Posted this on my paddling blog:
Nappy is off to the Big Island this weekend for a SUP race. It's the lull before the States storm coming up next Saturday.
Once again when the subject of the States race came up, we talked again about the lack of a level playing field because of the differences in koa canoes. In our case, we are using a borrowed older boat from Hui Lanikila as our own koa is in need for major renovation. In contrast, the bigger clubs like OCC, Lanikai, Healani and others have more than one and generally will race in a renovated, state of the art koa. So when our crews paddle out to the line, already we are at a disadvantage which we have to overcome. Fair or not that's just the way it is.
What to do? Well, we can be patient, fundraise, and wait for the day when we have a beautiful almost new boat such as Leeward Kai's. The other option and one favored by Nappy is to make the States race a real test of who has the best crew with everyone paddling in fiberglass boats of the same design just as we do at World Sprints. The beauty and tradition of the koa canoe remains during regatta season but at some point, we should turn the focus on the best crews without the handicap on some of paddling slower, older canoes. The old guard approach is that this idea is pretty much heresy and not even to be considered. However just as the 'Eono Hoe race this year, the time really has come to look at ways to improve our sport and not get mired in the past. Controversial? You bet! Opposition? Out there!! Comments??
Peter
Anuenue Canoe Club
pekelocald.blogspot.com
Submitted by pekelo on Fri, 07/30/2010 - 1:24pm
I think there is more than just the koa issue. Qualifications for each association are different as well as regulations for equipment. when it comes to states some oahu clubs can't qualify as many races as others on the outer islands. also the big clubs in states shouldn't get points for races where they don't finish in the top five. There are many things that could be changed with the regatta's, but every time you voice an opinion all that happens is you get voted against and everything remains at status quo. At some point people are going to get fed up and who knows what will happen next maybe a new association will arise. If anyone has ever been to hamilton island you know what I mean by no BS as far as officiating goes.
#1 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 2:04pm
The Associations should be there to promote paddling, and help it grow not to hinder it with rules. We need to remember that the Associations are there for us to Organize and Legitimize our sport, but not to completely Dictate it. There is a ongoing problem with how things are going, maybe we need to have a Paddlers Union. A group of rotating paddlers that have the voice of well (the paddlers). Checks and Balances.
To start a new organization is a lot of work, Im sure Manny and the PAA crew can vouch for that. Why not try to help make the ones we have better than they are. When we are unwilling to change ourselves we are unable to grow.
T
#2 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 2:44pm
Does anyone really think the best crews aren't winning States because of differences in boat quality? Not me. Aukina brings up some very valid points regarding qualification of crews, though.
#3 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 3:19pm
so according to some people the boat paddled at states makes no difference in the outcome of the race. koa canoes are all different because they came from different logs or builders. so any advantage or disadvantage because of this is acceptable. koa canoes cost about 30 to 40 thousand dollars and this is also acceptable. (correct me if i'm wrong on the amount)
BUT..... unlimited boats designed and built in Hawai'i make a difference so they are unacceptable. accoring to some an unlimited boat that costs 15,000 dollars is too expensive for the small clubs.
curious...
there is a time, place, and reason to race all types of canoes. it seems many people are starting to realize this.
#4 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 3:46pm
My number one qualm is that clubs collect points for each crew that qualifies for states. Thus a club could be ahead of all the other great clubs and the racing hasn't even started. That same club could do bad if not okay throughout the day and still have a great overall finish. All the while a club with less crews that's been winning medals throughout the day like they're going out of style won't be recognized properly.
I feel points for the hawaii state race should be earned DURING the state race. The current means of accumulating points just for qualifying does not demonstrate which club had the faster crews but rather which club had the most crews.
#5 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 3:56pm
As sort of a side to this whole thing. My club has a koa canoe that they won't pass due to it being 1/4" short for waterline. If I'm not mistaken don't they take measurements of the Koa canoes at the start of the season to see if they adhere to their guidelines? If so, it would be a complete contradiction that measuring of the canoes are to facilitate a level playing field. If the goal of measuring is to eliminate any advantages why would their be any opposition to adopt or initiate the use of a single design to be used for regatta.right?
#6 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 4:01pm
braddah,
I am not sure of the rules of collecting points but from what you described, you have to run the table and beat some top level BCS teams to earn a BCS bowl birth, (the power are with those with money and are normally the traditional powerhouses, the usual suspects)
#7 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 4:04pm
Koa raing is all about tradition and keeping that mana alive!
Every koa canoe was built in some special way for its own purpose maybe the top clubs have the money to modify their koa canoe to be like boats we have in fiberglass but that doesn't make their specific koa boats faster than any other club. For example take away top paddlers in these boats and go with all novice B paddlers in them all and it will depend on the crew not the boat. 2004 States Novice B men Lokahi won that race a hui waa club with I think the biggest ass on the tail of canoe compared to any other boat, but they moved it with a fast time at that. When the top clubs are winning its not the boat its the crew and there are top paddlers in all those crews. Hui Lanakila is nowhere near being a club with money so there is no modifying of koa boats in fact having it repaired last year probably made it a little heavier but the club still places in almost all its events and is winning regattas as a club.
