opua

Koa
Outrigger
Hui Lanakila
Keauhou
Kai Opua

Men-not quite right above
Primo
Livestrong
Primo
??
??
Kai Opua
Keauhou (T's crew)

More racing to go tomorrow, check www.westhawaiitoday.com tomorrow, Sat results should be published.


#5 Sat, 09/05/2009 - 11:21pm


Here you go:

http://www.jtltiming.com/results/queenl.html


#6 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 12:31am


its to bad that they penalized so many boats 5 minutes for that start. it threw off the final finish order by a lot.

can we get a list of boats that had 5 minutes added to their final time? it would allow us to see the
actual overall finish.

did the 1st place primo team get a penalty? how about live strong? all those top boats were in a pack on the outside that went when the horn sounded along with boats that did get penalties.

congrats to all the paddlers for a great race. its too bad to have ANOTHER technicality change the results of a race.

nice job Knapp, not


#7 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 7:34am


Primo just established itself as the Hawaii team to beat for the channel. So, let me guess....Kai, Ching, Kekoa steering, rumors about the Original Whale Rider Mike Judd in the mix....can anyone fill in the blanks?? Must have been a great crew. What about the second crew?? Peter?, Tyson? probably a couple more Maui boys.

Either way, Shell Wa'a still going kick'em....

JawsOut.


#8 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 10:01am


I tend to agree w/ you ratchet, but who knows? It seems that in sports in general, just when someone appears to be most dominant, they get knocked off. Remember when no one thought that Fa'a'a could lose?


#9 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 11:46am


Any news on the V12's today?


#10 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 5:25pm


anyone know the story of that Three Man in the mens race?


#11 Sun, 09/06/2009 - 10:31pm


The 3 man is Tahitian Design. Odie Sumi, Kraig Hynes and another guy from Keauhou CC. Lets hope they started another division for the future.


#12 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 8:13am


From what I heard, a 5 min. penalty was added to like the last 20 canoes, maybe more, on the outside start line. Most of those crews, coincidently, were the first 15 finishers. The crews that i know/suspect had a 5 min. penalty were Primo 1and2, Livestrong, Outrigger, Kailua 1,2 and3, Kai opua, Team Steine, Keauhou, Hui lanakila's top 2 crews, Namolokama, Leeward Kai, and probably a bunch of others. The penalties didnt affect the order, until Kamehameha snuck in at 9 over Kailua.
I don't know for sure, though, so hopefully someone will post a list of the actual penalized crews


#13 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 9:12am


Why did the 3 man do the 6 man race? I know that on Sunday they put on a OC1, OC2 and maybe the OC3 should have been in there. What happens if the OC3 got tied up with a 6 man canoe off the start? It kinda puts those paddlers in a bad situation and maybe mess up the 6 man canoes that paid to race against other 6 man canoes. How many people will feel if a 2man decided to line up next year in the 18 mile race? There is nothing wrong with new ideas, but Sunday would have been a good day for the OC3.

Good job on all paddlers and right on for WBB women 2 crews in the top 5 and to Kailua and Kai Opua men, 5th and 6th in a tough field of elite paddlers. I heard that Team Stiene was a make up of the Bruhn brothers, Manny, Aaron Creps, Karel and another guy and finished 7th and Aaron Napoleon with " Ts " crew of Keauhou/Livestrong which finished 8th.


#14 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 9:18am


so,Team Primo won in 1h52min...is this with a 5 minutes penalty?
does anybody knows if they did a record time for this race?

mahalos.


#15 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 10:15am


go figure, those 20 boats on the outside were the only ones knapp could see from his little boat.


#16 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 10:16am


The 3 Man was included in the results, so i imagine they were registered and payed to play. I figure the ocean is a big enough area to play and we can all share without having too much trouble, chances are if they weren't registered they would have the decency to hang back or off to the side and not actually start with the race.

Awesome looking canoe - wood hull with a composite deck looked slick, I'd like to know where they got it.

