OK.
So this year I move into master's division, and a few questions have been rattling around in my head as I reflect on the Masters and Senior Master's divisions
At the Molokai Hoe or the Molokai Solo, what percentage of the Masters, Senior Masters, or Golden Masters are taking HGH or other performance enhancing drugs? Do we care? How many paddlers are not being true to the sport and saying it is a medical issue so I have to?
I know we have talked about this before and debated back and forth about testing, time, energy, extra cost, so I really don't want to talk about that.
The bigger question is "Do you know a paddler that for sure has taken HGH and performance enhancing drugs?"
I have walked around many times during the preparation for Molokai and seen unnatural muscle mass on some master/senior paddlers lately.
So if you are a paddler and starting to ramp up training for the season, visiting a doctor to get the extra edge, and reading this post- I and I am sure many other paddlers have a few choice words-starting with #$#% you.
Submitted by Kona J on Thu, 03/11/2010 - 5:57am
If you're dumb enough to take HGH to move up in a canoe race, go ahead.
#1 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 6:52am
I agree with Jim. If you lack the common sense to see the negatives in taking HGH, you will get what you deserve down the road. I would not worry to much about it, it's human nature to use what ever edge you can. HGH is a bit extreme, but how anybody could afford to test every paddler is a very expensive process. I just can't imagine a group of guys all agreeing to take drugs to simply win a masters or sr masters division at Molokai. What's in it for them?
I would not waste my energy giving those type of paddlers a second thought. Focus on your own training and enjoy the sport.
#2 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 8:16am
Should test the first 5 boats over the line in all major outrigger races.
#3 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 9:35am
if we were professional athletes, yes, but we are all out to have fun and be on the water and in fantastic health. HGH does not promote fantastic health.
#4 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 9:46am
As a Senior Master paddler, I remain drug free. . . . . . .a fact attested to by my continuous finish toward the back of the pack.
#5 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 10:10am
I'm not in masters but I sure am impressed with how fast some of those guys move them canoes esp the OC-6! I have to say tho, to those guys who have been in the sport a long time, its such a huge advantage with their knowledge of the ocean. As for HGH, if they take it so be it, I'm just happy if I beat my personal best. the only thing one can control is he/her own performance. As for performance enhancers, I have tried Optygen recommended by other endurance athletes but it hasn't been a WOW factor at all. Now, Jack3d, hell, that thing will tear your skin off!
#6 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 11:24am
You started this thread Kona J, do you know any master or senior master paddler taking performance enhancing drugs, ie banned substances?
How much is first prize for the Molokai Masters divided by six?
How much is first prize for the Molokai Master solo?
#7 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 7:50pm
Who cares! I am an old guy who can , on a given day , come in ahead of some of the "muscle" guys. My current drug of choice before the race is the Vitawater "Power" formula (although the new Cherry/berry flavor is pretty good) and post race protein booster Steinlager along with some Poki (must be the sesame oil). Its all about fun. Whoever trains the hardest will win over the drug enhanced paddlers every time in this sport.
#8 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 8:02pm
Did I hear "Molokai Master Blaster?" Now that's my kind of racing format.
#9 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 8:38pm
I don't know. Isn't it pretty hard to get HGH ? I read somewhere that to be effective, HGH has to be injected into the bloodstream by a physician ? And that the physician administering the HGH would have to have conducted specific tests to show that you have lower than normal GH ? Hardly believe that somehwere in Hawaii, there is a secret HGH clinic ? Then again, maybe I am too naive ?
#10 Thu, 03/11/2010 - 8:53pm
Yeah! That's why I'm still waiting for Costco to carry the stuff. Then I buy.
#11 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 6:49am
I am old and currently without unnatural muscle mass-would like to pick some of that up and mix it with the Steinlager, where to get?
#12 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 7:29am
Welcome to the internet:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=hgh+pharmacy&ie=UTF-...
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=hgh+sale&aq=f&...
At least half of the results are probably scams or total crap, but I'm pretty certain if you look a little more closely it's not going to be hard to find or to find a doctor willing to write you a prescription for it.
You want to be stronger or faster without working hard? Good luck with that but HGH ain't going to do a thing for you if you're not willing to work hard.
#13 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 9:19am
I hate to break it to you guys but drug testing costs quite a bit of money. Money that race organizers do not have. Drug testing the top 5 crews would exceed what 1st place for Molokai Hoe gets. If that money was available I would say put it into prize money to make the event bigger and attract more crews. If a crew is putting the money down to juice up for an outrigger race than they are pretty desperate to jump a few places higher. Remember our sport still requires skill such as surfing, technique etc.
#14 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 10:33am
I don't think anyone is taking HGH, I thought it just makes you larger in size, not more muscular... and doesn't HGH deform you a little? It's supposed to make like your forehead grow and other parts of your body that isn't supposed to grow anymore grow. So you get bigger but you get somewhat deformed? I see some big guys, but no one looks deformed.
