If we want open designs to really take off I think this is one of the routes that need to be utilized. The more we support these 6 man races the more people will have them, then they will get more exposure and eventually that will result in to more money to the sport. If you own a 6 man or can get your hands on an open design (or traditional boat) then bring out your boat and show that their is demand for these races.
Now that more races are allowing open designs; I for one will have better options and a better argument to get sponsorship money from businesses. This will help us all.
Submitted by healthyearth on Wed, 10/20/2010 - 3:49pm
Just curious, how does an open design open the paddling world to more sponsorship? I like the idea of open designs, as I'm curious to where this can lead, but leading to more sponsorship dollars? I'm missing that.
#1 Wed, 10/20/2010 - 3:56pm
Open for open ... But we need to agree on some set stuff to keep it from becoming an Arms race.
aloha,
pog
#2 Wed, 10/20/2010 - 4:24pm
i think last year's 'eono may have proved that it is not entirely about budget.
on one side you have a crew that hired a world class boat designer to design a beautiful canoe, skinned it in carbon, made a radical new rigging and ama system and finished second.
on the other side you have a crew made up of guys from a local canoe shop with a couple ringers in a canoe built almost completely out of foam and fiberglass. this boat used a conventional mana ama borrowed from an O'ahu canoe club, utilized some volunteer workers, was finished on the beach the morning of the race, and finished first.
score one for the small budget.
#3 Wed, 10/20/2010 - 7:23pm
Good point Jeremy!
#4 Wed, 10/20/2010 - 9:52pm
Yep, on that. Love it >>> gotta give credit. But not just 'some guys' pulling something out of their buTTs either. ...
Just for discussion sake ... What would you guys ( everyone in general : ) think and say if a boat showed up with a rudder for example.
This is what I mean by "agree on some stuff"
aloha,
pog
P.S. I hope everyone on the board kicks in some opinions and shares open thoughts and ideas on this thread.
#5 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 7:57am
this is a good idea. i think alot of people will dig this, and I'm sure some won't. i would love a 200 lb. canoe to pull out on race day. Having lighter boats as an option would reduce the injury factor a bit and make it hella fun to paddle. The rudder option would be kind of cool too, you could go even faster without having someone poking in back. The possibilities are intriguing to say the least.
#6 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 9:14am
What does budget have to do with open designs acceptance?
JC9, you allude that Kamanu Composites' supposed lack of budget as compared to Livestrongs as being much more admirable because they won the race. However credit should actually go to both teams for taking a chance to revolutionize our sport. Because one team has a substantially larger purse doesn't mean that they love the sport any less.
This sport will eventually grow as interest develops and people realize the benefits. Credit & assistance should be given to Kamanu Composites, Livestrong & Paa for taking our sport to the next level.
#7 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 9:24am
sorry, i should be clearer in my alluding. Kamanu had the cheaper boat but the stacked crew. Livestrong had the bigger budget with a not so famous crew. in this case the athletes trumped the budget. nothing wrong with either way of doing it. throughout history people have enjoyed rooting for the underdog (myself included). in this case it was fun for me to see the boat built with less cash take the race. perhaps it is my non affluent background that causes me to feel this way. i personally can't help but notice a crew getting off a private jet on Moloka'i (there is nothing wrong with that) while i'm waiting to hitch a ride to the beach. if i had the means i'd save myself the hassle of buying tickets and flying on go! as well. maybe it is the fact that i had a hand in helping build the Kamanu boats. maybe it is because i personally know the Kamanu guys and consider them friends. i'm one of those people who always roots for someone to beat the Yankees or the Red Sox, the Jordan Bulls, the Lakers, or Shell. they are all great teams and can be admired for what they are. as evidenced by their finishes, Livestrong is undoubtedly one of the best local teams.
#8 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 10:47am
C'mon now jc9er, the pueo contingent featured top notch paddlers and builders on BOTH crews. It just shows how important friendship and all that shit really is to succes in the sport.
#9 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 10:49am
not so sure about that James.
but to stay on subject i'll say this: obviously this is good for our sport. the next 'Eono is around the corner and here we are talking about it. obviously this race has injected money, interest, and sponsors into the sport of paddling already.
i can't wait to see what appears on the beach at Papohaku from Livestrong, Kamanu, and any other builders. come may 22nd, 2011 i'll be there!