Great race, lots of fun some little bumps if you could manage - too bad about the 5 min penalty, shame the race wasn't started as soon as the line was straighter than I'd ever seen before.


#17 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 10:46am


double post (computer illiterate)


#18 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 10:46am


The third guy is Kapena Otare.


#19 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 1:33pm


It would be nice to see a corrected time computation from the officials showing the finish time plus the penalty where it applied. For somebody that wasn't there it is hard to tell based upon what has been posted if that is a reflection of how crews crossed the line.


#20 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 3:52pm


mbsski- I think anything after 8th place is in question. Congrats on Kamehameha in placing 9th by default, but I really do not think they were the " actual " 9th canoe over the line. They finished 9th in the first LD race on their island, 12 miles. So how can that be? Look at the results below from that race.

Is it possible to put flags out on the mens start race like Molokai Hoe does? That may help the start line.

Keoua Long Distance

Filed in
Big Island

Moku O Hawai'i
Men and Mixed

PLACE TIME CLUB MEN MIXED DIVISION
1 01:16:44 Kai 'Opua x Open
2 01:17:49 Kai 'Opua x Open
3 01:18:19 Keauhou x Open
4 01:18:27 Tui Tonga x Open
5 01:19:53 Keauhou x Open
6 01:20:04 Waikoloa x Unclassified
7 01:20:12 Puna x Open
8 01:21:09 Keoua x Koa
9 01:21:37 Kamehameha x Open
10 01:22:06 Kai 'Opua x Masters 40
11 01:22:45 Kai 'Opua x Golden Mstr 55
12 01:23:45 Keauhou x Sr Mstr 50
13 01:25:20 Keauhou x Masters 40


#21 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 8:25pm


i say enough of these stupid ass penalties. line it up and when it looks straight, start the race. if you think that you in competition, youll be ready


#22 Mon, 09/07/2009 - 9:16pm


Kamehameha finished right behind Waikiki Beach Boys #8...I know this because I was in the Kamehameha crew...the start was messed up...an official boat came across front of the line with an official saying they were writing down numbers and gonna penalize crews 5 minutes..we were next the team Bradley canoe at the time..we started to back paddle and were just in front of the boat with the green officials flag, about 50 yards from the pack that was not backpaddling..then a guy on a jet ski rode by the canoes in front of us and was giving them hand signs to not move..seeing this we started to paddle forward maybe half way to the pack the horn blew and the race started...so I guess my point is this...everyone from Waikiki Beach Boys #8 with the expception of the 9 man crews finished in front of us...SIDE NOTE:...good job Waikiki Beach Boys #8...we ran them down, fought them, passed them, only to have them come back and catch us, we faught them off and put some distance on them...then again they caught up..we faught them off again..this continued till bout 3 miles to the finish when they could no longer be denied and finished right in front of us....GOOD JOB!!