#15 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 1:00pm
kai chong is a cheater!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#16 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 1:11pm
Maybe they are out training while we are surfing ocpaddler.com.
#17 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 1:28pm
I find it hard to ask a question that can't be answered. I'm 67, and take maybe an asprin from time to time, and my HiGH is being on the water 12--15 hrs a week doing my best, having fun whether it's a surfski, outrigger or SUP. "I'm happy when I can beat my personal best", stated in one post is always the goal. If there are individauls using enhancements, and they feel good about what they're doing, so be it--feel good about oneself, and move on and establish goals to be achieved.
#18 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 1:46pm
I guess that explains my premature baldness and ever growing forehead. :)
I've never witnessed anything firsthand that would lead me to believe that anyone is on performance enhancing drugs, but I know how it feels to wonder if the guy in front of you is on something. I personally would even pay a bit more in entry fees for testing. I also think it would help validate the sport. As the sport grows, testing is bound to arise.
On the flip side, who determines what is alright and what isn't? I am no stranger to experimenting with ergogenic aids (caffiene, rhodiola rosea, sodium phosphate, etc). But just because you can buy it in a grocery store is it then no different than supplements such as carbohydrate and water? Is there a standard that other sports follow, or is it up to the individual association to determine what is okay and what isn't?
#19 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 1:58pm
Occasionally I see someone with a 'quite-likely' rating; you also hear some things from senior paddlers about what happened in the past = I am 'pretty-sure' it is being done.
For some reason this topic does not interest me very much.
In sports you never have a level playing field, there are too many variables.
Competition is fun, but in the end it is meaningless, except for 'be as good as you like to be'.
#20 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 2:25pm
For luke:
http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/World_Anti-Doping_Program/WADP-Prohibi...
#21 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 2:28pm
HGH can be used for performance.
Ok so maybe drug testing is used for the top 3 places and maybe some randoms, but that only helps for that competition. What is the point? People can be juicing all year long and then come off with enough time for that event and test clean. Thats why you have to have frequent random drug testing, which costs even more money. I have been tested at events and I am also in a pool that gets drug tested randomly where ever I am. People who are in the pool have to submit filings on where they will be for a 3 month quarter. My point is that there will be lots of scenarios which will make it difficult. Also, where are they going to draw the line for supplements? Will they follow the World Anti Doping Association list or will they say that something like cytomax is illegal because Kai Bartlett swears by it and wins? Also a lot of people in the paddling community smoke pakalolo, that will show up as well and if we use the right drug tester and procedures that will get you dq'ed for it in and off season. Just my two cents, I am not against testing but I just dont see it happening. My guess is you tested paddlers a couple may be positive but i doubt any of them are the ones placing.
#22 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 2:41pm
Like everything there is the question and the underlying reason for asking it-the subconscious
In the USA prescription drugs/medications are out of control (in my opinion). Things are getting more sophisticated, advanced and a little crazy. The number of adults taking medication for stress, depression, anxiety, and to help sleep is pretty amazing-are some of them also paddling?-you bet Is it dangerous? you bet.
The number of people dying in car wrecks, ODs, etc. is crazy. I know a 17 year old high school student who was killed in the morning by school due to a mother who was dropping off her kids and just "zonked" out of her mind and drove right through the stop sign
I was reflecting on Michael Phelps vs. Spitz and the recent records and comparison. They asked Phelps if he was able to sleep every night given the excitement of the Olympics and records. He said sleeping no problem I take ambien to sleep and sleep 8 hours every night. When I heard that I said Spitz was better.
I know individuals over 50 who have taken low dose steroids and HGH to recover from surgery, add back muscle mass, etc.
I think it is a slippery slope, because as you get older medically a doctor might say we need to keep muscle mass around you back to prevent major problem-etc. So someone keeps taking it and then starts paddling again.
So maybe HGH was the wrong word.
#23 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 2:54pm
DUE TO THE MEMBERS WHO POSTED TO THIS THREAD, THIS THREAD IS OFFICIALLY "OCPM" CERTIFIED.
If you don't know what "OCPM" means, then you just don't know.....
#24 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 3:00pm
Agree w/ Dolan. Eckhart...competition ultimately meaningless?
#25 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 3:25pm
Double edge sword... Money comes in with the legitimacy of testing and then people start taking stuff to improve so they can make money off the Legitimate sport (like cycling yeah). Funny how greed can influence decisions in even a simple sport such as OC.
OCPM
#26 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 3:28pm
I'm gonna use whatever Aaron Napolean uses to go fast. He never trains and blows the field away. I think it is that Smirnoff (sp?) stuff. Or maybe he drinks salt water - we know it is in his veins. The guy is amazing!
