EONO HOE 2010

CONGRATULATIONS to all the competitors in the inaugural EONO HOE - Molokai to Oahu IRON race!
1st Place Team Kamanu
2nd Place Livestrong
3rd Place Team PAA
4th Place OCP Mafia
5th Place Outrigger

*unofficial!
Outstanding presentation/event, Manny and Staff! Wishing you the best!

Submitted by lono on Sun, 05/23/2010 - 3:17pm



do you know who was in the first team kamanu boat?


#1 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 3:44pm


Justin watts
Billy pratt
Luke Evslin
Scott hendricks
Travis grant
Jimmy Austin.

Congratz to both Kamanu crews, and everyone else who finished. Congratz and thank you to Manny for moving the sport forward and the comfy couch!


#2 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 4:04pm


any info about the different classes and divisions?


#3 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 4:32pm


Times?


#4 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 6:04pm


Not sure exact times. Kamanu was around 3:55 or so? Livestrong 10 min after?

Pa'a was an HCRA spec hull. Outrigger Connection M2 I think. Not sure on time.

4th place was OCP Mafia. Our time was 4:17

That's all I know except that I'm super duper tired.


#5 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 6:16pm


Could someone tell me what place overall the first "traditional" 400lb canoe finished please.

Was Pa'a M2 full weight?


#6 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 6:20pm


Read the post above again clarkie he tells you that Pa'a was in a spec boat,and Outrigger connection were in an M2,
That means that Pa'a must have really motored, or does it mean that it still comes down to the paddlers not the weight of the canoe?
Who paddled for Pa'a?
In any case congrats. to all participants sounds like it was a great race.


#7 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 7:26pm


Thats one mean looking canoe


#8 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 7:49pm


Kevy, you can read the post a few ways . I think Jc is saying Páa was in an Outrigger Connection HCRA Spec M2. Outrigger Canoe Club's canoe is not mentioned in his post, but they are listed on the race entry as Spec.

So yes Clarkie, Paá was in a full weighted 400lb Spec boat.

Someone correct me please if i'm wrong.

R


#9 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 11:26pm


think you got it Rambo.


#10 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 11:25pm


Jc do you know the time between 1st and 3rd?? I'm guessing between 10 and 15mins.

Thanks


#11 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 11:28pm


i think the time between 1st and second was 10 minutes. not sure about third. i think 4th was 5 minutes behind 3rd.

4th had a time of 4:17, that's the only number i know for sure.


#12 Sun, 05/23/2010 - 11:34pm


Excuse my ignorance Kev. I am sure there will be lots of theories going round trying to work out if the light canoe gives the edge or is it hard training and a great crew. I don't know any of them personally but I have followed Kamanu Facebook with great interest. On canoes, we have a lightweight Mirage, and for a junior crew there is a significant advantage to float higher in the water, perhaps not so much with the big boys. Will be good to get all the feed back from all the crews and manufacturers.


#13 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 1:02am


@Clarkie - time for a family trip next year ? I am sure you can book some seats next to Rambo.

How did the Lanikai and the Kailua teams do ? They are all in great shape this year.


#14 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 7:06am


Results and article.


#15 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 8:07am


Changes for the future??!!

Couple of thoughts-

International clubs will attend this race more than the Molokai Hoe ?? I think so.

Molokai Hoe crew numbers might go down.

Will Molokai Hoe racing organization allow an unlimited class? Don't know-Would love to hear what their leadership is thinking now.

California shows us how different canoe classes work, but slowly the new designs will take over as time goes by. Malia class-gone Bradley Class- fading out. So yes I see the demise of the HCRA specs and canoes.

Will these OC racers cost upwards of $20,000 to buy off of the shelf? You bet.

Racers want to be the first across the line -no matter what. Winning HCRA specs is fun, but not as fun as being first across the line.


#16 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 9:55am


Also can I have the science again. I know we did this before-Engineers please help.

Same OC-6 Canoe design, same conditions(flat, no wind, no tide) same paddlers-force.

400 pound canoe completes course in 1 hour

300 pound canoe completes course in ???????

Mahalo Plenty


#17 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:24am


Don't forget the 1000+ lb crew Kona J (and ama/aikos etc) These lighter canoes do not paddle themselves so Iron will still be harder !