#23 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 12:38pm


KaiOpua works hard every year to put on a Queen Liliuokalani race weekend that everyone enjoys, and looks forward to returning to.
For the most part we consider ourselves successful, but we know we can always improve.
At the coaches meeting the Friday night before the races we go over all the pertinent race information for both the Saturday and Sunday races. There is usually good attendance at the coaches meeting, but we know not every crew or club has a coach or representative present.
The starting procedure is always one of the topics of main interest and is described in detail.
As in most canoe races, there is an inside point and an outside point to the starting line. For Queen Liliuokalani wahine and kane races on Saturday, the inside point is the 40 foot charter boat Gameboat, and the outside point is the 35 foot charter boat Kai Lio. Each of these boats has a large green flag displayed. In between the two boats are 8 jet skis helping to keep the line straight. This is the starting line communicated at the coaches meeting. It is also explained at the coaches meeting that you will be penalized 5 minutes if you are in front of that line at the start of the race. Penalizing competitors in front of the starting line in any type of race is a common practice, and not unique to outrigger paddling. It makes it difficult to establish a course record if the finish line stays the same, but the starting line keeps changing.
The starting line of the wahine race was pretty straight, and considered a good start from feedback I got.
The men's start is typically problematic, to put it mildly.
While the starting line is between the same two boats, very few canoes recognize that line, and keep moving forward as more crews come out to the starting line after the completion of the wahines race.
Multiple attempts were made this men's race to get canoes to move back, and numbers were written down.
Some crews did go back to the official starting line, but of the 132 entries, about 100 of them were in front of the line when the race started. Right after the race started, we wrote down the numbers of the last 28 canoes. These were the canoes not penalized. It would have been impossible to get the numbers of all the canoes in front of the line, so we chose the back 28. We know now that we missed some of the canoes, and actually wrongly penalized at least one crew (Outrigger Koa), but none of it would have happened if people had followed the instructions given out at the coaches meeting.
In the men's nine person races, it was communicated at the coaches meeting that the first change would be 15 minutes after the start, and that the signal would be given over VHF 72.
In the mens race, 3 crews made the first change before that signal was given. They were also penalized 5 minutes.
As officials we are there to see that you have a safe, and a fair race. Whether you travel 10 or 10,000 miles to come to Kona, you deserve the opportunity to race on the same course as everyone else, and that the rules of the race apply to everyone.
To prevent these penalties we need to look at what causes them first.
Kai
Opua says mahalo nuii loa, and congratulations to all participants in this years Queen Lili`uokalani races.
We were honored to share our home with all of you.
We are open to suggestions on how to better our races, and if you have ideas please contact our website www.kaiopua.org.
Mahalo


#24 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 2:01pm


Nice post MikeA, the paddlers in the canoes should accept the responsibility for being in the right place at the right time on the starting line.


#25 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 3:12pm


Sr. Masters Keahiakahoe/Team Bradley and our small kine younger o'hana at Kailua Sr. Masters, did alot of back paddleing, etc. to keep our boats honest prior to the 9 man start. "drkanupaddler" is point on.


#26 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 8:17pm


Ok I understand that there is a problem with the start of the mens race. I understand your rules. But I don't understand why you are not trying something different to get a strait starting line. When you have over a hundred boats on the start line and you only have 8 jets skiis with every guy yelling different information how can we know what to do. We are essentially starting blind out there and being heard around like cattle.

I'm not sure but has the race ever had a buffer start like Molo. You start in the buffer then move into the start zone when there is two minutes to go. It might not be a absolute strait line but you won't rush over the start line.


#27 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 9:56pm


Generaly the officials try to do their best so Mike did the right thing trying to write down the last 28 canoes as not getting a penalty. With all the other canoes receiving penalties, the results weren't really impacted. I have seen starts on most islands and the paddlers try to push the line as much as possible to see if they can get a head start. Can't blame them. The Maui-Molokai OC1 men's race this year was the craziest start I have ever seen. But bottom line, the officials are volunteers and paddling is all for fun anyway so we need to all hang loose a bit more, yeah?


#28 Tue, 09/08/2009 - 10:36pm


seems that things have changed. the 1st story we got at the finish line was that 28 boats GOT a penalty, now it seems to be the opposite. we had friends at the finish counting the number of boats that finished ahead of us and the final results are about 4-6 boats off in #'s. not sure if its true just seems like conflicting stories from what was told to people at the finish line


#29 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 6:25am


Saturday was an awesome race for both men and women. Kamehameha Canoe Club Hilo races to have fun and to be competitive regardless of what place they come in. They were paddling aside the big dogs during the race and ended with them therefore if you are doubting their standings, you must of not finished in the top 20 crews. It can be hard to understand something you have not seen for yourself but when you get to the pier and a crew is already unrigging their canoe, that is PRICELESS!