#27 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 6:03pm
I have personally witnessed Aaron dosing himself up before a race and its something I would never use as its gotta be bad for you, I think its called SPAM!
#28 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 6:51pm
Hgh would be useless crossing the channel. Purely an endurance event. Look for O2 enriching doping, EPO, transfusions, etc. Google it. Hgh makes you look pretty but won't help 3 hrs into the race.
#29 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 7:57pm
Then last poster is smack on the money if you pardon the pun. Endurance and skill, is 99% of OC paddling in the ocean in excess of 30 mins. Big heart wins ... not big head.
Rambo
#30 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 9:41pm
SPAM! That's it! Was it direct out of the can or fried with eggs and rice? Good stuff! If you paddle like Aaron, it doesn't stick to you- you burn it off like diesel fuel. I remember getting Vienna Sausage from Pono Market on McCully after surfing at Ala Moana and right out of the can it hit the spot. Ono! I think I'll try that or the SPAM before the next race.
#31 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 10:00pm
Jim - not meaningless in the sense of enjoying performance.
Meaningless with regards to being the best, as in 'better' than others.
Lets say your club invites the best paddlers of the island for the OC 6 season, and, no surprise, wins all races.
That may then have been an impressive performance, but what's the point ? If you put the best paddlers in one crew and the worst in the other - ???
Doping with drugs is just a variation of trying to get an advantage; many of these attempts are accepted, but most of them are not fair.
#32 Fri, 03/12/2010 - 11:51pm
Here's one of the Wikipedia articles on HGH and it's effects on athletic performance (so take it with a grain of salt or a slice of spam, but probably a decent enough summary):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HGH_treatment_for_athletic_enhancement
So, while it seems like it may make you look ripped it doesn't actually do as much to build muscle/strength as some heavy squats and milk would. This may explain its popularity with bodybuilders where muscle appearance is more important than muscle strength however.
Does testing really add to the legitimacy of the sport? If you look at the top paddlers and crews in Hawai'i and Tahiti they all work hard to be at the top. I've always thought amateur athletes (as in someone who isn't making their living solely be playing a sport) are far more legitimate than a professional athlete where money becomes a major influence.
Take the U.S. bobsled team that just won gold. Each of those guys has invested a lot of their own time and money into making it to where they are, and while they got support from Geoff Bodine to make the sleds, they still have to work hard year round to perform at that level. It's the same thing in paddling right now, and while it doesn't bring in the money, everyone who is out there racing is doing because they love paddling, the ocean and maybe spam. That's far more legitimate than big prizes and salaries.
fake edit: Why isn't Hormel sponsoring a race, Hawai'i has to be one of their biggest markets?
#33 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 7:22am
Also, Abbot Labs, they sell plenty Ensure here, by the case loads (good recovery drink). But for me, I'll stick to my Geritol on the rocks.
#34 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 8:11am
I tend to use Ocpaddler as a method of sorting my thoughts, so I apologize if this seems like I'm rambling.
One of the reasons that I paddle is because I am a naturally competitive person. I thrive on the internal battle that goes on inside me and on the head to head battles in a race. I train extremely hard to prepare myself for the challenge of racing. I am also very careful of what I put into my body; I try to eat as "pure" (no meat, alcohol etc) as possible and live as healthy as possible.
However, I think that most endurance athletes probably cross the healthy threshold when training and racing. I know that my level of training cannot be entirely healthy (for me in particular) and is not a "sustainable" life style.
When I race, I want to know that I am prepared for it, so that when it's over I know that I had my best race possible. That includes putting stuff into my body that I wouldn't normally put in. When I was younger I've taken up to 800 Mgs of caffeine before a race. Likewise, I've done a lot of races where I felt like I pushed myself beyond a healthy point.
My point being.....
I'm not at the top pier of the sport and I am very health conscious, yet I still race and supplement in ways that could be bad for my body. If all of the top athletes were on EPO and you knew that in order to compete you had to take it, and that the governing bodies of our sport don't care what you do... would you take it? That scenario really scares me, because I don't know the answer to that question. Even though every healthy impulse of my body screams not to take anything that I don't understand; if it's a way to compete with the top guys, every really serious athlete would have to consider it. And I'm saying this in a day where there is almost no prize money in paddling and no incentive other than personal competition.
I want to compete in an arena knowing that I have had an equal opportunity to succeed.
For that reason, I don't understand why there would be any resistance to drug testing and a list of banned substances. For now, only the top 3-5 guys would need to get tested and only before a race such as the Solo, but it seems like the benefit of the testing far outweigh the costs.
#35 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 10:06am
Luke
True words. Those who enhance themselves through means other than hard work are going to have to live with the knowledge of there insecurities. The only thing we can do as a community to stop it, is teach are young paddlers and athletes that its wrong. That winning through needles is not winning at all. In the words of Nappy,"I paddle cause its fun" If we aren't having fun why are we here.