Its a beauty to see different design canoes race against eachother that's what makes it that more interesting. If you want top competitiveness wait for distance or enter IVF all the top guys will be around with the same boat.
#8 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 4:14pm
"Its a beauty to see different design canoes race against eachother that’s what makes it that more interesting. "
Exactly.
#9 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 4:22pm
i use to fix up cars and drag race back in the 80's, there was a coupla phrases amongst the racers. 1) run what you brung. 2) speed costs money. how fast do you wanna go? going into the season, you know the canoes your club has, it's not like they surprise you at the first race and bust out a canoe that may not be up to your standards. yes, the bigger clubs have better equipment and resources. no surprise there either. it's the same in other sports. until another association arises or the current rules are modified, that's the way it is! you can still paddle and race and have fun, just don't whine that your crew lost because the other crew/crews had a better canoe. if that's the case, join a bigger club or just buy the best oc-1 out there and go solo. then you can only blame yourself. if you continue to get blown away, see the " why i paddled slow" on this site and take your pick.
#10 Fri, 07/30/2010 - 9:12pm
read Ropati's editorial Pacific Paddler vol15.2 Put things in perspective 4 me. best thing ive read in a while
#11 Sat, 07/31/2010 - 3:42am
Jc9- I head from Luana who is a 1 of 5 master canoe builder and she said 130k for a new koa canoe. How many open spec boats could you buy with that? Please don't answer.
Can this forum please stop saying that it's all about the paddler and the boat has nothing to do with performance. That is too elementary of thinking if paddlers really want to move the boat forward.
One thing that I believe is holding the sport back is hcra. We need a race association that works with builders and suppliers to progress the sport. The producers are the one that will benefit from from the growth of the sport, but right now they are not working together at all. Or very little and that is only little with Paa.
Paa or whover needs to step up and take on hcra head on and put an end to their glass ceiling they are unknowingly putting on paddling. Maybe it's velzy and those guys that should take them head on. We should have a leeward and windward conference ( something ong these lines) races be on sat and Sunday at any place besides keihi. All race standard fiberglass canoes ( we all know no two koas are the same and less than half canoe clubs have koas). Just that fact alone makes state champs race unfair. My club doesn't even touch a koa till they step in a boat for their States race.
Tradition is what is holding the sport back. Evolution is what makes everthing better ie. People, animals, businesses, NFL, NBA, MLB, surfing, sup (have you guys seen how much their crafts have changed in the last two years). Who's not progressing......paddling.
#12 Sat, 07/31/2010 - 5:25pm
It's ego and ignorance that is holding the sport back. The culture is stifled as well. You have people with no proven design or building credentials making the calls of what is or is not allowed. The truth can only offend the guilty.
On or about the same time the hull specs came to be, an Open class was also put in the hcra rules. Why? Could it be that it was known back then that the hull specs were indeed not the end-all of Hawaiian canoes? Of course they did...why else would an Open class exist? But because our ancestors who knew about other designs passed over, the specs today are wrongfully referred to as "traditional". They are not.
Kona still had some of those ancestors back then. I was fortunate to have one of them as one of my mentors. He always shook his head with disgust when the terrible subject of hcra hull specs came up. And Kona was, and still is, home to canoes with those design features and, such features make for a far more efficient moving canoe. Features one no longer sees in most canoes in use today...koa or glass.
#13 Sat, 07/31/2010 - 8:15pm
just a simple ??? cause im pretty new at this. Why do we have to race in koa canoes?? doesnt this benefit those who race in and have koa canoes. i hear people say its the paddlers not the boat. so if you come from a club who hasnt raced or even smelt what a koa is like, how is it a fair analysis to say its the paddler not the boat. well any way koa or glass, im pretty sure my son will enjoy his race.
#14 Sun, 08/01/2010 - 5:53pm
Blah Blah Blah. Blah. All this talk. Just be sure when you're on the starting line to take a moment and digest the enormity of what you are about to participate in. The history, the beauty of the canoe and sport, and the fact that you're about to get your ass kicked but its OK cause you're racing against the best in the world. What other sport can Joe Blow get on the same starting line as the best in the world?
But really, take a moment to understand what it took for the koa canoe you were sitting in to exist on that day. No matter what boat it is, its a mind blower....
#15 Sun, 08/01/2010 - 9:32pm
Here we go again, listening to the same song that's played over and over again for decades, unfortunately, fiberglass canoes lack spirit and therefore are unacceptable as a substitute for a koa canoe.
#16 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 2:39am
maybe some should really listen instead of being so proud and not even consider what people want. my boys 15 13 and daughter 12 never paddled a koa canoe, hense our lack of knowledge on koa canoes. as a family we care not if its koa or glass. were here to have fun and enjoy the festivities. when fun gets taken out because people cant agree on something, then truly the whole sport suffers. will we put our keiki in this position later on when there adults arguing amongst themselves? if we are shame on us.