#18 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 4:20pm


This is probably the best website I've seen that describes the problem. The boat they use to derive the final equation is definitely not an outrigger canoe, but at least it gives us some idea.

http://www.rice.edu/~hofer/library/weight.html

Their hypothetical boat/increase in weight is
An example: assume an VIII, total weight 800 kg (=8x80kg rowers, 50kg cox, 100kg
boat, 10kg oars). An extra 10 kg (=22 lbs) represents 1/80=1.25% increase in
weight. So the boat moves 1.25/6=0.2% slower. Over a 6 minut race (eg 2000m)
this corresponds to 0.6 sec, or 4m (about 1/5th of a boat-length )

So if we take 1100 pounds for paddlers, ama, iaoks, etc and 400/300 pounds for boat we get
100/1400 = .0714. .0714/6 = .012. So the 1500 pound boat would be 1.2% slower than the 1400 pound boat.

So the 1400 pound boats completes the course in 60 minutes. The 1500 pound boat completes it in 60 minutes 43 seconds.


#19 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:02pm


What hasn't been brought up is how a 200lb reduction in canoe hull weight will benefit 6 lightweight crew as against 6 gorillas.

Not just the drag component but the whole shebang, surfing and all the other dynamics of inertia vs weight.

Same 200lb canoe, who will win 6 Danny Chings or 6 Danny Sheards??


#20 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:05pm


Rambo, I reckon it would depend on the conditions - flat/small, lighter guys have the advantage; opposite for bigger/lumpy conditions. Other opinions?


#21 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:15pm


I recon it's the other way around Hasto...

R


#22 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:24pm


i think i never want to paddle a 400lb boat again.


#23 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:38pm


Not sure how much Danny Ching or Danny Sheard weighs but water floated craft always benefit heavier people more .(power to weight ratio is less important than more overall power) so get into the gym and lift some weights !!


#24 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 5:46pm


Six x 40lb difference = 200lb

Assuming DC is 165 and DS is 205

That is another hull weight


#25 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:14pm


Let's also assume we design the canoe specs especially for a crew weight as well.


#26 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:17pm


if water floated craft always benefit heavier people then why are all the past oc-1 molo champs medium-built? pretty much same for the 6man, the top crews are mostly medium built guys who are in terrific shape. if what you're saying is true than why don't we see crews of 220-250 pounders winning any molo 6man or oc-1 races? karel,kai,danny,jimmy,luke,kelly,kea,manny and aaron aren't real big dudes. power to weight ratio is the most important thing when it comes to speed, be it canoe racing or drag racing. look at the horse racing jockeys, they probably weigh like 90lbs.


#27 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:25pm


pure power always wins , and these Guys mentioned have great skills too , are any of them afraid of getting stronger.. at the expense of being heavier ...I think not


#28 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 6:34pm


anyone got pix


#29 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 7:20pm


Arn't things lighter in the water? When it comes to glide, which canoe has the longer glide: the heavy one or the lighter one?


#30 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 9:08pm


for one thing, you don't have to get bigger to get stronger. if pure power always wins, why does lauren kick guy's ass who are physically bigger and stronger than her? why does a 16 yo. kid from hi-kai named kainoa darval-chang who's lucky if he weighs a buck30 finish top 20-30 against the top paddlers? ever heard of riggs napolean? bruddah weighs about 80lbs. and in the races i see him beating adult paddlers who are waaaay stronger than him. all the top paddlers cross-train; cardio,weights,etc. i have yet to see any of them become or attempt to become "joe body-builder". yes, power is a factor, but it's power to weight ratio where it counts.


