Performance assessment in canoe paddling: Sperlich method

Too much numbers and words. no tink, no talk, jus paddle.

#1 Sun, 02/07/2010 - 8:07am

Hi Jim,

" no go make olympic wit no tink, no talk, jus paddle " :)

#2 Sun, 02/07/2010 - 8:31am

aloha Gange,
my 2 cents would be, to find that balance betwen INPUT and OUTPUT.

#3 Sun, 02/07/2010 - 12:15pm

Mario, that should be pretty easy for competitive sports:
input - train as good as you can; output - paddle as good as you can.

#4 Sun, 02/07/2010 - 1:43pm

eckhart, i was more refering to balance all the Technic theories (input) and paddler preformances (output). meaning by this, to GO HAND IN HAND. your links are great, mahalos for sharing.

#5 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 1:27am

Hi Mario, greetings to Buenos Aires; for OC 6:

wireless video goggles with life feed - ideally with force curves overlay: you can see yourself paddle while you are in the boat.
The coaches can correct via audio and the force curve gives instant feed back what your paddle is doing.

Cost for wireless video goggles with transmitter is about $ 500.

If you add force curve analysis you will need to add a few thousand dollars.

I don't think that you could train more effectively.

The cheap method: close your eyes while you paddle - not too long :) - it gives an excellent feed back - often quite different frtom what you think that you are doing.

#6 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 12:20pm

Put your paddle in the water and pull back hard.

#7 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 5:12pm

Closing your eyes. Hmm. During a somewhat nasty Kailua Ironman Race, I am reminded of when Rene Connors' semi prophetic husband suggested that I close my eyes prior to getting a major facial in seat 1.

#8 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 6:22pm

Jim, mulus, KGB - I will retire from this thread and this message board again.

http://www.surfskiracing.com/

#9 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 10:10pm

Closing my eyes is when I attempt to do those proprioception feedback drills paddling my canoe without an ama. Chance em!

Anyways, before you retire again Eckhart: Figure 3.2-D Kinematics in Sprint Canoeing of the Sperlich article, pretty much sums up the canoe stroke mechanics. ie: the blade stays put, while the position of the paddle shaft changes as the canoe pivots passed the staionary blade.

You are into surfskis? Now that explains everything. Good luck in the double bladed world.

KGB: With Eckhart on a surfski, that means you get somebody for go paddle? The buggah is fast, for he went beat your double big time. Anyways, go spend the money and go get one of them new kine skis for you can sit real low and get the splash in your face w/o closing eyes. Your S and G Bennett paddles are now classics, for they no make em anymore. The big "G" is worth gold. Now time for get Harold back on skis, for Eckhardt just might be setting a new trend?

#10 Mon, 02/08/2010 - 11:20pm

Not sure if this was up here or not already ....

More science tools.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2203885.htm

Side note on surfskis ... Koa, More 'older' guys from over there calling me and pulling stuff out of the bushes to use again !!!

aloha,
pog

#11 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 9:02am

Onnopaddle,

That is simply cool. It would be a simple tool to help refine the stroke and see perhaps in training sessions what is going on. I wonder if it could be sync to see how well about is timed together as well?

#12 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 9:17am

koacanoe - we have contacted Dr Sperlich and he responded very kindly. Maybe something will come out of it.

I would not be surprised if Surfski would resurge and complement paddling in Hawaii - Pat and Ryan's enthusiasm and Olympic dream will carry over, Rambo's videos at 'Rambo's locker' introduce the sport.
And there a lot of senior paddlers on the islands who are very good surfski paddlers.

I started paddling surfski about 8 ? weeks ago - it can be learned quite easily even in Hawaiian waters.
OC 1 experience helps a lot.
The speed is amazing - I keep saying to myself - "ah, that is what Karel Jr is doing" - he does it on an OC 1, amazing. Racing OC 1, surfskiing may help that, too.
Balance is not an issue after a while, except for in very agitated conditions. You can stay on the ski, but it is not really that much fun.

We may need some affordable Hawaiian skis.

#13 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:16am

You vill have a serious paddling discussion und you vill ejoy it!

#14 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 9:55am

...