#17 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 7:09am
@poops, you're really growing up (sniff sniff, tear tear), it seems like just yesterday you were putting the smack down on unsuspecting posters, now we witness these eloquent and enlightened comments, next thing your gonna be changing your buttaid avatar.
@kauai74 as a parent, your feedback is critical, I hope someone is listening to you and can support you through this. Organizing a build for a koa canoe will be fulfilling for you, maybe talk to one kumu?
@states; it is what it is.
Good luck next weekend, I hope the lanes are fair.
#18 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 7:39am
Peter...Pekelo my friend. Thanks for bringing the debate up again.....
I am one for the World Sprint format. Equal boats, elimination process where crews can paddle maybe two or three races instead of the one and done, have 24 mirages, bradleys, or whatever using 8 lanes with one group of 8 on the line, the next group staging and the last group loading up, cut down on some of the events...etc., etc. Everyone has heard this story before.
Koa versus non koa, tradition versus evolution, culture versus ?? etc., etc., etc.....tough, tough call.
Or....
Do what Manny did.....Do your own thing. Everyone against the current set up...step up and do your own thing. Where is it written in blood that only HCRA can have a state race using their outdated format? Hey Pekelo, maybe Anuenue can start the ball rolling....get out of OHCRA, get some of the big boys to join you (kailua, lanikai, outrigger, hui nalu), create your own association, start your own races, and stage your own States. Then, associations or clubs from across the state can either join your association or stick with HCRA...our choice.
Is this good for the sport?? NO, we need to get along. But it is an option? Hell yes.
Could PAA be this new association? with the Eono race being their spotlight event? with year round racing like tahiti does with seamless transition from one man races (Aito type events) mixed in with 6 man change and iron man races, with a Hawaiki Nui/Eono type show case event (Maui to Molokai, Molokai to Oahu)? All kine possibilities.
think about it.....
Jaws out.
#19 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 9:27am
Fibreglass one design (all same kine canoe) is good for the kids. When they grow up and can afford their own, then allow freedom of choice..........maybe they will want something that is more than a commodity.
#20 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 10:03am
putting aside our pride and egos, maybe together we can help our sport grow. im a proud parent of kids who love to paddle and are excited about paddlin wether its koa or glass. its exciting to see happy faces at the end of the finish line regardless of type of canoe or what place you came in. that is what truly is the mana and spirit of this beautiful sport. not the stoopid politics. someday all us donkeys (adults) will die. what is the legacy we will leave behind? one of ego, pride and stubborness or one of understanding and humility.
#21 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 10:17am
IMO Koa canoes hold generations of "mana", from those who built it, to those who paddled before you, in it. Some of us don't realize the abundant history these boats hold. I feel honored to paddle in ANY Koa canoe. We are sooo lucky to have this opportunity, and should never take it for granted.
If you get into a Koa with the thought that this boat isn't that good or "sucks" compared to other Koa's. That boat is gonna teach you something. The saying that you should treat these canoes as if they were your Kapuna holds us to higher level of responsibility, your energy is received by the canoe and the canoe is responsive to that.
So IMO, the paddlers can be a huge factor in the performance of the Koa canoe. Especially in that respect.
Besides, I have seen crews race in canoes that were thought of as not competitive in design, smoke crews in boats that were "supposedly" the fastest Koa canoes.
On the other side, I think innovation to boat and equipment design is awesome. It allows for more opportunity and growth of the sport, and I'm sure it is something on a cultural level that is inclusive as well. We have the opportunity to have open class/unlimited races now, this is just another facet of our great sport. More and more this will develop into having more events and racing classes to be involved in.
States, is States. Is it all even across the board of course not. As long as it is a sport where the ocean is involved, it will never be. The human factor or culture, to some may be hindering the sport, but I disagree. Without culture this sport wouldn't exist. Could States or HCRA rules be tweaked a little to be more fair? Maybe.
Just remember, we are the lucky few in this sport that get this opportunity to paddle Koa canoes and race against the best paddlers the sport offers. This a very unique and rare setting to be involved in.
#22 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 11:56am
healani has NEW boats not state of the art boats...
but i do not think going all fiberglass is the way to go.... the top paddlers will be the top paddlers regardless of how their canoe is designed and lets not forget its all about moving YOUR boat the best you can maybe some of the challenge is to adapt but that is racing.
#23 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 12:47pm
association:
-a formal orginization of people or groups of people
-the act of joining or consorting with others.
#24 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 4:03pm
Everyone is different and is a different paddler
1. Out to win it
2. Recreational
3. Family
4. Jus competitive
5. For a workout
There is no way one organization can please all these types of paddlers. There is no one to take on HCRA they are well established and have a system for all these categories. Manny on the other hand wants to take paddling to its limits longer faster harder runs which will require more developed paddler to enter and try and start bringing in more sponsorships to our sport. World sprints is for the best of the best. We have these different organizations for those different paddlers. Our sport is not being held back we are jus slower than Tahiti.