#30 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 8:41am


Honeygirl-

I do believe that Kamehameha had a good race, but I do not think that their finish was a high as it was listed. Friends of mine wrote down order of finish and Kamehameha was not 9th, as well as some other canoes, that came across the line. Mahalo to Isrealsr who had mentioned that his crew that he had paddled with, Kamehameha, battled with WBB #8 through out the race course only to finsih behind them at the end which WBB #8 shows a 21st finish overall. Now, is WBB #8 finish were it should be, 21st? Perhaps higher than what it is showing? Was WBB, Kamehameha part of the 28 crews that were not penalized or penalized? Many of us are awaiting the computation on who were those crews that WERE NOT penalized to help us better understand the overall finish.


#31 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:12am


The Kona race and wild starts are the norm. Count on it, it goes with the territory. I've gone to the Kona race off and on (more on than off) since the 70's. I love Kona, Kai Opua and all that the Race has done for canoe paddling. Props to you guys over there. Its fun to read the posts. I can see the caous. That is part of Kona, 100 + boats, inching a little bit ahead, trying to get an "advantage" in a race that covers 18 miles, like that little manu, or canoe length going matter....go figure.

Hey Mike, props to you guys. Look at all the races that have little or no particpation year in and year out. There are posts on this site asking....begging paddlers to come paddle in their race. Yet, year in and year out for I don't know how many years now, Kona draws an AVERAGE of 100 canoes. Now that is saying something.

BTW, if you guys have a chance, go take a look at tahitian 689 video on the 6 man race around tahiti. In one video they show the starting line and start of one of the legs. Cannot believe how they all just sit behind the line and then start when they suppose too. I didn't see canoes trying to get an edge.

JawsOut.


#32 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:29am


Mahalo for your ideas Tyson and your observations drkanupaddler, kgb, and paddlefast,
We have thought about several ways to better the starting line. A staging area being one of them, a long line of floats or flags from the inside to the outside, multiple buoys or flags along the line, cameras, etc..
The starting line for the men is close to 1/2 mile long, about 2600 feet. The depth of the water 1/2 mile off shore there is nearly 3000 feet. Difficult to anchor anything. With a 2600 foot line of floats stretched between the inside and outside, there will still be currents preventing it from being straight.
We are always open to suggestion, but it still comes down to the crews recognizing a line, whether it is a staging line or a starting line, and many men's crews want to push that line.
If the information on how the starting procedure works is communicated to all participants, there should be no question as to where you are supposed to be at the start of a race.
If participants don't realize the principal of a fair start, why should they be allowed to cheat?
We don't want to disqualify crews that try to gain an advantage by shortening the race at the start, but it is unfair to those crews that do follow the rules and paddle the full distance from start to finish. A time penalty for a crew not following the rules still allows a finishing time to be posted rather than a dq.
Islandlife, we can't control what people say, but there were about 100 crews penalized. As canoes come across the finish line they are competing in the iron and the nine man races. There are nine man crews catching up to the iron crews, so you may see a crew finish that started 15 minutes after the iron crews, and the official order of finish represents the time of finishing rather than the order of finishing. In the iron crews, there was very little changing of the order of finish with the 5 minute penalty. Our timing software does not yet have a program to show the penalized crews, but we are working on it for next year.
We are always looking for ways to make our races better. Mahalo for your mana`o.


#33 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:33am


Mahalo MikeA, well said.


#34 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:54am


the best part of all this is we have a place like ocpaddler to have this type of discussion. thank you for the input and feedback. only positive things can come from this.


#35 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:56am


I have an Idea you know how you have those big giant speakers that blast music that no one really listens to but its loud enough to distract conversations. How about having a recording of info about the race rules, start time and telling people to pick up their rubbish. There are only so many people who can make it early to the race meeting. I wasn't one of them and I had no idea which two boats were the start line boats until I was on the water and got yelled at.

Again I can't stress enough about the lack of communication on the water between the jet skiis and the motor boats. The skiis are yelling at us to go back and say we have five minutes to start and then immediately the motor boats behind us have all these yellow flags going up. Nobody wants to have to start the race while their canoe is moving backwards.

