What they paddle...

MauiTim,

To clarify, your list shows two things. A canoe type and manufactures.

So you should break out the Kai Waa with Pegasus, Scorpius, and Scorpious XM.

Also I think if Danny C. was on a Scorpius XM, he probably would have won also.

#2 Mon, 04/19/2010 - 8:14am

I had a mudbrook before, it's a good light paddle. But I snapped it too easy, do they make ones with carbon fiber reinforcements? Maybe that would be better....

#4 Mon, 04/19/2010 - 1:28pm

If you (or even Danny) could elaborate on his training regimen, I'd really like to know

#6 Tue, 04/20/2010 - 5:45am

not to disagree w/ anyone but as close as the race was, i'm sure the boat makes a difference. a bunch of my friends jumped on pueos and they became considerably faster. i think the only paddler who can win on any of the so-called top boats is karel. not to diss the other top guys but if you put karel in a pueo or scorpius xm he'd kill it, if you put say danny or jimmy in a zephyr i don't think they'd stand a chance against karel in the channel on a day like the 2010 crossing. again, not cutting down the other guys cuz they're frickin unreal paddlers too but i think the boat plays a big role too. it would be great if they had a race where they all had to use the same brand of boat, sorta like when nascar had the IROC race where all the drivers drove identical cars. does anyone know if like karel jumped on a scorpius or pueo or if kai jumped on a pueo and what they might've thought about the competition's boat?

#8 Wed, 04/21/2010 - 9:02pm

howzit eckhart, you say the boat with the winningest record in the Molo crossing are the OC boats. do you mean the total of all boats entered or just 1st place. junior has has won like 7 of the last 12 or so, so it would make sense if you're talking just about 1st place. if thats the case , why aren't there more OC boats being paddled in the Molo race? there was like only a few. you'd think that with juniors record there'd be more. people i've talked to and who are regarded as excellent paddlers all say the pueo has made them faster and that it is a better overall boat than say a scorpius xl/xm. keep in mind that they have paddled both boats. BUT almost all agree that the bigger the bumps...... the scorpius is better. the pueo is hands-down THE hottest boat right now with the kai waa boats right behind. also, the wainui is being produced in china and looked very good at kaimana last week where it was being demoed. another new boat is the ale nui haha from the big island, also a very nice looking boat. my friend paddles a pueo and swears by his boat but he did a hi-kai run on the ale nui haha and said it was pretty good and for the price was well worth buying. run to kaimana was on an average day and it seemed like the boat surfed really well and he was still fast so i guess the boat must be pretty good. i think karel needs to come out with another boat, it doesn't seem as if the osprey has really caught on with the local paddlers.maybe these two boats from the outter islands will give kamanu and kai waa some "rubs" .

#10 Wed, 04/21/2010 - 11:17pm

In my opinion, the fastest boat is the one paddled by the guy who trains the hardest and smartest and combines that with the best water knowledge as well as an extreme level of comfort on whatever boat it is they are paddling.

I know guys who say a Pueo is hands down the best canoe. I know guys who say the Scorpius is hands down the best canoe. Me personally, I dont like the way a Pueo moves compared to my XM and would never want to own one. I have friends who say the exact opposite. Bottom line is that not every canoe is for everybody. I still recommend guys try both. Just because there are mass numbers of a particular kind of product doesnt make it the best hands down. There are a lot of great boats right now which is great compared to 2 years ago when there was only 1. Now you have Pueo's, XM's, and Beanie form the Big Island has built a really nice new canoe that looks like a direct competitor to both. Selection is great!

#12 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 8:41am

Interesting. eckhart does make a good argument. OC boats have won the most and hold the records.

Some questions pop into my head:
Will we ever know which boat is fastest?
Is there really a faster boat?
Isn't it the paddler that makes the difference? Or is it the boat? Or is it both?
Do conditions matter?
Are there fads in the OC-1 industry? Is a popular boat popular because its fast or because its what everyone wants?

I don't think we'll ever know what boat is the fastest and I'm starting to think there isn't necessarily is a faster boat. Too much emphasis on the boat and not training. But it does make for some good reading at work when I'm suppose to be doing a lot of other stuff.

#14 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 10:26am

I'm sure I'll get jumped all over for this comment but it doesn't seem like anyone has brought this up.