The Boats. If you really believe its the boat not the crew then grab ur fastest boat and come out and do the sophmoremens race because that is the race everyone is scared to do so they go juniors to win it. Top paddlers win cuz they r good damn bad ass paddlers they can go into a striker and beat u in a lightning
Team paa traditional canoe beat mafia in open class by a good gap. Why? Because they had bad ass paddlers in there. Maybe some should actually go and talk to manny about this personally its bigger than wat u think way bigger.
Another thing about using the same boat. You will have only one boat builder one paddle maker and no growth to the sport it will end there. The many boat builders and paddler shapers is what makes this sport grow different new designs is what makes it exciting lot of tahitians build their own boats thats how they role, lot of us can't event fix a ding in the boat.
#25 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 4:15pm
good thoughts ia. i have to say that although the PA'A crew did spank us by about 5 minutes it should have been a much bigger gap. the boat made a HUGE difference. from looking at the results and the crews that were behind us in spec boats i'd estimate that the Kapa'a cut about 15 to 20 minutes off our time. yes the PA'A crew had bad ass guys. if they had had a similar boat to the Mafia they'd have been right there next to team Kamanu and Livestrong at the finish. perhaps in a regatta the differences aren't that big. when you are talking about a 32 mile course that takes 4 hours the difference is staggering. ask anyone that raced that day and they'll tell you the Mafia crew had no business finishing where it did. the Kapa'a carried us and that's a fact.
#26 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 4:48pm
1 PA'A guy = 2 OCP Mafia guys, but Kapa'a > spec fiberglass canoe. 5th place Outrigger CC should have demolished us...
...of course I'll challenge anyone who was in Manny's or Simeon's crew that day to a blogathon. I'm a much better paddler on the internet than in real life.
#27 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 5:42pm
yes ia i see your point.
although, weather your 1. Out to win it
2. Recreational
3. Family
4. Jus competitive
5. For a workout, everyone is together in one boat blending together, pushing 100% together and working for the same goal together. the pure deffinition of an "Orginization" is •a group of people who work TOGETHER.
#28 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 7:52pm
this argument reminds me of the story of prince Kuhio's Canoe
uncle Jay Dowsett said back in the olden days the prince used to love betting on things,and especially on koa canoe races. He had a special koa canoe built for his crew, and they dominated every race until the competers started to get angry and complain that the prince had the fastest and strongest guys. when the prince got word of this he told all the people that it was the boat that made the differenceand not the crew. he was so faithfull in his boat, that he switched boats with the 2nd place crew, and placed a full bet against his crew and for the second place crew which was in his boat. the second place crew endind up winning and proving prince kuhio right.
prince kuhio's speedy koa is still in one piece today, and is being stored right across the other side of keehi lagoon in uncles boat wharehouse.
another interesting fact is that all traditional koa canoes are desinged off of the princes boat.
does this story prove that history repeats itself? should we use this story from the past as an example of what to do now? like i said before, we need to come to terms as an orginization, as a group of people working together.
P.S. i am pleased and honered to even have been able to touch that canoe and litterally feel the power and history run through my fingers, and i will allways remember that till the day i die. when i grow old, i will pass that story on to enyone with an open ear. so dont be afraid hawaii that the tradition will die along with koa boats, because the stories and memories will live on forever.
take pride in your cultre, craftsmanship and carisma to win, but dont drag the new generation of masterminds down the path of destruction. remember, the only thing that comes after pride is fall.
#29 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 8:50pm
Jc9 yes if they had an open spec they would have been there 1st or 2nd but that is the whole point to keep tradition yet open the specs so we are not paddling the same boat and to test your skills because all the Paa crew is gona do Molokai Hoe it is still the race to win we need to bring are title back and it will make it that much easier now we know more of our limits out there that's the goal to beat tahiti in our own boats. We all need to learn how to paddle any boat not to jus go with a lighter boat cuz its easier we need to adapt.
I have raced the Eono and if I had done it open spec it wouldn't feel as gratifying whoever did it traditional got a whole lot more experience. This is why there is more than one organization or association whatever you want to call it but its to please all paddlers and to try bring more paddlers and more competitiveness not to go head to head
As a Hawaiian paddler we lack years and years of true paddling because we surf. Already no one does v1 here which is true form of padlling for thousands of years which we lack. Now we got a handful doing the v1 but its the same people the top guys.
J billz that's why people change clubs or jus go somewhere else every club has its MO because the clubs goals are different maybe they all want to win but lanikai will take seats away and stack crews to win where hui nalu is gona go buy as much lanes open for states so everyone can race. We could be in the same club me and you but your goal is to make first crew mines is to place get top 3 in all races you have to work with what you got learn your crew yoir club people in the club ultimate goal is fast hull speed low stroke count with no matter who is in the boat now to hit peak speeds your goals have to be high some people won't push as hard as you but they want to win jus gota learn who you paddle with
#30 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 9:30pm
I nominate J billz as the new head of OHCRA.
