Hurricane to Pueo | OCPaddler.com

63...no wait...217. Yup 217.

#1 Wed, 04/28/2010 - 3:11pm

All of them :)

The Hurricane is still the fastest of the commonly paddled OC1s when it is flat.
The Pueo overcomes some of the 'shortcomings' of the Hurricane - seat comfort, downwind, rudder response.

#2 Wed, 04/28/2010 - 3:12pm

Pretty hard question to answer Barts as paddlers who are now on Pueo's previously paddled many different canoes. I don't there is a definitive answer unless you ask every Pueo owner. I know of a paddler who has a Pueo & has kept his Hurricane for the flat water.

#3 Wed, 04/28/2010 - 3:35pm

O.K. Jumping in with a question / request for you guys opinions ...

What does the Hurricane need to make even better or to overcome its shortcomings ?

Besides the seat that is.

aloha,
pog

#4 Wed, 04/28/2010 - 3:42pm

onnopaddle - single foot well and move it forward - more space, better trim. Wider ama - Waveblade style. ( works )
Different, slightly thicker rudder or rudder position ( this one didn't work for me, moved 12 inch forward, then 8 inch back again ).

#5 Wed, 04/28/2010 - 3:56pm

eckhart, the new huricane (prototype) has all the features you mention, same ama thou, plus has foot brace/strap like surfski. Excellent downwind.

#6 Thu, 04/29/2010 - 7:33am

joe - in case you are involved in building the prototype: I widened the ama by 1 1/2 inch, back half, raised the front by about 3 inches; then moved the rocker back a bit to have a flatter section below the water. It ended up looking like a Waveblade ama section, a little less square than the Pueo ama. All this shortened the waterline and worked well.
Lowered the deck under the seat by about an inch. The seat is free, not encased, not needed for the Hurricane. Ama and boat are at my house in case anybody is interested. Overall it ran through three major changes and a fourth one is planned, reworking the foot well one more time. Later the iakus need to be changed - they are the main head ache when you extend the foot well forward. You come close to hitting them.
The carbon iakus tend to break over time, maybe they should be made out of aluminum.

By stroke count the boat was 10 % plus more effective after the changes. The handling in the waves was better due to the lower center of gravity, too.
However, response to steering in bigger waves is/was not satisfactory. The Pueo rudder maybe all that is needed.

The project came to a halt as the control of the Pueo in the open ocean was better in my opinion. The hull of the Pueo is rounder and side waves seem to roll/pass trough under it without much disturbance. The Hurricane reacts a little more to side on waves. This makes a difference in Kailua Bay conditions when the wind waves get bigger in plus 10 knot winds.

The work on the surfski took up all the time.

Brad Cole has another mold for the ama, 1/4 inch more width.

#7 Thu, 04/29/2010 - 8:45am

Eck, can you post some pictures??

#8 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 12:10am

On the left; on the right a 'learning' model, resting in peace. On the picture the stern is oriented away from the viewer.
Single footwell; pedals are fixed. Seat area lowered. I have a mold for this deck, just in case ...

(Seems you have to be logged in to see the attachment = pic )

#9 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 10:18am

Wow! Eckhart!! You're too much! Man, you really go all out to tailor fit your canoes to your liking and satisfaction. But after all that hard work, you prefer to go jump in a surfski? I don't understand, for they catch a different wave? Anyway, years ago, Jim Foti whipped our butts in a rudderless Hurricane off Kaisers during a very windy and choppy day. The Hurricane handled the stong wind and the buoy turn very well going out, where most of us got blown off course and banged around. Returning for the next lap, he just surfed away. Watching him paddle that rudderless Hurricane back out in sloppy conditions impressed me. Too bad V-1's and the Pueo were not around then, for it would have been very interesting race. Have you paddled your Hurricane and Pueo without the rudder? Yes, I understand the canoes were not designed to be paddled rudderless, but sometimes a cable gets cut or a rudder comes off, and we are forced to do so.

#10 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 9:48am

10% increase in efficiency?

so in a four hour race you would be 24 minutes faster than before just by switching canoes? or are you saying that you will take 10% less strokes over the course of a race but finish with the same time? i need these improvements. please explain.

#11 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 10:03am

Yes jc9, 10% of four hours is 24 minutes. That is a freaking HUGE bump in speed. I doubt that most people could better their times by 10% with an entire year of dedicated training... Looks like we've been wrong this whole time - if you want to be faster, screw the motor. It's all in the boat.

#12 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 10:09am

The increase in efficiency was measured as follows: two buoys at a fixed distance are the test course.

The strokes are counted going down, turn around, count strokes going up.
Repeat often. All conditions.
So you get downwind stroke count, upwind stroke count, total count.

Example:

if the stroke count would be 29 going down and 31 going up, total would be 60.
After changes 25 going down, 28 going up, total 53.

That makes more than 10 %.
It is relatively reliable when you do this count often. Time trial upwind downwind over 6 mi confirmed the improvement. The time was ~ 54:30 for 6 miles across Kailua Bay and back; and as far as I remember times before the change were just above 1 hour; it's a while ago meanwhile.

This increase in efficiency can be explained by the fact that the trim was way off, no surprise there. If you are close to intended height and weight, you will not see this much increase, if any.

Sorry, Goto, you are such a good paddler already - your only chance to get 10 % plus faster is a surfski. :)

#13 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 11:02am

koakanoe, a surfski does what an OC 1 wants to do :). They are both fun.

One of the reasons pro surfski - they are made for a displacement up to 300 lbs - they tolerate weight a little better and the trim seems a little less affected by height and weight.