Has anybody been feeling the boats lately. The reason I love my pueo so much is that it is super strong and stiff (foam core). Just like in a 6 man canoe a foam core boat is stiffer and in my opinion way faster (The main reason why most top crews race foam core 6 mans). Putting (devinisil??) foam in the place of core-matt i have noticed a tremendous difference in speed on the water. The boat doesn't seem to bog down while on the water because the stiffness doesn't allow the boat to move which in turn the ocean doesn't absorb the energy from the boat. When Kamanu used to just use foam for the hull I thought that was a step in the right direction, but now that they use it for the deck and hull, its made the boat in my opinion that much better. So lets hear what everyone else has to say! Foam core or no foam core.

#16 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 11:59am

I think the starting point was if Karel Jr or Kai would be faster on a different canoe - maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. They would likely not switch and still win their races. In my opinion they would not get faster by switching unto another brand.

The two most successful paddlers paddle their own design - they hold the record and hold the wins.

The Pueo is not my fastest boat outright - I have a modified Hurricane which is faster up to 10 knot wind conditions.

In a longer race - windward to Waikiki for example - both boats have about the same overall performance:
the Hurricane is better in the flat and protected sections, the Pueo is better in medium and downwind conditions.

Thus, my ranking:

fastest - customized
downwind - Outrigger Connection
allround - Pueo
flat - Hurricane

(have not paddled Scorpius or others much)

Hiro - the 'problem' is the distance to the front iaku - move it forward, bend it ??

#18 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 2:15pm

Hiro - ama rather further back for my taste.

#20 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 8:16pm

what time?! im always ready to paddle with different people

#22 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 9:08pm

"All this technical stuff is meaningless especially when preached by people who don't really know what makes a canoe work."

What technical stuff are you talking about and who in particular doesn't know what they're talking about?

And why would Kelly Slater be against a discussion on canoe design and performance?

And who exactly is whining?

Sorry, I'm just super confused and am having trouble understanding your post.

Actually, I do understand your post, I just don't understand where you're coming from.

In my opinion, this type of open dialogue is necessary for our sport to grow and progress. Every thread about equipment always goes back to the idea that it is a worthless topic for the non-elite paddlers to discuss. I don't understand where that sort of sentiment comes from. Of course the top athletes train their asses off, but they are also meticulous about what they are using (from paddles to canoes to apparel). Wouldn't everyone want to educate themselves as much as possible and put the same level of thought into what they are paddling with/ on/ in?

#24 Thu, 04/22/2010 - 9:51pm

paddlefast - who are you ? You take your advice from a bumper sticker ? Then just follow what it says :).

Do you really have no interest in boat design ? That would be like a surfer not being interested in the design of his board - that simply does not exist.

#26 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 9:20pm

"Just go paddle and have fun! Use/buy the canoe that works for you..... all the whiners and people trying to justify one design over another."

lilo, dont wanna split hairs here, but, more than a hint, eh?

#28 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 7:33am

Like all pro surfers, Kelly Slater is super meticulous with his equipment. If you've looked back at the last couple of years Kelly has been playing with board and fin designs with Al Merrick. For a contest, out of 20 boards, Kelly will ride them all and probably pick 2. Now paddlers that are doing well are not only having training plans (which incorporates long hours of paddling, sprints, running, and weight training, etc.) but like Kelly and Al Merrick they are working with canoe builders on what they want in their canoe to make it that much more efficient, thus going back to customization which was discussed earlier. For example, lighter carbon, eliminate stringer in certain areas of hull, foam core on deck and hull, adjustment of weight, shorter 'iako's, modified seats and seating relationship to the sweet spot on the canoe.

Once you got the canoe and training dialed in, then you figure out fuel and recovery supplements that work for that individual then on to paddling lengths and sizes that gives the paddler the most efficient stroke cadence and power phase application.

Like paddlers, pro surfers now are becoming recognize more as athletes where they bring along their strength and fitness coach along on tour, dial in equipment with accordance to the spot, and also are taking energy supplements prior to heats. Especially now World Tour wins bring in $75,000 to $100,000 for first place where last year first place made $25,000.00.

Straying away from main topic but the point is dialing in equipment is very important.