And I know everyone says that a few feet don't matter off the start line but it is amazing that in a 18 mile race we some how always see two or more boats sprinting the last 150 yards to finish in front of the other. Like they couldn't of decided who was faster in the first 17.5 miles. Also the mind trip people get when they are starting behind when the race starts....


#36 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 1:25pm


Mike.

I was not at the race this year so I can't comment on what the problem was. However, if there were 131 canoes in the race and 100 of them received a time penalty for starting too soon then something must be seriously flawed with the starting system. Since there is no clear starting "line", the canoes establish their own line and do their best to line up. Once this line has been established, the officials should be prepared to start the race. What seems to happen is that the official starters are not prepared or not around when this line takes shape. After minutes go by this semi-straight line starts to change shape as crews creep ahead and eventually it turns into bedlam when someone yells "GO" and everyone within earshot takes off. This has happened so many times over the years that everyone expects it to happen and it takes very little provocation to initiate a "false start". I don't think that any crew intentionally goes out there to cheat or gain an unfair advantage. Everyone benefits from a fair start and everyone wants a fair start. Unfortunately there has been so much history with crazy starts in this race that everyone is prepared for the worst. No canoe is going to sit still when the canoes next to them start sprinting ahead.


#37 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 2:02pm


Slightly off-topic, but just wanted to note that according to my Garmin the Queen Lili‘uokalani is ~16 miles rather than 18. Other races have inaccurate descriptions as well. I know these races likely started before accurate distance measurements were as easy as they are today and the historical descriptions have been perpetuated.

Of course it sounds way cooler to say that you paddled 18 miles non-stop, rather than 16. ;)

[The course my canoe took the past 2 yrs is displayed here.]


#38 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 2:05pm


i know i'll prolly catch flak for this, but i like the chaotic starts of distance season. for slow guys like me it's the only time i get to line up next to the world's best. if my crew gets a really good jump, then maybe, just maybe, we get a lead on everyone for 10 or 15 seconds...

plus the bedlam and yelling etc is really funny. some of my fondest memories are of the screaming, panic, and stupid crap that happens in the pack right after the start.


#39 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 2:34pm


Rachel, "FYI" 16 nautical Miles is equal to 18.412 Statute Miles
Technically we are all right either way. Fun race...great weakend!
Marara


#40 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 2:37pm


Marara-- My GPS unit is measuring in statute miles, not nautical miles.

Yes, very fun race! My personal best by far. :)


#41 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 2:56pm


Maybe the silly boys should watch the women's start. Maybe not perfectly straight but we try. Good job everyone...16 or 18 miles.
Mikala


#42 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 3:11pm


I think the bottom line in all this is there is an established starting line for both the women and the men, but it is not recognized by the men. It is the same starting line boats in both races. The canoes were penalized for being in front of the starting line, they didn't start early. All iron crews start at the same time.
As soon as the jet skis and official boats go past a group of canoes telling them to move back, those canoes either stop right there or start moving forward again. Usually with some type of verbal response, so it can make it hard to hear.
Kai`Opua does it's part by explaining the race rules and passing out written instructions at the coaches meeting the night before. If people are not aware of the rules it is not because the effort has not been made to inform them. Announcing some of those rules Friday while rigging, and Saturday morning is a good idea, hopefully people will listen.
The women's race starting line is not perfect, but it is straight enough to be a fair start. I did a GPS measurement on the men's race also, and the crews that were in front of the line paddled 16.2 miles, the crews on the official starting line 16.6 miles. A 5 minute penalty makes the course closer to being even.
There are comments on this forum from very good, experienced paddlers. We appreciate that.


#43 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 4:07pm


Mike

What about Using little boats as your buffer zone. Use either jetski's or little whalers to mark your buffer zone out. They can basically have yellow flags for the back and red flags for the front. All your looking at doing is backing the line up until the race is ready to start. You penalize anyone who enters the buffer zone early and have your big boats lined up as the original line ready to start the race as soon as the boats enter the buffer zone. Just my two cents. Thanks for a great race this past weekend.

