So, after looking into maolivaa.com, I noticed in the pictures that Padling Connection were in a Mirage M2. Is that correct? That should make things very interesting for " canoe of choice " when it comes to Molokai Hoe considering the Bradley is the most visiable canoe out there and plus this was Paddling Connection?s first time doing the channel and first time in that canoe. If not mistaken, this was probably the highest of finish for the Mirage M2, better yet a Mirage, in the past 4 years.
Imagine if Karel Jr. steered Paddling Connections? Maybe Jr. can do what Tommy Conner once did.... steer a Tahitian crew to first place finish.
Submitted by anykine on Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:31pm
how can this remark not be taken as an insult by steersmen in tahiti?
jr. is a great steersman, but to imply that a steersman from hawai'i would be better suited then a tahitian one is kind of bogus. there may have been a time when tahitians were known for flat water paddling excellence. but the fact of the matter is now they are the best paddlers and steersmen in any water. this would be like telling team primo they need a new steersman to go paddle hawaiki nui or something.
#1 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:47pm
In fact, I'm ok to steer Team Primo for Hawaiki Nui...
#2 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 8:54pm
Can take a fart without starting up that old debate... give it a rest... I too wonder how much a great steersman would influence the overall result... Imagine if Manutea steered them or even better, imagine manutea steering Shell... Or the best yet, whom would you rather have steer your current crew, Manutea or Jr.? Shucks, thats a pretty tough one... for me, I would have either one, win win either way...
#3 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:01pm
Nobody wants me to steer ? ;-)
#4 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:08pm
Please do not get me wrong, Tahiti has by far proven that they can handle any condition and conditioning thrown at them, but What Tommy Conner had done for Tahiti before has created, perhaps, the Tahiti steersman to rise and take ownership of that seat.
With everyone riding Bradley because of the Tahitian influence.....maybe Jr. having a chance to steer a Tahitian crew in the Mirage/ Mirage M2 canoe could really make things interesting for canoe choice. Nobody is really using a Mirage nowadays. Only time is when there is a 2nd crew and there is only one Bradley available in the club or a club may not have the money to fund a brand new Bradley canoe.
#5 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:08pm
Mirage or Bradley it's all about commercial war... the Bradley canoe is originaly from tahitan canoe.. why those two canoes never end up in hawaiki nui ? what would it be if they came with their canoes, maybe differrent, I dunno, but definitely tahitian show us once again their skills and their power in canoe, but still we are polynesian... give the tahitian their respect... jah
#6 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:09pm
Paddling Connection just proved that you don't need a Bradley to be fast in the channel...
Tahitians usually paddle a Bradley because Sonny is always kind to them. Don't know why PC had a Mirage. Was it a choice they made or was it the only canoe available for them ?
#7 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:19pm
one suggestion, why tahitian never race hawaiki nui with only 2 model, like bradley and mirage for example, I'm not saying to use them, but choose just 2 tahitian shaper, so the race will be fair isnt? well that's what I think.
#8 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:23pm
Because clubs don't have the money to buy new canoes...
Some clubs race on a canoe built by one of their members.
Even canoes made by one shaper are differents one from another... Wooden strip canoes are shaped, not popped out of a mold...
We are perfectly happy with this. If you want to get limitations on the type of canoe you can paddle, then race in Hawaii.
In fact we have few limitations : It has to have a 'ama, two wooden iato, no fin/skeg/rudder, no foot plate (kicker), six seats weight 150 kg and only manual bailing is allowed, That's it. If you want to build a 100 feet long V6, you can... that's your problem. If you want to make it 250 kg, you can... If you want to put so much rocker that seats 1 and 6 are not touching the water, you can...
This open the door to infinite possibilities.
Often, Canoes are modified when the paddlers aren't satisfied with how they feel, they can be shortened, pinched, you can add or take away some volume in the nose ar the tail... FREEDOM !
#9 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:38pm
In my very humble opinion.... and in reference to the idea of having two types of canoe in the Hawaiki Nui:
Outrigger Canoeing is about the canoes. The spirit of it is the canoe. The sense of legacy and tradition that you feel when you paddle a Koa Canoe has less to do with the type of material used in the canoe, than what went into the canoe. It's from the immensity of the unbroken chain of canoe building and paddling that has been passed down for thousands of years to us as paddlers. In Hawai'i the outrigger canoe evolved, unimpeded, until fifty years ago. Paddling is not about all things being equal. It's the sum of all the knowledge of all paddlers throughout history. What gives us the right to put a cap on that knowledge?
The World Sprints is the correct type of format to show who the fastest paddlers are. The Moloka'i Hoe and Hawaiki Nui should be about a lot more than that.
