I ride a Zephyr and feel like I'm trimmed by the stern when paddling. (6' / 250lbs) I had a shorter seat but it felt uncomfortable with my knees so high. I've thought about waterlining the canoe with me sitting on it but not sure that will do any good without some kind of baseline to compare it to?
How can I determine how the canoe is trimmed with me in it?
Submitted by waterfun on Sun, 05/09/2010 - 8:42am
I have the exact same problem with my hurricane- the thing sags toward the back in the water. I would like to cut out the footwell and move it farward 2-3 inches. Has anyone tried this- if so what does it take to do it?
#1 Sun, 05/09/2010 - 7:28pm
Marara, my friend - you sound like you're looking for a 10% increase in speed! Good luck!
#2 Sun, 05/09/2010 - 7:42pm
Goto- I'm just wanting the thing to work better. I only noticed the sag when I let a friend use it. Now it pisses me off that i been paddling all this time and only now noticed how bad it is. I'm not sure you can tweak a hurricane for a ten percent gain or if the effort is even worth it - probrably beter increase the training and buy a new canoe for a guarantee 10.
I still would like to know if anyones trid to move the peddles forward and what it takes.....Marara
#3 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 5:17am
Ok, Ok - Goto does not like the 10 % number, so it seems - it is actually more than 10 %, provided - and stated before - that you are tall and heavy, which would suggest that your trim is way off.
Marara - we just had this in a thread a few days ago; I posted a pick of a Hurricane with a changed foot well.
Other taller paddlers have done it for other boats. They were all happy with it - what percentage of gain they had - I do not know.
It is worth it if you paddle often, long distance and in races and intend to keep your boat for a while. It is always worth it to adjust the trim.
End next year there will be more OC1 with adjustable pedals.
#4 Sun, 05/09/2010 - 8:34pm
Any surf ski maker could bung in a new footwell for you.
#5 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 2:50am
If you don't want to customize the boat, add some small weights in the front to get the trim to where you want it. This is what goto does, but because he uses protein shakes he's back where he started at the end of the paddle…
#6 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 3:13am
Okay, I'm not trying to hijack this thread, but what would you think would be the amount to add for weight? I paddle a Fusion (big water boat for a flat water paddler - that's my motto!) and I've always wondered about trimming it out with some added weight. I would assume I could use less weight the farther forward I put it, but then I'm wondering how i would attach it, or what kind of weight. I'm definitely not smart enough or skilled enough to start moving my seat and footwells forward....
don m
penticton
#7 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 5:37am
Thanks guys. I thought about the weight idea but first want to determine for sure that I'm trimmed wrong.
So back to my question: How can I determine how the canoe is trimmed with me in it?
It feels like I'm paddling uphill all day...I just want to prove it, and that will lead to how much correction to make (adding weights or footwell movement)
#8 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 6:43am
You would have someone mark the water line with tape stickers at bow and stern while you sit on it.
Have picture taken while you sit on it.
Compare with others, I guess. Or add weight and take pictures again and compare.
Trim should be slightly bow down at rest, that the boat comes up to level when you paddle.
Weight - sandbag, 2 lbs for starters, tape to deck close to bow.
#9 Mon, 05/10/2010 - 11:58pm
I'm not sure if this is a factor , when your in mid stroke the canoe will lift in the front and the back will sink a bit . and even more so when your first taking off.
#10 Tue, 05/11/2010 - 6:13am
Another simple method is to mark the hull as Eckhart suggests then sit on the front of your seat with your knees in your face and just see if you get some more glide between strokes. You can't paddle that way but if the canoes runs smoother then you are not in trim in your normal position. You need flat still water, you could use a canal at high tide if you can't find anything else. Take the rudder out, sit the canoe on a flat surface and measure from the ground up with a ruler 2 or 3 feet from either end and make a series of marks up the side of the hull. Someone on the shore has to give you feedback. Eckhart is absolutely correct when he says trim nose down. My XM just happens to fit me perfectly but that is just an accident as there is nothing I can do to trim it without getting out the grinder. If you have long chook legs like Eckhart it can be a real problem and the only sensible option is adjustable foot pedals. One day someone will put them in.
#11 Tue, 05/11/2010 - 5:41pm
Thanks Guys,
I came to about the same conclusion while paddling off Hanauma bay this afternoon. Heres what I plan to do:
I will remove my seat and paddle all the forward with my knees in my chin. Then move back until I find a sweet spot, I will use a grease pencil to mark that spot. Then I will put the seat back in and mark that spot. Then I wll take this scientific data to the carport to be analyzed with a few green bottles.