#31 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:48pm


Any heavier object (canoe,person,car etc) will have more momentum and Glide better , it would of case take more energy to accelerate it to that speed. It is the bouyancy/drag efect of water that helps the stronger (even if heavier paddler)

#32 Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:54pm


for one thing, you don’t have to get bigger to get stronger. (agree completely, and if you can stay lighter even better)
if pure power always wins, why does lauren kick guy’s ass who are physically bigger and stronger than her?(her greater skills and "feel for the water")
why does a 16 yo. kid from hi-kai named kainoa darval-chang who’s lucky if he weighs a buck30 finish top 20-30 against the top paddlers? (his greater skills,again feel for the water )
ever heard of riggs napolean? bruddah weighs about 80lbs. and in the races i see him beating adult paddlers who are waaaay stronger than him.(got to put that power into the water ! )
all the top paddlers cross-train; cardio,weights,etc. i have yet to see any of them become or attempt to become “joe body-builder”.(body building is all about looking bigger ,not necessarily able to do anything in particular)
yes, power is a factor, but it’s power to weight ratio where it counts.(weight{muscle} is not as bad as you think)
example from me_ how does a big guy like Oscar chalupsky compete with much smaller paddlers ? (good feel for the water and the water supports his weight) he is not running or riding up a hill !

Tue, 05/25/2010 - 6:48pm


#33 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 12:05am


SLBRTH,

Thank you so much

I asked

"Same OC-6 Canoe design, same conditions(flat, no wind, no tide) same paddlers-force."

Your answer

"So the 1400 pound boats completes the course in 60 minutes. The 1500 pound boat completes it in 60 minutes 43 seconds."

Awesome. I would also say maybe another second or two to get the initial inertia to start the canoe.

Aloha


#34 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 5:07am


Actually.... every (good) boat is designed with a load weight in mind.
This allows for modeling flow, glide, etc - where the waterline is.

So a smart boat designer (regardless of type of boat) figures out what the likely (target) load is and models based on that.
Other boat designers just design the boats - but even then, there ends up being a target load to get to optimal waterline etc. It's just kind of random.

So, in theory, you could design an unlimited class OC6 with a target weight of 6x 200lb paddler or 6x 150lb paddler.

Now.... if you had two equally well designed OC6s with the two different target weights described above - which would be faster? Hate to say it but it depends not only on the paddlers but also the water conditions and type of race (particularly its distance).

What I'm trying to say is that the "heavier is better" idea isn't absolute. It's a lot more complex I fear.


#35 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 5:55am


I weigh 220 lbs....I paddle with guys who weigh in at under 180 lbs. If I am on a larger volume canoe or the exact same canoe used by friends...just sitting in the water with our backs to the trade winds...the winds will push the lighter weight paddlers at far greater speeds then the wind will push me. There are some really strong bigger guys out there but they cannot compete downwind with paddlers of less weight... A bigger guy is very competitive upwind or in neutral conditions.. Tractor pulls....definitely.

We are dealing with displacement hulls. The more weight in the canoe the more resistance. The lighter canoes will benefit the lighter crews especially downwind where maximized glide gained from wind and swell may be more important then paddle power. Momentum gained from extra weight would apply more to a planing hull.

Thanks Kamanu....you have made us gorillas redundant.


#36 Tue, 05/25/2010 - 7:39am


Hey, everyone!

I have some great images from the race. You can view and download at

Http://proofs.martamedia.com

check em out!

Marta Czajkowska
www.martamedia.com
805.403.9753
czajkowska@mac.com


#37 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 1:34pm


k

Kamanu has really outdone all other OC6 builders at this race with its rapid development time and I think brilliant engineering.
i prefer some aspects of the HCRA which allow for canoes which are similar, but then again I am also very interested in technological developments of the sport. i'd always support Molokai Hoe under HCRA, but maybe they could look at reviewing some of the rules in light of this race.

I hope Kamanu take their designs to Tahiti with a top crew... but I think Hawaiki nui also has canoe specifications?


#38 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 3:42pm


but I think Hawaiki nui also has canoe specifications?

As far as i know the only specs are weight ...130kg. So all they would need to do is add lead.


#39 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 4:10pm


What do the Kamanu canoes weigh?


#40 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 4:17pm


As a psuedo member of the Mafia. I am a little dismayed by the lack of photos of the mafia. It seems the green canoe gets all of the glory.

I guess as the Navy Seals say-"It pays to be a winner""

or the mafia likes to stay under the radar.


#41 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 5:59pm


sorry no pics yet, we're slow to recover and begin the blogging again


#42 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 6:23pm


150 kg hull weight for Hawaiki Nui, not so light.


#43 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 7:46pm


Info somewhere gives weight of one new Kamanu 6man as 320Lbs............which is a whole 6Kg's lighter than a Tahitian minimum.