#31 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 9:50pm
i for one care only about the keiki. they will continue the paddling tradition wether its koa or glass. everyone seems to care more about the adults and whos going to win freshmen, sophmores blah blah blah. i understand the tradition of paddling in a koa but some of the smaller clubs dont have an oppurtunity to paddle one. now here comes states and our boys are at a bit of a disadvantage of never even sitting or paddling a koa. all we can do is tell them to do their best and hope we got a decent lane. can they win??? sure its possible. is it fair?? we will never know for sure.
#32 Mon, 08/02/2010 - 11:45pm
J Billz amazing story.
I second that vote Makana
Right on Kauai74, it always should be about the Keiki.
Tradition lives in the people and the stories they tell, the way they teach their Keiki. If a Hawaiian had to move away from Hawaii, for one reason or another, is it safe to say they would still be Hawaiian. Is it ok to say that they could carry on their tradition of paddling somewhere else; Cali, East Coast, Canada, Europe. It is only a tradition if the people pass it on, and believe in it.
I remember the First time I raced in a Koa, it was so special, and the Keiki I was coaching looked at me like what you've never been in a Koa. Uncle Hank had been talking all about the Mana, and how important it is. But come Molokai time did we forget about the Mana even though we were racing in a Glass boat, No. We had a great Channel we took 11th, and besides my first crossing that one was one of my favorite crossings. I still get chills from Kingi's story, the night before that race, and I still remember the "Ha".
tpop
#33 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 7:19am
Imagine if Prince Kuhio's hands had been tied due to hcra hull specs...
#34 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 7:31am
ha
#35 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 7:36am
i understand the the mana everyone is talking about. I can remember paddling in a koa as a 14 and under and it being an amazing experience back then.
I felt the same kind of mana or energy in the Kapa'a. Not in a sense of looking into the past and what had been. But more about being a small little step or footnote in the evolving of a culture that is much bigger than myself or any one person. This was partly because we were helping to push the sport. But a large part of that feeling was the fact that everyone in the Kapa'a crew built the canoe we raced. Our journey across the Kaiwi started in Keizo's mind a few months before the race and all of us worked to realize that vision. To be lucky enough to paddle across the channel in something that me and my crew put ourselves, our energy, and our life force into. To me that's what paddling is all about, regardless of canoe weight, construction, or material. To say that crossing in the Kapa'a is less meaningful because of her weight or construction is a bit hard to swallow. Especially since we built her.
#36 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 8:08am
@jc9_0. Both canoes you guys designed and built are so badass!!!!! Great job documenting the experience of building and crossing the channel. Mahalo for sharing that with us! How long is the waiting list for one of those...lol?
#37 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 10:01am
Also love the fighter pilot names @ the cockpits.
#38 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 10:02am
Jc9. You are touching points I am trying to get across I totally agree with you. Like said b4 every paddler is different with different goals and as long as we come together and race its all G. Next point was about the boat and yes you built it you took the time to know the boat and that's what makes it soo special I completly agree we all have different goals. So by having the same type of boats for everyone to race there is no life or energy jus paddlers and how boring is that we need challenges.
Koa racing only strives in Hawaii and it is our culture. Now all these koa canoes have stories and feeings and passion like jc9 and their boat that's the beauty of it. That's why tahitians build their own boat that's part of being a complete well rounded paddler not jus someone who is in shape and can go you have to know your equipment as well and how it works in the water. Koa racing does not take away from anything jus trying to keep it alive.
Kauai74 as far as koa boat racing goes to me it doesn't matter if you been in one or not we only use our koa for regatta you only get in for that one race then out. We nevere never never practice it. I had to stir last ohcra champs and that required 3 turns I don't stir I stroke but all my practicing was fiberglass I am still as unsure how it will run or turn have no clue. Its just a koa boat I am honored to race in.
I have been paddling since I was 18, I have coached boys and girls who have not ever been in a koa because they never made states. Jus be glad they are paddling states and able to be in a koa boat take it in don't put it against them if thery're that young there are plenty oppurtunity this is jus the start. I am a father myself so I get it but at that age jus let um have fun they will b jus as good as others
#39 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 11:08am
jc9 0,
When the hull specs became rule back in the 70's, there were koa canoes here on the Big Island, built by Hawaiians. Having personally lived the experience you describe above, you can imagine how those builders felt when their koa canoes were waterlined, did not meet hcra criteria, and told their canoe was "illegal/not Hawaiian."
Imagine how much more feeling you would have, had you gone to the forest, selected the tree, cut it down, hauled it down, roughed it, cured it, and then built and raced it. You hit the nail right on the head my friend. Who's listening? Who's learning?
#40 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 6:20pm
for me to see my boy work so hard and not just qualify but win their age group championship here on kauai. is very fullfilling as a parent. sure they will enjoy and soak up the moment at states. they want to compete and win. yet i feel as a parent we will be at a handicap, just as pekelo first posted. can they win??? sure anything is possible. am i looking for sympathy?? NO by all means. its frustrating to think we will be paying all this money to come over to have only one shot at it. there is no season for us to practice and work out the kinks, just one and done. do i think we could win on glass??? hell we will never know, but at least i know we would be competitive. shit i hope our boys prove that im just ranting. any way i say koa for the adults and glass for the keiki. tradition can only be passed down fi we show the kids the way. im just happy that my kids love this beautiful sport. in truth that is truly where the spirit and mana lies for me.