#10 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 11:08am
6 seats, 1 ama,
propulsion : single blade paddles, no double blades, no sails, no kites...
must float even when swamped.
for me that would be enough.
#11 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 11:36am
JC9, totally understand where you're coming from. I'm not a part of Livestrong BTW but have very good friends that are on the team. I'm also a very recent owner of the a newly aquired Pueo- which by the way is the best canoe I've ever owned made by guys that provided me with the best customer service hands down! I admire that both teams are striving to take the sport where it is badly needed.
Despite the budget and sponsorships, It's awesome that the first E'ono provided the stepping stone to possibilities in our sport. It's certainly generated a lot of interest in design and paddling in general. The Tahitians should also be thanked for the inspiration that is leading this wave of new technology. I feel that there presence although a threat, should be viewed as what is possible through determination and focus.
#12 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 12:26pm
That race was fun.
#13 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 12:54pm
How much did the 'Alala cost to build? I think I heard roughly $15000 per Kamanu canoe. I'm assuming a good portion of that was in some of the more technical stuff they (Kamanu) did for those designs?
Put another way, are the raw material costs comparable across these various designs?
I also like Hiro's suggestions for base rules, and would maybe add the main hull can't be stable without the ama, otherwise what's the point.
#14 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 1:00pm
"obviously this is good for our sport. the next 'Eono is around the corner and here we are talking about it. obviously this race has injected money, interest, and sponsors into the sport of paddling already"
On an aside, not only has the impact of what Kamanu, Livestong, PA'A et al have attempted been noticed in Hawaii, it is also making it's way to California. There is currently an unlimited division being discussed for the 2011 SoCal season. (Granted the discussion was started by guys with ties to Kamanu.)
It's good to see that so much of the paddling community is so willing to finally openly discuss and consider the option of unlimited canoes where discussions may have previously been put to rest with cries of "tradition, tradition" in years past.
I think we can all agree that there needs to be some "limitations" to rule out nonsense like motors, rudders, sliding seats, kites, foot straps, etc. But dimensions like length, weight, volume, and so on should be open to possibility.
An adequate comparison is the relative newness of SUP racing. The design variance and considerable design possibilities have woken-up the creative spirit of many paddleboard shapers, surfboard shapers, OC1 designers, and in at least one case, yacht designers. The newness and open possibilities of an unlimited outrigger canoe class definitely has the ability to awaken the creativity of some very gifted people.
Love it or hate it, it's exciting to watch it unfold and the works of art that will result from it.
One final side comment since the topic of sponsorship was brought up. To me there were two huge events in 2010 that will aid in generating new/more sponsorship money into outrigger canoe paddling in Hawaii and the mainland US: 1. The PA'A 'Eono Hoe & 2. Ocean Paddler TVs live webcast of the Molokai Hoe.
Good year for paddling.
#15 Thu, 10/21/2010 - 4:33pm
Six as One,
As far as I understand, seats can be adjustable right now, even on the Koas. Disclaimer: I asked a reliable source on this, did not read it.
NOT saying this as a challenge more as to just draw out your and others thoughts on everything....
Tons of different ideas and perspectives as to what "Unlimited" could be ... Lets put tradtition aside just for this moment.
Just throwing this stuff out there >>>> NOT endorsing it.
Why not ???
Rudders ?
Footstraps and adjustable foot blocks ?
Adjustable on the fly ama ?
Adjustable skeg ?
Bailers ?
Any size / length / waterline / # of paddlers.
Wincing and hiding behind a rock now, >>>> unlimited, unlimited, unlimited, chant still going.
Kites ( but not sails ) ?
Double blade ?
Multihull ?
Double ama ?
Please don't nail me to the cross, just putting this stuff up. Some of it just doesn't seem right but this is what am talking about ... There needs to be a designer / builder consensus or gentlemans agreement on what can or cannot be done. Maybe even a basic "formula" for Va'a and paddler # just to keep things from becoming awkwardly freakish for these newborn years. With these guidelines in place I believe things would progress FASTER.
Seeing a bunch of different designs of all shapes and sizes would be cool but its gonna appear like this http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AcBUSVxs82w/S6uQj-uSoVI/AAAAAAAAbcU/oyv9T5OWwD... to potential sponsors IMHO.
aloha,
pog
#16 Fri, 10/22/2010 - 9:58am
Auwe guys ... Is that all you got to say on this topic ???
Builders afraid to let 'secrets' out ?
aloha,
pog
First time I ever bumped a thread I think ...........