Jimmy Austin


#44 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 4:52pm


there is no way boats started .4? miles ahead.. thats the funniest thing i have read in awhile.

again mike thank you for the work but what we are saying was the back paddle word did go out. people were
back paddling and were told they had 5 minutes. 20 seconds later a yellow flag went up and the scramble was on.

not enough communication but we are used to that problem here in hawaii..


#45 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 5:17pm


As my crew was backpaddling, a jetski came by in front of everyone and told all of us to just stay where we were and the race was gonna start in little bit. Anyone else heard that guy? I figured if the jetski dude told us to stay, then where we were at the start line was all cool.


#46 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 8:47pm


only in tahiti have i seen a strait mens starting line. since they do exist in other parts of the world but not here maybe it is the salinity of our water. maybe we could add a bunch of ice to the water around the starting line to drop the salinity and slow down the creeping. better yet an individual starting gate mounted to the ocean floor for each canoe.
people don't need to listen to the pre race meeting to know you are not supposed to push the line. there are always boats with flags at kona to line up between, the line is just never back that far. the amount of jet skis they have should be more than enough. tahitians do it with one motor boat. in kona i would love to go when the line is strait, but then the 15 lame ass straglers will complain they never made it to the line. only one fix. Stop Pushing The Line! since that will never happen we should all just start the race whenever we feel like it and take the 5 minutes and smile. Queen Lilio is always one of the best shows in town. thanks for the hard work kai opua.


#47 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:27pm


Again 131 boats you get 8 skiis yelling different info and then you have a crapy game of telephone. It's a problem we know but if its not working the way its going then maybe its time to try a different approach.

I agree there was no way we were .4 miles away from that start line and I can grantee my boat could paddle .4 miles in under 5 minutes.

But fun race either way.


#48 Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:33pm


I agree , we might not have the best startingline, but we do have the funnest starts around. the line will take shape as always. if your there to compete, keep a cool head and keep your crew in the game. if we are all ready, theres no fuss.


#49 Thu, 09/10/2009 - 12:46am


I think the key is enforcing EVERYONE with a penalty that deserves one know matter who they are. Its pretty disgusting that a top crew would feel the need to to ignore a call to back paddle and fully deserves a penalty for it. People may bitch, but the following year maybe the line will be better knowing that the officials wont hesitate to throw the penalty. Its always going to be tough when you have crews who are 100% die hard psycho dedicated to performance on the same line as people who work just as hard but are more there for the recreation. Good job kai Opua for putting on such a large race. And good job Keauhou novice B men. A crew of guys who have never paddled and they truly dedicated themselves and hung with the best. I hope you guys make it back next year.


#50 Thu, 09/10/2009 - 3:50pm


"Its pretty disgusting that a top crew would feel the need to to ignore a call to back paddle and fully deserves a penalty for it"
I do agree with you jpi that supposed top crews HAVE TO follow the rules. We back water when told. But...if its a case of getting locked up on the start, running over amas and taking rigging pins out, knocking paddlers out of their seats with other canoes amas (this has happened to my crew in the past) then I would take the penalty to not be caught in the whole cluster fuck that could be the start of such a massive race. You can't control other people's boats so you must be defensive on the line. It's organized chaos AT BEST! The awesome volunteers from Kai Opua do there best and that is always good enough for me.


#51 Sat, 09/12/2009 - 9:14am


.


#52 Sat, 09/12/2009 - 11:59pm


I have to comment.

So top, aggressive, and highly successful crews who can

Train 20 hours a week, read the ocean, connect wave after wave, follow the directions of their steersman or women, handle all of the logistics of paddling and registration, and make precise and complicated decisions about effort, breathing, and technique are HELPLESS and have NO CHOICE when it comes to-

-Staying behind the line

I love watching the Tahiti race videos and the starts they have. Paddles flat on gunnels absolutely no movement

That focus and mental strength might be another thing to think about when considering Tahitian dominance.


#53 Thu, 09/17/2009 - 8:21am


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