#41 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 7:26pm
Bill,
"you can imagine how those builders felt when their koa canoes were waterlined, did not meet hcra criteria, and told their canoe was "illegal/not Hawaiian.""
that's how my coach felt when he got his Koa waterlined when it didn't meet specs. He built his canoe after his son died as sort of a dedication. It was true work or love, he locked himself in his garage and bought some dogs to ward off any visitors (friend or foe).
Then, waterlined it and they said "no go." Long story short he had to HACK/molesting it up to get it to spec to only have it not pass waterline again. The only time that canoe has been in the water since not passing waterline the 2nd time was to spread my coaches ashes. The man died not seeing it raced. He never showed anger against the powers that be but as a small club do we get it "fixed?" at an obvious HUGE cost (supposedly it needs to be widened, I'm assuming cut in half length wise and add some strips to get waterline and the width adjusted). Off topic I know, but thanks for listening.
Back on topic. I've heard it before. The hawaiians in the past wanted to be fast too. The Koa designs would of eventually evolved into faster boats. I understand what the regulations are try to preserve but it is also stifling the growth of our sport but being so narrow minded.
#42 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 8:26pm
Here is a question....... once a canoe gets waterlined and it is considered "legal, " for states, does it get waterlined later again for states? Every 2 years or so? If not, then how do we know if many clubs with a " legal " canoe is still legal?
I remember three Keehi state races ago when Kaneohe did really well with their kids program while going on to winning the AA division as well. Their kids performance was just a equal of those from Hawaiian C.C. If not mistaken, Kaneohe did not use koa until states which they borrowed a koa canoe from a Big Island club, Na Wa'a Hanakahi.
Good luck to all!
#43 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 8:53pm
swel50,
The spirit of both your coach and his son, thrive within the koa canoe. He intended to see it race or he wouldn't have attempted to modify it to get it to pass. If your club so desires, send it to me and I will modify it to pass at no cost to your club except for transportation charges.
You may email me at konakanoeshawaii@yahoo.com should you take me up on this offer so we may further discuss how and what needs to be done.
#44 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 9:17pm
Bill,
I am truly speechless. thank you. I will speak to my club and accept your most generous offer.
TRULY, thank you,
Allen (swel50)
#45 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 9:37pm
Wow...U da best, Bill!
#46 Tue, 08/03/2010 - 11:01pm
I was surprised to learn two things this week.
Interestingly, OHCRA is not blocking open class canoes at all. Written in the rules is an open class division which has a loose definition of the canoe and no weight limit. This is in addition to the Koa and Non-Koa Traditional divisions.
Any OHCRA sanctioned race is allowed to have open class canoes, provided that the Race Director at the sponsoring canoe club makes the division.
As far as I know, the Dad Center and the Kailua Bay Challenge will both have an open division (I could be wrong about the KBC). Though it doesn't look like any other race directors this year are going to allow the division.
Also interesting, is the fact that the board members of OHCRA are incredibly receptive to under 18s racing the channel. Unfortunately, written in the OHCRA bylaws it states that they are not allowed to change a race rule mid-season. So, in order to change the under 18 rule they would need to first vote to change the bylaws, and then vote to change the rule. That is the hold up.
I don't think that there is any doubt that we need change. I think that the only way it's going to happen is for those who want it, to be as loud as possible. OHCRA, for those of us on O'ahu, is our association. It's the representatives or race directors of our clubs who are making the decisions. I think that it's important to find out who your club representative is and speak to them if you have concerns. If there are problems with the way things are going right now, the only people we have to blame are ourselves for not pushing to progress these issues.
#47 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 7:05am
I just re-read the opening post on this thread and realized that I was a bit off subject. Personally, I don't think we should ever outclass the Koa canoes in a regatta. The Koa Canoe is so central to our sport and they need to continue to be raced and perpetuated. If we stop racing them they will all end up getting hung up in restaurants for people to look at as a reminder of what Hawai'i was. That would be a tragedy.
And my previous post is not meant to put forth any agenda. I just mean that we need to make use of our current system. And that we need to continue this type of dialogue. We need change, and it's up to all of us to define that change and make it happen... whatever it is.
#48 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 7:18am
Luke,
you write " I don't think there is any doubt that we need change ... "
On regatta day, I see 2500 happy paddlers spanning three generations, maybe even four, on the beach.
Seems pretty nice.
Can you give me a little more detail about what you want to say, if you will:
Who is the 'we' that needs change ?
What is this 'change' that cannot be doubted ?