#17 Mon, 10/25/2010 - 9:13pm
"Small Budget" = In house world class canoe designer and and already existing shop for canoe building. I dont really see where the small budget is? Livestrong still built their own boat, which they had never done before. With an average crew age of just over 40 versus an average crew age of maybe 25?? Id say it was a pretty even day in the water when comparing athletes and budgets.
#18 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 7:27am
It's funny how quickly the conversation goes from a higher purpose of growing the sport to a arm wrestle of egos.
I'm not sure how to read/decipher some of these posts, but I will try.
Healthyearth is saying that we all need to get excited about building our own unlimited designs and that there needs to be more races with open designs so that he can justify the cost and provide more impressions for sponsorship.
Some don't see how open designs would help sponsorship. Others are concerned that those with the deepest pockets will have the advantage and would like a way to stymie that possibility.
JesusChrist9 proves that budget is not the issue as much as having good friends with skills and mafia connections
Jim and JP second that
Everyone else seems to be trying decide what the rules should be for the Unlimited Designs, or why should there be rules if it is "Unlimited". I agree with Hiro.
And to reply to Tokos question,"why would unlimited boats get sponsorship."
IMO, successful fundraising comes when individuals or teams stand for something and truly believe in a cause or a dream. Pushing themselves to new levels, creating a magnetic energy that others want to contribute to because they also believe and relate to the same desire to not settle. Pa'a Eono has that energy.
At the end of the day I would like to see a great battle out on the channel with boats made by the paddlers that paddle them, in a line that makes sense (kuluakoi), getting the most mileage possible (iron), and opportunities for teams to come together outside of clubs and politics.
#19 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 9:23am
Well said, Joe. Nice synopsis, and I agree with your conclusions as well.
#20 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 9:39am
The best thing to come out of the 'Eono is that canoe associations see the possibilities. They are deciding that they want to be a part of the movement towards furthering hull design. From what I hear CORA, PNWORCA, and SCORA are all working towards modifying thier race rules to allow unlimited hull design. As soon as next year unlimited boats could be seen racing in every association based in the pacific.
I say everyone wins.
#21 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 9:45am
With this in mind, now is the time to call and check in with your association to add your input, thoughts, ideas and support.
Personally don't care so much about the money stuff as much as the new designs and how its gonna jumpstart some fun opportunities for boatbuilders.
aloha,
pog
#22 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:02am
Ditto. Stoked to see where PAA is taking the sport and Kamanu and Livestrong - among others - are just going all out with it. I dont even do 6man but races like these are way more exciting to follow. Looking forward to a multi day Hawaiian race.
#23 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:03am
Oh yeah, Never thought of that ... Stage racing over a Sat./Sunday.
Wife is stoked to know she and her girls will go faster than ever before possible AND be able to pick the the canoes up later.
aloha,
pog
#24 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:13am
Rodgah dat! New designs are inevitable... Agree with you all.
However, who will spearhead the change in Hawaii? The established organization will never allow this to happen. Just ask Bill Rosehill....
#25 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:21am
Didn't have to ask ... Bill TOLD ME ... LOL. I am thankful to Bill for sharing info with me.
Paint the target right here Waa ... Hoping all the folks who read but don't post much will chime in and or glean info from what is being discussed and pass it along.
Center hub of discussion OCpaddler.
To repeat above. Get everyone involved, set some basic guidelines so builders know where to start so to speak and move forward. "Where to start" = What CAN and CANNOT be done / used.
With these in place we can all move forward with our designs, builds and outfitting..
aloha,
pog
#26 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 10:39am
Aloha gang,
I have been working on the Pa'a 'Eono Hoe rules and guidelines for 2011 which will be a slightly modified version of the 2010 open design rules. I know that there are builders at work here in Hawaii and throughout the world, and I've been getting a lot of input from them. I will post within the next few days so that we are all on the same page.
Mahalo for supporting our advancements,
Manny & PA'A crew
#27 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 1:39pm
Mahalo six to one for the mention. Our goal has always been to bring attention to the sport and crews to the world. Contrary to what some may believe, we are not getting rich doing this. The money it cost us to do what we do is ridiculous. When we do get paid, we barley break even and many times go over budget. Bottom line the more airtime these races get, the better chances companies will see the value to advertise with us and sponsor crews. We hope!!
Terry
#28 Tue, 10/26/2010 - 7:33pm