OC chines

OC chines.

I would like some ffed back and thoughts on OC's with chines. Do they work , do paddlers notices the differences. An what current OC's have them?

Submitted by boss on Mon, 12/20/2010 - 4:52pm



oh god please no...


#1 Mon, 12/20/2010 - 5:25pm


fuze........


#2 Mon, 12/20/2010 - 5:46pm


Yeah ! chines...


#3 Mon, 12/20/2010 - 7:57pm


My everyday old dependable Naia get chines, but they stay on the deck.


#4 Mon, 12/20/2010 - 8:25pm


This can't be real ... LOL.

aloha,
pog


#5 Tue, 12/21/2010 - 1:55am


Wtf are chines?


#6 Tue, 12/21/2010 - 8:57am


Legal Speed Enhancers ! Only seen on specialized racing hulls!


#7 Tue, 12/21/2010 - 10:52am


O.cs and surf boards are both planing hulls, I have read some shapers say that hard rails will cause water
to be released from the hull while surfing; compared to soft round rails where the water wraps around and sticks.
At the angle of heel while flying the Ama, could that be the reason Outrigger Connection puts those chines there?
.


#8 Tue, 12/21/2010 - 11:37am


Wtf are chines?

Chines are those two soft angled edge lines that you see on the bottom of the current Outrigger Connection OC-1's and OC-2's. At lower speeds they don't really do anything, but when the hull speed increases, they are meant to help "lift" the hull for better planing.


#9 Tue, 12/21/2010 - 12:17pm


Could it be a chine deficiency which is causing my boat's anemic performance?


#10 Wed, 12/22/2010 - 4:13pm


I heard extenze will make your chines grow


#11 Wed, 12/22/2010 - 5:23pm


OK ,,, I`m back ,, sorry to have been away so long . These days I teach more on facebook than any other website . Sorry to have left you people hanging for so long ... I apologize .

I`m arguably , a chine expert , having spent thousands of hours on outrigger canoes and surfskis that are moulded with chines ..

So here we go again :

Chines do work as intended by the designers who require them to be incorporated into thier hull design . There is no magic in them and at flatwater cruising speeds , have no effect in performance .
Where chines make a difference is at the upper end of the canoes performance envelope . At higher speeds the chine equiped boat will have better release than a round bottom hull. So, the paddler who can get on a wave and stay there will be able to focus on steering and positioning on the wave where the non chine equiped paddler will have to work conciderably harder just to keep the boat positioned .

The chine effect has best been presented by Karel Tresnak Jr. when at his best he can out surf anyone in the world with ease. Race results over the years have shown this to be the truth , not simply a matter of opinion.

Kai Bartlet of Kai Waa a few years back posted what I think was one of the best descriptions of "chine effect" Ive ever read . Karel was behind in the early going of the Molokai one man race but once he began to catch waves , it was all over but the downhill slide to the finish . Karel came smokin from behind and passed every world class padder as though they had shoved it into reverse . Karel moved through the field with an advantage to be sure .. Some say the advantage was just his ability and had nothing to do with the chines . I tend to doubt this and the reason is because of the fact that Karel is the worlds finest downwind paddler and his boats are optimized for his way of paddling. Clearly if he didnt think they worked , they wouldnt be on his boats. The chines DO apparently work and work well for him and they can work for you too .


#12 Thu, 12/23/2010 - 2:12pm


just like the old days.


#13 Thu, 12/23/2010 - 4:52pm


I believe it. Just check out the results for the Toys for Tots race. Suppose those surfskis had chines, would they have been able to keep up?


#14 Thu, 12/23/2010 - 8:38pm


Fuze - chines have an effect on flat water performance; a chined hull is not the most efficient hull shape because the chines add a little to the wetted surface area.

Other than that, I agree with your argument.

The effect is not well understood - at least not published anywhere on the net. Some article suggested that a chined boat would have better tracking downwind on a wave face.

Kai and Karel have the advantage that they paddle customized boats; they have done the R&D themselves.

Recently I started to customize the boat that I am currently paddling and moved the foot plate almost 6 inches forward - 2 inches to finally be able to stretch my legs while paddling, 4 inches to get into the sweet spot.

Smaller paddlers still sit further forward than I do now, but with a higher weight the boat starts to pearl if you move up too much.
There are still some issues with too much water in the foot well, but the boat now feels as if it is not stern heavy anymore and it definitely has improved performance in the water that I am paddling in - it is faster with less effort.


#15 Thu, 12/23/2010 - 11:48pm


eckhart diestel, As usual you speak the truth , people should pay attention and learn from what you say on here .

Heres some more truth for you people : The Outrigger Connection Zephyr is a VERY refined , big water , downwind boat . Its evolution is not yet done though . For some unknown reason , all builders of Hawaiian canoes have missed the boat when it comes to installing adjustable pedals in the footwells the way its been done on surfskis for many years . The notion of having a fixed seat is the way to go for a designer but, if the pedals arent adjustable you are going to have a badly aft cg if your foot peddals can`t move forward and you have long legs. This is pretty basic math if you ask me . Too many builders of outrigger canoes cheap out in the area of the cockpit, everyone paying attention knows this is true. Velcro holding the seat down on a $4000. boat !!! come on !!!