Eckhart
#49 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 9:09am
To me, the biggest indicator, is that we cannot compete internationally. Team Primo will likely be closer to Shell Va'a this year than anyone ever has been, but, as a whole, we are dropping further behind Tahiti. I think the fact that we need to change is irrefutable; what needs to change is debatable. In my opinion, there needs to be a massive shift in the way that we view youth, training, and the canoe for that to ever change.
I started paddling in 1996 for Kaiola Canoe Club on Kaua'i and paddled with the youth program there until 2003 when I went to college. Out of literally hundreds of kids that came through that awesome youth program in that time period, there are only three of us (that I know of) that still paddle: myself, Keizo, and Kelly. That sucks. We need way more emphasis on the youth. In my opinion, banning them from racing Moloka'i is a huge hinderance to their progression. Many people who grew up paddling never do a distance season or do the channel. Often they end up leaving Hawai'i for college and, by the time they come back, their passion for paddling is gone and they've never experienced the greatest race that we have to offer.
Also, in my opinion, the fact that canoe design cannot evolve naturally, and that we are all racing in the same fiberglass replicas is a huge problem. It has taken importance away from the canoe. For the same reason that we should always strive to perpetuate the Koa canoes, we should push the envelope of canoe design. The canoe is the focal point of the sport. It is what makes outrigger canoeing outrigger canoeing. You take away that importance by regulating it.
#50 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 1:17pm
Thank you luke for explaining my points I expressed earlier in more detail.
There is nothing holding us back, associations are doing the best they can we need to step it up ourselves.
Glad we are on the same page. Spoke with other paddlers that feel the same way.
Makena
#51 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 10:31am
Luke,
I can join your point of view the the Koa's need to stay around. I would like to change it a little bit. Use the Koa's for the regular season and for champs race use glass. We should be going all out in states and you just can't do that by racing a $130k boat.
As far as getting the youth involved, I believe you are correct in that getting them hooked is the way to finally beat the Tahitians. I also belive that "distance" season is what hooks a paddler. Where we slightly differ is I don't believe rudderless will ever take off in Hawaii just because the open ocean is where most people get hooked on paddling. The rudderless just can't provide that type of exciting open ocean performance. I know that is the way the Tahitians have gotten so good, but that doesn't mean that is the way the Hawaiians will get to that point. It's a lot easier to get people hooked on something that is fun and competitive. The energy needs to be focused on open ocean paddling though: one-mans, 2-mans, 3-mans, surf ski's and 6 mans.
#52 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 3:22pm
sorry this is way off subject with the original part of this thread, but i felt compelled to jump back in.
as a person that has been coaching youth paddling for the past several years there are two things that we are always short of in a high school paddling program.
1) kids who are confident and proficient in handling themselves in the ocean
2) kids who know how to handle or steer a canoe
paddling in any ocean going craft generally helps take care of issue number one.
issue number two is another story though. only one craft craft forces 100% of the people that paddle it to interact with the ocean and understand how to control a boat at all times. is paddling a rudderless a harder workout? for sure. is it for everyone? nope. but then again, is paddling for everyone?
i'll be honest, i'm 100% biased towards training on a rudderless. it's all i do, so much so i sold my pueo. in surfing races i'll jump on an OC-1 if there is one available to borrow. this past year of paddling was the best i've ever had. jumping from a rudderless to any other canoe is pretty much seamless and in fact very easy. as far as it being ultra fun and getting hooked... when i'm able to link together 2 or 4 bumps on a hawai'i kai run or catch the cross swell when it wraps around by lighthouses it is SUPER fun. there are days that the wind just wants to push me sideways and those are brutal, but i just deal with it. the end result of this one year experiment of training on a rudderless? I went from being 8 minutes behind my fast friends in an 8 mile run, to being 8 minutes behind the same guys in a 20 mile run. mind you, this is training on a rudderless nearly 100% and jumping on a ruddered boat for races only. i'm sure a huge part of my improvement was the training schedule. but i also attribute the improvement to learning the new skill of handling and maneuvering a boat using only my paddle.
as far as speed i am by no means a gifted paddler but here are the facts. at the beginning of 2010 it would take me about an hour to do a Hawai'i Kai run on an OC-1 and about an hour and a half on a rudderless. after this past year my fastest run was 48 minutes on an OC-1 and 58 on a rudderless.
one last remark in regards to the fun quotient or getting hooked. below are comments i have heard at every single HVA race i have organized to date (even in Kailua bay with cranking trades):
"that's not as hard as my dad told me it was!"
"that was super fun."
"wow, i thought only the fast guys could paddle these things!"
"when is the next race?"
as soon as i hear that last line i know we have accomplished something.
i'm the first to admit i feel a sense of pride and think that Hawai'i paddlers should be able to compete with anyone on any stage. hell, even my wife and guys like Jim here on ocpaddler give me shit all the time about wanting to emulate the training methods of tahitians. but think about this. when Hawaiian paddlers used to beat the Tahitians, what happened? the Tahitians came to Hawai'i and learned from Hawaiian paddlers. then they went home and regrouped. now it's time for Hawai'i to take a few tips from the Tahitians and raise the level once again. This should all be part of an exchange between cultures that makes this sport thrive.