This is a lot easier then my wifes idea (losing weight)
Mahalos!
#12 Tue, 05/11/2010 - 6:04pm
Do NOT move the footwell forward. Instead you can just have your legs shortened, that will do the trick.
#13 Tue, 05/11/2010 - 8:23pm
I think Eckhart has tried that Hiro.......................
Waterfun, if you get the trim right you can drink as many green bottles as you like! It will help you catch waves when you throw your guts forwards!@#$%^
#14 Tue, 05/11/2010 - 9:58pm
Okay, with all this talk about trimming the boat I gave it a try. I took an ankle weight (we use them as ama weights for our juniors in the OC-6) and draped it over the very front of my canoe. It was a flat water day, so there was no need to secure it, which is good 'cause I haven't figured out how I'd do that.
Right from the first couple of strokes the boat felt smoother, quicker, easier to accelerate. Then I thought, "what the hell! how am I ever going to know for sure. Nothing's ever exactly the same on every paddle. Maybe it's faster 'cause I think it's faster!"
I'm not as smart as Eckhart, but I had all these ideas of how to measure which would be most efficient. But maybe just thinking I'm faster would work. If not, when I get beat by "Just Paddlin" I can always blame my boat's trim (like I already do....)
don m
ex Canucks fan
#15 Wed, 05/12/2010 - 7:06am
Shortening the legs is just one of many options; I believe it is easier said than done. Don't try this at home and make sure you measured twice before you even consider this. While it has the added bonus of weight loss, I strongly advice against this option. I am not sure that there are any data out there that we could quote.
Another way to look at it: if your boat goes real well uphill and seems to drag downwind, then it might be trimmed stern down. Add weight until you think uphill is still ok and downwind feels better, that might be a good balance.
Paddling better also seems to help - when surfskiing you are forced to apply power very early in the stroke and release early, you also improve your balance and rely less on the ama. Big difference - you go faster with less effort.
Kahuna - paddle between two buoys and count strokes with or without trim change, upwind and downwind - that should give you a pretty good idea, too. Or just GPS, if you have one.
#16 Wed, 05/12/2010 - 12:22pm
Use water bottles for weight and tape them to the boat in your favorite spot. That'll give you an opportunity to fine tune by dumping water in the amounts necessary without dragging sandbags around.
1.5 cents contributed.
#17 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 7:04am
Good idea. That was easily worth AT LEAST 3 cents, painteur.
#18 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 7:07am
Yeah, but the bottle is worth 5 cents... Does that make the tip a -2 cents, net?
#19 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 8:33am
Good point hanshead. I assumed he was talking about a reuseable water-bottle, (i.e. Nalgene, SIGG, Klean Kanteen, or other some such...) especially in light of comments made on the separate water-bottle thread here on OCP. If this were the case, the value of the water-bottle would be factored in differently for each user depending on number of water-bottles owned, and usage habits. Therefore, to simplify the equation, I excluded the potential water-bottle value. I tried to imply that the value of the tip, (AT LEAST 3 cents) was variable for each reader, most likely correlating to above mentioned water-bottle habits.
My original intent was to compliment (thanks numerouno!) painteur on his idea. I hope that this post, although a bit wordy, conveys that message.
#20 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 8:52am
Compliment appreciated thank you very much. The whole shebang gets only complicated if you start trimming by drinking the water. Water then just moved from bottle to bladder (potentially a 2-3 foot distance) muddying the results.
There is another half penny.
Here in Santa Monica Bay you can just pick a floating bottle from the usual trash in the water and recycle it when you are done measuring.
Shoot I just made a nickel.
#21 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 12:17pm
painteur - great idea - do you fine tune with your bladder content ?
#22 Thu, 05/13/2010 - 2:10pm
Depends on beer intake Eckhart.
#23 Fri, 05/14/2010 - 6:01am
What if nature calls? Would this mud the results?
#24 Fri, 05/14/2010 - 8:02am
That would be a question for our poopoopaddler expert.
#25 Fri, 05/14/2010 - 8:05am
This brings up another question, would this be considered doping?
http://www.google.com/search?q=urine+therapy
#26 Fri, 05/14/2010 - 8:32am
why would you move your footwells forward? thats $$$ out of your pocket when loosing weight is FREE :). i paddle a zephyr too, but im about 6'2" 160.
#27 Fri, 08/13/2010 - 12:57am