After paddling the Pueo for ~ 27 mi Maui Molokai last year, - enough about sitting behind the sweet spot. The conditions were so good that day. It is not by much, but over such a distance you feel it. Long distance paddling is beautiful, but it doesn't make sense to race without good trim.

The Hurricane gets much faster without rudder. It is no fun with side winds. Kamanu's V1 has much better control and is faster.

#14 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 11:19am

koakanoe - current project. The picture doesn't do it justice, it is one beautiful boat, surface finish will take about 4 more low intensity work weeks. When you see this boat, you will just think 'oh, I want one like this', unless you are immune to beauty - just kidding, of course.
It's a mix of different models and design features that I like, surfski and OC 1. Very low deck aft, low deck fore, a little higher then V10 L ? - not sure. Very, very narrow entry - maybe too narrow ?
Maximum inside width allows for more okole than common race models, It is ~ 17 1/2 inches.
Cockpit moved forward quite a bit, again for the trim.
Also scooped out the deck just behind the seat to avoid people fracturing the vertebrae in the lower spine should a big wave turn you over - has happened before.

I had one test run. Drain did not work well, so I can't really tell about performance, and I am not a surfski expert by any means; but the quartering of the waves was very promising.
And no hulis - so far.

#15 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 12:13pm

Ecky, not to alarm you and it's not a good angle to judge from but just a quick question. At the sides of the bucket at it's thinnest point where the deck meets the hull, have you built in to the design the fact that this point could be the weakest point if the ski were it to try and fold if the nose or tail was lifted violently. It's just a question, as you know i'm no expert either, just something i spotted but hard to tell from 1 photo.??

R

#16 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 3:22pm

Shape reinforces itself > if that makes sense Rambo but yep, still needs a little bit extra. ... Like the bow and footwell, this area is a pain to deal with ... You have probably seen many boats with cracks here ... Especially if the seat is not well supported from below. The seaming flange ends up right here too so get reinforced by default sometimes ... depending on design.

aloha,
pog

P.S. Waiting for some shots in the daylight Eckhart : )

#17 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 4:01pm

Rambo,

Any comment on above question about the Hurricane mods. ? Vs the. Peg ???

Thanks in advance if you can.,
alohha,
pog

#18 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 4:02pm

Yep agree what you said Onno, my concern was that Ecky stated he made that area wider so this would i think put more stress there, even if it was only 1" or the angle changed. Once the seat sides start an outward movement it's a pretty quick failure. Knowing Ecky, he will have thought all this out, but just checkin.

R

#19 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 4:08pm

Yeah onno, pretty much what Ecky did to the Hurricane was documented on my website when i gave reasons to switch to a Peggie and probably prompted Ecky into action. The link is here http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/search/label/oc1%20review

Ecky also had the additional issue of being long legged which as you know doesn't suit the Hurricane. But wow what a successful canoe has the Hurricane been well before it's time and still the fastest Oc1 for smaller paddlers in moderate conditions. I still have mine and love it. The Hurricane Mk2 has an awesome base to build on, it could lift the bar again.

Rambo

#20 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 4:19pm

Hi Rambo, good to hear from you and thank you for your concern. The picture is just a quick shot, the boat is floating, not ready to show really.

The hinge towards the back of the seat has multiple carbon triangles patched on, filling the angle; a four fold carbon band runs across just at the back of the seat.from side to side.

The seams are carbon reinforced inside( flange) and outside (band).

It may break anyhow, the right wave can do it, but I want to limit the impact to be able to get back to shore should it ever happen. Stringer is in there.
Bow not too strong, but very narrow; seam with 6 ounce glass band outside; I may patch some carbon in the critical area, not sure.
The seat is resting on foam pieces.

The seat bucket sides are directly glued to the hull, for the better or worse, on both sides. That may be a problem or just right, my guess is that it is ok.

Layup is, outside-in, 4 ounce S glass, 4.8 carbon , 1 mil coremat , 4.8 carbon. Vacuum bagged.

The rails are a little low, the bucket takes up some water when tipping; thus the rails will be raised and that should give more structural strength again.
That may impair the beauty of the line a bit, but functional goes first in this case.

What would be your solution ?

#21 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 6:11pm

onnopaddle - the Hurricane modifications make sense for my height and weight; an average paddler would not need them, in my opinion.

If you consider changes to the hull you would end up with a "Peggy, Osprey or Pueo - like" hull - not worth it.

#22 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 5:56pm

Sounds like you have it covered Ecky, just wanted to be sure. Hey i have a photo of a full kevlar ocean ski smashed by a huge wave and bent in half at the bucket, now looks like it has a massive rocker but the guy paddled it home no leaks, amazing. Bent almost 90 degrees.

Must find it.

R

#23 Fri, 04/30/2010 - 7:47pm

Sounds like too much rocker ... Many people build part Kevlar, certainly for River canoes/kayaks. No clue how it behaves though.

#24 Sat, 05/01/2010 - 4:11am

Sounds like too much rocker …

No the wave was big apparently, the guy makes lots of ski/oc1/ OC6 etc visits here quite often, Actually asked him for the photo last nite but lost in a PC crash. Have another source though, but he's in Hawaii at the moment.

R

#25 Sat, 05/01/2010 - 12:47pm

Was that a big day on the Goldie? The pennie just dropped who you are talking about, there will be a picture in an old post on Ausoutrigger Cecil.

#26 Sat, 05/01/2010 - 3:34pm

Was, but dead links on zulu boys old website

R

#27 Sat, 05/01/2010 - 6:02pm

Lat's sent them to me Before and after.

He also said ski was vacuum bagged Vinyl ester/coremat/double Carbonkevlar . The Kevlar saved it.

#28 Sun, 05/02/2010 - 4:41pm