#15 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:21am

Pat and I were just with Dr. Sperlich last week in San Diego at the Olympic Training Center. While I cant quite explain the "in's" and "out's" about it as well as Eckhart can. I can say that this type of technology can be very useful information for a paddler because it gives you information on each stroke / each side. The information on how much power is being generated per stroke/side, but more importantly how effectively you are applying your power. If you look at the pics that Eckhart attached your curve should spike from the power applied then become flat at the top (meaning your maintaining the power and getting the most possible work) and then drop back down rather than just a very steep spike in power and an immediate decline. Like someone said before a high school foot ball team could win because they can bench 300 lbs. Not true, if their curve is not right (meaning they can generate all the power in the world but have no clue for what you hear a lot about "feel for the water" which I think is a simpler used term of how well you're applying power on and through out your stroke.)

All in all, testing and video analysis can be hard to get ahold of but is very beneficial. But at the end of the day it will only work if the paddler takes things into their own hands and tries to work on their problems or flaws. Maybe its with the help of a coach, eyes closed, video or whatever.

#16 Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:39am

Ryan: Have you and Pat, in addition to Olympic K-1's, K-2's and K-4's, done any training on those Olympic C-1's or C-2's? I'm just curious as to how such high knee training might be beneficial to outrigger paddling? Or even SUP? Or even maybe surfski?

#17 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 9:16am

Thanks Eckhart, another insightful angle.

How would one go about measuring their kinetics/bio-mechanics?

#18 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 12:23pm

joe - a strain gauge is attached to the paddle and measures the strain. A force curve is generated onscreen.

This force curve tells you maximum power, where in the stroke you apply the power etc. .

This curve and a video are shown together and are analyzed. Paddle entry angles etc. can be measured.
In rowing they analyze the posture of the upper body as well with motion sensors.

Example:
For a certain K 1 Olympic final all data for a paddler were ananlyzed in this fashion and compared with the competition. The team decided that to win the gold medal, the paddler would have to slightly increase the stroke rate during the second half of the race.
The paddler was able to do that and actually won the gold.

For OC 6 you could overlay six paddlers force curves at the same time and determine exactly what is happening.
Such things can be done live on board of the escort boat and the coach can make changes directly, with instant feed back.

I find all this interesting; it does not have much to do with the pure joy of paddling - I guess that's what mulus, Jim - may mean with their comments - but it only makes sense to improve trainings methods if your target is to win the Molokai Hoe.

The equipment to do this sort of thing is not more sophisticated than any smart phone.

For the pressure measurements you need a strain gauge with a recording system, a data logger.
For video you have to decide what frame rate you want for your analysis. For a lower rate and
lower resolution you could use spy systems that people use in model aircraft - a camera, a transceiver,
a transceiver on the computer, and a computer.
Professional software is the most expensive part of this - up to $ 5000. There are some open source projects that can do these things, but I think that you have to invest a little more time with those before you get the data you want.

#19 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 4:19pm

I was just joking. The use of these methods is essential at the highest levels, and would be cool for average joes, too. I do believe that there is no better tool for evaluating certain things like team chemistry and blend than the human mind, however.

#20 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 4:28pm

Check out merlingear.com. They do a data acquisition paddle for DBs. Very cool, only problem is the $2700 price tag.

#21 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 4:36pm

A smartphone is actually able to do the computing:

gps
heart rate monitoring
accelerometer = stroke rate
real time video streaming
datalogging = display sensor data

#22 Wed, 02/10/2010 - 8:25pm

I imagine the biggest cost to that paddle is the data logger. Pressure sensors can be had for dirt cheap these days. We use ones that cost about $35 quite regularly in my lab from Omega.

While putting a pressure sensor in the paddle is one way to go, it seems, well, expensive. Why not integrate something on the boat to measure how efficiently the force is translated and use video to critique stroke technique? A setup like this wouldn't cost nearly as much, would actually generate more data (multiple sensors could be used with one data logger) and could offer just as much benefit.

#23 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 3:40am

I think the paddle is using strain gauges not pressure sensors. The actual electronic parts are probably quite cheap. As with most things you're paying for the idea not the parts.

#24 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 6:40am

Except for a few instances, most pressure sensors these days are just a strain gauge glued to a diaphragm of some type (or very similar, sometimes the diaphragm is the strain gauge). They get expensive when you want higher accuracy or something exotic.