#10 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 9:52pm
At the beginning of 20th century, Heiva (called Tiurai at that time) races in Papeete had virtually no rules... People from every village would gather for a whole month. All kinds of competitions : javelin, running, dancing, singing, coconut opening, biggest roots (potatoes), fishing, whatever. There were no real roads on the island, so they would come by canoe to Papeete and use witchever canoe they had to race. You could race a 3men against a 8men... doesn't sound fair... but as Luke said there's a lot more than trying to get all things equal.
#11 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:00pm
Hawaiians did this as well......race 3-men against 5 or whoever wanted to race.
#12 Mon, 10/12/2009 - 10:17pm
Thks Hiro for those information, it's always good to know.... but it was just a suggestion...just to get back to the main idea of the topic, all paddlers know that Bradley Canoe was made by a tahitian shaper, but all the commercial and benefits goes to Bradley and mirage, so why tahitian never get the opportunity to challenge those only two canoe, bradley and mirage? so on all I know it's easier to get a bradley and mirage, then a tahitian canoe, and we know most of the paddler prefer tahitian canoe... cuz they better look and faster, definitely... jah love.
#13 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 8:04am
don't forget that Mooloolooba won the senior masters division (over 50's) in a M2 and their time was also faster than any masters (over 40's) crew.
#14 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 7:59pm
Jah:
"all paddlers know that Bradley Canoe was made by a tahitian shaper"...
explain this comment please.
#15 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 8:28pm
Hmm, Luke, when you put it like that, nothing else really matters huh? Just paddling the race is all that matters.
I like that...
#16 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 8:43pm
The Tahitian steersmen have made huge advances in the last ten years. They now have as much skill in the open ocean as the Hawaiian steersmen and are much better conditioned which gives them an edge in longer races. If they were to spend some time in Hawaii and learn how to paddle the OC1 with rudders they would be dominating the OC-1 races as well. The first year I steered Faaa, 1993, I was 48 years old and physically past my prime but still had enough experience to be competitive. At the time, I encouraged that team to use their own steersmen but after training with them for a few weeks I realized that they were not quite ready and were lacking in confidence. The latest generation of young Tahitian steersmen are ready and have lots of confidence in their abilities. I would rank them equal to if not better than any other steersmen I have seen. I see no advantage to be gained by not using their regular steersmen in any type of ocean conditions.
#17 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:09pm
Only on advantage I see is they could put the blame on the Hawaiian steersman in case they loose.
#18 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:36pm
dacho:
Well, what I heard from people it's a steerman from the tahitian team "i mua nui", named Wong, but anoter man flew to hawaii and work on da mold.. I'll get the true story about it and write it down..
#19 Tue, 10/13/2009 - 9:55pm
Just reopening this subject. I would like to hear some comparisons between the 2 canoes. Lightning vs. Mirage2. I have only paddled/steered the lightning and loved it. very comfortable, easy to paddle steer and keep it moving, seemed to run well at angles to the swell too.
Jah Boy, waiting for your "True Story" From what I know Sonny does his own designs. Take a look at the progression of his designs from his first Koas to the latest Lightning.
#20 Fri, 10/16/2009 - 8:05am
hmm, i too kinda wondered what would have happened had jr steered a crew. not saying that tahitians arent adequate enough to steer this, but just seeing how some of the steersman here just know the water better. Like jr. I would say that it would be interesting to see what would have happened had he steered a tahitian crew because he's been here so long, and he's been steering the channel for a long time now and raced it many times in an oc1. I would imagine that jr would know it the best because he's seen alot of the kaiwis faces. Seeing as this year was flatter than normal, it would be good to have an experienced steersman be able to surf up and down with what bumps were there. HOWEVER, tahitians do quite well on their own already so it wouldnt make much sense to do so. It would just be interesting to see a hawaiian steersman in a tahitian canoe.
Also, hiro on bradley and mirage....thank you. For all those people who say bradley is way better than mirage and goes faster. Us people have a name for you. Youre called a hypebeast. Next, shell is gonna come down in a bathtub and win in record time, and then thats gonna be better than a mirage too then huh? tahitians rule either way, it doesnt matter what they paddle. thats just how it is.
#21 Sat, 10/17/2009 - 2:28pm
I said that Paddling Connection showed that you don't need a Bradley to be fast, but I don't want to offend Sonny... If he needs my club's canoe for Team Bradley's training the days before Hawaiki nui lady's vrace, he just have to ask, The girls can get whatever canoe they want ! hehehe
#22 Sat, 10/17/2009 - 5:59pm
i mean i dont mean it like that. its just that everyone is on this hype like the bradley has magical powers that makes EVERYONE goes fast. im not saying its a bad boat, its just the tahitians are GOOD. if you put them in a mirage 2 they would do just as good either way.
#23 Sat, 10/17/2009 - 6:09pm
You did say " a bathtub" ! ;-) hehehe
#24 Sat, 10/17/2009 - 6:52pm