#44 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 8:29pm


Kona J, if you're on Facebook just do a search for OCP Mafia on there. There are almost too many pictures...

Even a short video clip.


#45 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 8:30pm


This is a great thread. I say add 6 kg to either Kapa'a or Kawainui if they need it and go make more history at Hawaiki Nui 2010. I hope they don't get bashed and rammed to the point of near sinkage though, I hear that race can get messy around the turns.


#46 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 9:06pm


Kapa'a is lighter than Kawainui and would require more than 6 kgs to be legal for Hawaiki Nui Va'a... I'd guess it'd need about 50 or more.

Here's a couple pics for you Kona J - MAFIA!

Photobucket
Photobucket

Photo credit: Jeff Allen


#47 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 6:08am


I was chatting with Uncle Bobby by the timing tent on Sunday. When the Mafia came in on Kapa'a, if I remember right, he said it weighed in at 240 lbs. I could be wrong, but that's unreal!


#48 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 10:10pm


but I think Hawaiki nui also has canoe specifications?
As far as i know the only specs are weight …130kg. So all they would need to do is add lead.

Wrong. Hull must weight 150 kg (330 lps) and you're not allowed to add more than 30 kg ballast (66 lbs).
So if your hull weight is under 120 kg (264 lbs) without ballast added then it's not legal...

320 lbs = 145 kg --> add 11 lbs of ballast and you're in.
240 lbs = 109 kg --> add 24 lbs of carbon fiber and resin... then add 66 lbs of ballast...


#49 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 10:35pm


And that's exactly what you sent me 6mths ago when i asked you Hiro, just couldn't find where i stored it and Hawaiki Nui Va'a website rules documentation doesn't mention the weight.

Thanks for the correction, so many specs now it's confusing. We should all just go unlimited worldwide.

R


#50 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 11:15pm


Like you to get that through AOCRA Cecil, they won't let us use our lightweights at 130kg for a couple of years...bummer.


#51 Wed, 05/26/2010 - 11:54pm


I think I got pictures of the teams up to the corona boat, saw the boat, got thirsty and left. Let me know what boats you were on or know people was on.


#52 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 12:11am


Unlimited!!! Yeah! I buy that, even for V-1? What they scared? Go for it - no worry, the OC-1 no going beat you, unless get rudder? And the water big - not flat.


#53 Thu, 05/27/2010 - 1:26am


"Unlimited!!! Yeah! I buy that, even for V-1? What they scared? Go for it - no worry, the OC-1 no going beat you, unless get rudder? And the water big - notflat."<

No one else is prepared to comment, so i'll take a stab at it.............for a 6man with 'unlimited' weight of 100 Kg and built in foam skinned composites, sure, i'm all for it. But this weight is still 16Kg's pulled by each paddler, which is not super light.
At about double the cost of a solid skin fibreglass hull, the PVC cored number is going to have the competetive edge going downwind in big water, but not much if any advantage when no bumps to ride.

A 10 Kg V1 will hang together for about as long as as a shorter sit-on OC1 at about 8 Kg's. But will cost about twice as much as a very basic,or even a wooden V1. So there are going to be a lot of potential paddlers who would be tempted to rather buy a surfski .

If the unlimited weight of a 6man is reduced to 6 times that of a superlight V1........say 60Kg, then you can be sure that the cost is going to be plenty more than the 100Kg "unlimited" 6man.
Just how long a 60Kg 6man can hang together in big water is the really interesting thing.


#54 Sat, 05/29/2010 - 4:43pm


Everyone keeps complaining about the price of these "unlimited class" canoes. How much do you think they're going to cost? I'm betting it's less than you think... PM me if you're interested in one of KC's 100 kg surf machines. They're Channel tested to stay together, and (I'm guessing) cheaper than you think.


#55 Sat, 05/29/2010 - 6:15pm


To Scaryslow:
"I was chatting with Uncle Bobby by the timing tent on Sunday. When the Mafia came in on Kapa’a, if I remember right, he said it weighed in at 240 lbs. I could be wrong, but that’s unreal!"

I helped load the two KC boats and when the Kapaa was still on the trailer I could lift one end up over my head by myself. Unreal light canoe.


#56 Sun, 05/30/2010 - 6:53am


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