#53 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 5:47pm
"I don't believe rudderless will ever take off in Hawaii just because the open ocean is where most people get hooked on paddling. The rudderless just can't provide that type of exciting open ocean performance."
Not to pull this thread even further off-topic, but I think something should be said in behalf of rudderless canoes. Personally, I couldn't disagree more with the statement regarding rudderless canoes being less exciting in open ocean conditions. I can without a doubt say that some of the most fun and exciting times i've had paddling were going downwind in a rudderless canoe. Im sure some of the other guys out there who've put time in on the v-1 will agree with me. As far as the v-1 not being "fun", I think that all depends on the paddler. Obviously without a rudder, some wind angles will be difficult, but I can assure you that the v-1 can be just as capable and exciting as an oc1 upwind and downwind. In the ocean, by the way.
Also, as far as getting the youth hooked on paddling... If any of you were at the most recent HVA race, you would've noticed that there were probably more kids under 18 than there were adults. I think one of the main attractions of the rudderless for our youth is that it's something new, and provides an overwhelming feeling of accomplishment when basic skills are mastered. Looking at some of Hawaii's current top youth paddlers now, such as Kalei, Kekoa, Puni, Jb, all of them practice v-1 paddling and would probably agree with me that the rudderless is just as good of a tool as any to get more youth involved in paddling.
#54 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 5:54pm
I knew you were gonna beat me to that jc9_0.
#55 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 5:59pm
The V-1 isn't really in the same category as promoting youth paddling and open class canoes. Those are areas where I think the sport is being hindered. I do not think that the sport is being hindered by the OC-1 and I do not think that the reason the Tahitians are so good is because they paddle V-1. They are good because they are incredibly passionate about what they do, and it permeates ever aspect of their lives. That passion is what we need to work on fostering.
At the risk of this sounding like a sales pitch.....
The V-1 is difficult and frustrating, but can also be incredibly rewarding. I do think that the V-1 is more beneficial for training someone to paddle in an OC-6 or a V-6. It also gives you an incomparable sense of the ocean. But, the main reason that I am doing my best to help promote V-1 paddling in Hawai'i is because I believe that the future of international competition is with the V-1. And I think that the next generation of paddlers will be at a disadvantage if they don't have experience with it.
#56 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 6:04pm
Both Makana and Jc9_0 beat me to that, and both were a lot more eloquent than I was in describing why we paddle V-1.
It honestly is incredibly fun to paddle a V-1. And, in the end, that really is the reason why I do it.
#57 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 6:12pm
makana, i figured someone would beat me to it so i wouldn't have to post that novel that took me over an hour to write.
#58 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 6:21pm
luke my kids also paddle for the na opio program for kaiola. ive seen tremendous growth in my kids love and passion for the sport. the lull after states and waiting for the next summer na opio program is where we lose alot of kids. distance racing starts after the na opio programs end, but at this point its only for adults. ived ask to see if my oldest son could paddle long distance,but was told he needs to be 18.atleast for him high school paddling starts up in a couple of months. would be nice to have something for my younger kids during this lull. i guess daddy gotta go buy couple oc1s so we can continue paddling lol.
#59 Fri, 08/06/2010 - 7:02pm
I must say that in the days before V-1's; Pekelo, Nappy, and Anuenue held a "No Ruddah Bruddah" fund raising race for rudderless OC-1's; which was a lot of fun going around a buoy (outside Kaiser's) on a windy day. I wish today that there would be more similar rudderless races that would include OC-1s. I would support another rudderless fundraiser to help Anuenue complete repairs to their koa canoe. And yes, I do understand that a lot of time and money has been invested in creating and marketing V-1 canoes so that rudderless races today remain the exclusive domain of V-1s. However, there is more to paddling than just tracking straight ahead, for a rudderless OC-1 will turn tighter circles and outmaneuver a V-1.
#60 Sat, 08/07/2010 - 2:11am
so how much for a rudderless??? who in hawaii besides tiger and kamanu puts them out. would be intrested to get one for my kids to have them enjoy the experience.
#61 Sat, 08/07/2010 - 7:10am
The Kamanu rudderless is actually much easier to paddle in Kailua Bay than a traditional Tahitian model.
I paddled it briefly - for the second time - after a 'Hankathon' and I did not have any problem to stay at speed and to steer in side on conditions, paddling on both sides.
As all of you said before, to get overall better performance you have to change the methods for the youth.
I have been out there on many days during winter season paddling along with the youth program over the last three to four years.
Often, and that is more often than not, there were more coaches than paddlers. Performance was not controlled, no times were taken, improvements not registered etc etc. Technique is every bodies best guess.
Coaches are not trained either.
Maybe a suggestion - develop a program to certify coaches, then move slowly to use these certified coaches to train the youth.
The koa/glass design question is not that important to me - almost every craft is fun to paddle. I would construct boats lighter to be able to carry them better and use weights to live up to the specs.
#62 Sat, 08/07/2010 - 8:48am