I would like to see the top guys in our sport tested, it would bring a legitimacy to our world title.
#36 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 10:38am
Luke , it sure seems like you're in that top tier when I look at the race results, at least in Hawaii anyways.
#37 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 11:34am
" Even though every healthy impulse of my body screams not to take anything that I don’t understand; if it’s a way to compete with the top guys, every really serious athlete would have to consider it. "
Every serious athlete ? Why that qualifier - everybody should consider it, it is enhancing your performance. But I think you would come to the conclusion to dismiss it, for many reasons - what kind of a comnpetiton would that be - who has got the best doctor, best sources ?
There is no such thing as a true equal opportunity. An olympic swimmer is ~ 15 times more effective than a beginner, great, but - so what ?
The winner always had the best assets on that day, true.
But again, maybe he had family support over the last 15 years that the runner up did not have, or whatever. That is not equal opportunity.
One may have customized equipment, the other doesn't - not equal opportunity, etc.
Someone takes druges, not equal opportunity, but it never is.
The whole idea of competition can get screwed up easily.
Do silicone implants and viagra fit into this discussion ? In a way they do.
The basic idea, wanting to be the best, better than others, is immature.
#38 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 11:37am
Viagra would be like giving yourself the ability to paddle. Not necessarily gonna make you paddle better...
And implants are like a shiney nice new canoe!
#39 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 4:56pm
Just some Viagra effects:
Widely used among athletes, entirely legal.
Be careful with that drug; potentially very harmful, especially for people with heart conditions.
#40 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 5:34pm
Be careful Eckhart, it looks like you're sliding back into the internet addiction!
#41 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 6:22pm
tell me about it - what else am I supposed to do while the epoxy is hardening ?
#42 Sat, 03/13/2010 - 8:44pm
There was a Team Viagra a couple years back from Hawaii island in the Hoe. I wish I could find the picture I had which featured their big sponsor logo on the side of their canoe. Classic. Those grumpy ol bastards had a good run if I recall correctly!
#43 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 7:17am
The Hana Relays in Oct 2009 also had a Team Viagra. Truth be told, they ran hard the whole race!
#44 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 8:10am
Viagra? Too expensive. More better just drink coconut milk fresh from the tree. It works. Plus, get bonus of plenty kids too.
#45 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 9:16am
One thing I can say about our paddling ohana....some of you guys have a GREAT SENSE HUMOR!! Get some funny stuff on this board. Keep it up....starting my Monday morning off on a great note.
BTW...coconut juice does work. Its been studied and proven. Better than any sports supplement drinks on the market. Go google it. Now, just gotta go find a tree, then try it.
#46 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 9:24am
HGH may not help in endurance races (or develop strength for that matter), but I'd imagine it would be a big boost during the training preparations, I'd imagine you'd recover a bit faster so there will be less time in between hard workouts.
Does Viagra help you "recover" faster ?
#47 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 9:52am
From what I've read it doesn't sound like it aids recovery significantly. From the Wikipedia article I linked to before the biggest benefit is injury prevention by strengthening of connective tissue. Steroids would be the best way to increase recovery rate.
My favorite (unintentional) pun from this thread:
eckhart_diestel said when discussing viagra:
#48 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 10:31am
Vegemite on the Goolies... they'll never catch you out.
Rambo
#49 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 1:24pm
screw the viagra just eat Balut. Thats why Manny Pacquiao is the champ and Filipinos has lots of kids...........................
#50 Mon, 03/15/2010 - 7:36pm
anowara: I presume he's in trouble if the "hardening" last longer than a day?
Rambo: Vegemite is an American product unavailable in the U.S. Only can find the inferior British Marmite in the U.S.
96744stroker: Balut!!! Reminds me of my Olongapo days of washing down the delicacy wilth gallons of San Miguel. Back then, bagaoong and nuk marm was the preferred performance diet for me. Sorry, but monkey brains is where I drew the line.
#51 Tue, 03/16/2010 - 10:12am
Arrghhh bloody POM's ,,,, don't go with the Marmite, that's been known to cause shrinkage . ... not a good look if you wear Speedo's or budgie smugglers.
R
#52 Tue, 03/16/2010 - 12:16pm
Just saw this about HGH effects on athletic performance. Here's a link to the actual article at the publishing journal.
The big conclusion (taken from the second link):
Maybe HGH will help you catch a wave by increasing your sprint capacity and lowering your body weight (and thus reducing drag), but it's not clear how that would play out over a long paddle. It also sounds like the risks associated with it's use aren't very pleasant.
#53 Tue, 05/04/2010 - 8:28am
I heard it's pretty good for hitting baseballs, too.
#54 Tue, 05/04/2010 - 9:15am
Really? I alwys thought a baseball bat was they way to go for hitting baseballs.
#55 Tue, 05/04/2010 - 10:22am