#25 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 8:04am

Great idea anowara's idea.It seems that the cost goes up when you go wireless, too. The strain gauge itself is not expensive.
Strain gauges are mounted on the shaft and then normalized. It doesn't have to be wireless, even for the paddle.

What sampling rate would be needed for the paddle deflection ? Probably not that high ?

Heart rate, GPS and accelerometer data are recorded at the same time.

Simultaneous measurements of six paddlers in the OC6 could be rather expensive.

I have no good idea what the needed software would cost. There is enough open source software that can do all this - it may be a challenge to integrate the components.

My guess, overall max budget: $ 3000.
It just depends on the set up.

#26 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 8:24am

Regarding increasing stroke rate as the Sperlich article discussed, I can only consider this as a very unique situation that worked for a particular paddler. It may not work for all paddlers, for since 1988, when Barton won his gold medals using a slow stroke rate (compared to the competition), the focus has been to extend or prolong the duration of the most propulsive phase of the stroke, which differs among paddlers. Only the human brain can quantify all the imponderables that contribute to successful performance.

#27 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 10:38am

It seems to me that the fundamental goal of Sperlich-style measurement is to help paddlers optimize the translation of paddle force into forward movement.

So, let's fantasize a minute: assume you have installed some sort of pressure/strain gauge on your paddle, a GPS on your boat, and fancy sunglasses that connect to your strain gauge/GPS via bluetooth and instantaneously display the force you are using in little numbers on the left side of your sunglasses and your current hull speed on the right side.

Now you go out into a canal and start paddling. Hey, it works great! You paddle a stroke, see the force, see your speed, change your stroke slightly, see the new force, see the new speed, and after some amount of time you figure out how to position the paddle throughout the stroke in order to optimize the translation of the force you apply into forward movement.

Flush with victory, you paddle out into the ocean, and suddenly your instrumentation is no longer any help at all. There is no longer any obvious connection between force and forward movement! For example, you catch a wave, stop paddling, and your speed increases at the same time that your force drops to zero!

This, I think, is the basic difference between Olympic, Sperlich-style paddling and typical OC paddling: they paddle in "static" conditions and we paddle in "dynamic" conditions. In static conditions, you can use relatively simple measurements to connect your behavior to the outcome. In dynamic conditions, it's much harder: the "optimal" stroke actually changes from stroke to stroke, because the optimal stroke at any time is contingent upon the current state of the wind, waves, currents, the current direction of your boat, etc.

Not to say that the fancy sunglasses are useless, but I'd trade them in a minute for an hour on the ocean with Nappy Napoleon paddling beside me and telling me what I'm doing wrong.

#28 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 3:14pm

All very true belleview. But not every body is lucky enough to paddle in "dynamic" conditions nor are there any guarantee that dynamic conditions will appear on race day.

I have done exactly what you proposed in the first part of your post, but with a heart-rate Monitor and GPS only and achieved an understanding of paddle technique that has improved my race times, and I know others have done similar. The same result also could have been obtained by enlisting Nappy, but he lives along way away from most of us.

True, Karel Jr admits learning most of what he knows from following behind others and observing, but if his Dad said "Karel strap this on I'm going to video you", you can bet the competitor in him would have done so. As mentioned else where, Jr is also an excellent flat water paddler, no Dynamics there to assist. Though you can bet Jr will see bumps that we don't.... even on flat water.

Rambo

#29 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 3:40pm

The action under water interests me a lot. I think you could learn fast with that feedback. Technique counts on every stroke; what you learn on flat water will count in the open ocean too: maximum power, timing of peak power, how long you hold peak power in a stroke, stroke rate.

There are some paddlers that put in a lot of time, but their performance does not improve. They just don't learn by listening, some learn better visually.

It may be that such feedback system are getting affordable. They are in principle not different from any stopwatch.

In one rowing experiment they coupled accelerometers with a sound system - the pitch went up with better acceleration. Coaches and paddlers were interviewed and liked it.

#30 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 7:13pm

Feed back is feed back... you can get it many ways. Doing nothing with it when you get it..... that's the fall down.

Rambo

#31 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 7:03pm

I was enlightened when I first got a GPS, sometime I would be given her and I was going slow, and sometime I would be flying and I felt like crap. I wish there was a gadget that could produce emotional content like

#32 Thu, 02/11/2010 - 8:22pm