You people may also know that there is a builder working on a new canoe with a surfski type cockpit . I`ve been kindly asked not to name names on this topic yet so, I will honor that request by keeping my mouth shut for now.

Nature wil take its course and boats will improve as long as there is a market for them ,,, You people should go take a look at your current outrigger canoe , if it has fixed foot pedals , rest assured your wait will be short for a MUCH improved boat .. Don`t doubt me . Hold onto your money and wait for it , patience is a virtue you know.


#16 Fri, 12/24/2010 - 3:55am


/\ Amen to that boat coming out soon with "on the fly" adjustable footwells. I also know of that boat wich should be aval hopefully by Febuary 2011 with 2 lay-up choices.

Actually just paddled a OC-1 with adjustable footwells built in, not retro fitted after the fact. The abiltlity to instantly move back for big bumps is amazing. This will be a game changer hopefully.


#17 Fri, 12/24/2010 - 6:10am


Chines!
It is good to have another arrow in my quiver of excuses!
My chines were too small/large (to be filled in as needed).
The more I know the less I have to practice since I can justify my anemic performance. ;-}


#18 Fri, 12/24/2010 - 9:18am


Fuze,

Totally agree on the adjustable seat AND pedals ... Gotta do it.

About two years ago I suggested to Greg Barton that if they made a canoe, their reputation would support and lend to the new boats 'street cred' Hope this is what you are talking about.

Merry Christmas.
pog

captcha works of the day.

Pordage, govievy


#19 Fri, 12/24/2010 - 10:04am


The OC 1 with adjustable pedals can be seen on the beach here in Oahu on occasions.

The larger foot well creates a problem though - more water. I have the same problem on my own modification, set up for possble adjusting foot plates as well.

I am surprised how much different a few pounds of water in the foot well make for performance. When you get swamped it is really slowing you down. That has to be solved, too.

Adjustable seat is also not that easy because weight shifts in the center of the boat do not change the trim very much.
And even if you move forward - the hull under you remains the same. So you have to be lucky not to change the characteristics unwillingly too much.


#20 Fri, 12/24/2010 - 1:21pm


"On the fly" and "instantly move" really? If these systems are anything like the surf ski adjustable footplate assemblies I've seen and used they are far from "on the fly" and "instantly."

A well desiged system can be pretty quick and easy, just have to back out some thumb screws, adjust position, and tighten the thumb screws. The rudder cables are self adjusting, but not all do that easily. Even in a well designed working system it still may take a minute or two.

Is there some new innovation in the OC1 market for footplate adjustment that is quicker?


#21 Sat, 12/25/2010 - 4:21pm


Stop paddling to adjust seat or footwell would likely negate any advantage of having them adjustable. Dreamin""


#22 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 1:02pm


This one seemed 'instant': pull up a center rod, slide into position, let go of rod; cables - spectra - followed without hesitation - I'd say two seconds.
Not sure how long it will take in the open ocean, can't imagine it would take much longer.

The rail is mounted on the center beam, not against the sides as in surfski.


#23 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 9:47pm


Sounds doable Ecky but just one more thing to go wrong. Then again i don't have long legs.

I love the simplicity of a Velcro fixed seat does the job, easy to change in relay races.


#24 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 10:04pm


Hi Rambo, it's a new model that will be out pretty soon. I happened to be on the beach when it came back from one of its first sessions.

We have new boats here right and left - ok two models - one on Big Island, one on Oahu. Nice looking boats, we will see how they do.

My own .... is doing much better after the mods, my guess is up to 5 %. Surprisingly, it is also MUCH better upwind, even though it was fantastic upwind to begin with - no idea how to interpret that.

Karel's new OC 6 is quite beautiful. It is technically challenging to build such a light boat. It has a honey comb core; there is a certain way to get the carbon layers to stick to the honeycomb, not an easy task.

Maybe that's why Pa'a sticks to 200 lbs rules ?


#25 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 10:17pm


I saw this "adjustable" OC-1 last week Tuesday (Dec 21st) on the back of a Ford truck sitting next to me waiting at the stoplight at Hamakua Rd. It was all white and it did look pretty interesting. At first I thought it was a surfski, but then I saw the mounts for the iakos, the seat pocket and the ama sticking out on the tailgate.

Besides their new lightweight OC-6, expect a new OC-2 coming soon designed/targeted with flatwater in mind.


#26 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 11:03pm


Yes the new OC canoe sounds like a real challenge to build. When i was at Molokai Hoe this year i interviewed Karel snr at the Outrigger Club for the Doco and he said it was something Junior wanted to do so he said let's do it.

Keep the info flowing Ecky as you know more.

R


#27 Sun, 12/26/2010 - 11:08pm


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