Carlton

#30 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 10:41am

Step one:

If flat / mild......

Get rid of ( switch to smaller ) those huge rudders ... Not talking V-1 either.

Instant, undenyable results.

aloha,
pog

#32 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 2:10pm

the top paddlers, they train hard and know their particular equipment

@ paddlefast : That is exactly what those discussions are about... knowing what works and what doesn't, trying to understand what makes a difference with our equipment. top paddlers don't just "paddle and shut up"

#34 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 3:01pm

numerouno, i'm not sure what you're trying to say but i'll try. here goes: " more than a hint", do you mean i should just go out and paddle and have fun? i do that every single time i paddle/train, if it wasn't fun, why the hell would i or anyone else continue to do it? for the most part, we love to paddle because of the workout it provides for our bodies, the connection we feel with the ocean and especially doing a downhill surf run with friends or other paddlers. the group i paddle with encompasses many skill levels. age, male or female: everyone goes as hard as they can on our runs. they all want to be the best that they can be which is why they train and buy the best equipment that they can afford and suits them best. i know this for a fact, while theres alot of comraderie and good-natured ribbing; NO ONE WANTS TO HIT THE BEACH LAST! there are just as many paddlers that don't race and just wanna paddle because they like to be on the water and cruise. the bottom line is we do it because we love it! again, nowhere do i see anyone whining. could it be possible that you're whining that the rest of us are just having a discussion on different boats and how they affect the performance of the paddler? the boat that i paddle now is the best boat. why? because it's the only one i have at this time. it's a great boat but probably not best suited for me because of my size which is why i ordered a pueo. i've done runs on my friends pueos and the improvement in times is considerably faster. this is why these forums can be so great, it gives paddlers the oppurtunity to discuss canoe design, training methods, proper technique and theories. i will never paddle as fast as jimmy or luke, nor have luke's knowledge of canoe design but jimmy made sense when he talked about the rigidity/stiffness of his boat and the effects it has on performance. learn something new everyday! FUN! that's the main reason i paddle, hope you understand bro'. take care and aloha!

#36 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 5:15pm

koakanoe - the canoe market is limited to what we have, not many custom items are readily available.

Many people shape the seat, but that is about it. To make a custom rudder is already an undertaking, it takes a while to learn how to do that and then you can only guess how it may work.
You can change your ama, make it wider, change the rocker, move it etc - not too difficult, but also not very much yield - you do it once, it may work, it may not work, are you going to do it again ? Is it worth it ?
You can change the iakus, same problems.

As many others I do these things as a hobby. But I am not changing an ama 10 times just to get a little faster.

The most compelling change would be an extended foot well with adjustable foot pedals, so that the paddler can move not only his seat, but his entire position.

The nice thing about that would be that you can 'customize' your paddling without additional expense.

#38 Fri, 04/23/2010 - 8:36pm

Sorry Eckhart, but I can't tell how far back in relation to the rear iako was Jimmy sitting compared to Danny? However, like the old saying: "to the victor remains the spoils," I'd sure wish that I could eavesdrop on the post race critique with the three top finishers and the designers of the their canoes. Bet there was a wealth of info shared that will no doubt be incorporated into future Kamanu Composite canoes? Now that's called propriotary information worth gold.

ps: Foodland now selling 4 pack pints of Bitburger for $5.99 ($2 off reg. price).

#40 Sat, 04/24/2010 - 2:39am

koacanoe - You can see where they sit on the video clip. I know the measurements of the relative seat positions of the top paddlers as I am interested in this. A friend paddled with Jimmy's seat today here in Kailua - if I understood that correctly - I took a look at it.
But the discussion is not meant to be about the race, rather how important an adjustable trim might be.
And Jimmy would probably talk about what he thinks of his equipment only after a win or not at all to maybe have an edge the next time :)
(I don't know Jimmy personally.)

By the way, what about Danny's leg position in the video clip ?
If you would agree that his legs could be a little more stretched, then it would make sense for him as well - not being a taller paddler - to move the footwells. In this case not for trim but to allow free rotation of the upper body. I read somewhere that the thighs should be close to horizontal to ease the rotation. Makes sense to me.

Don Quijote has the price all the time - but it is a 4-pack - that is too much for me. As you know beer should not be allowed to see the sun rise and refrigerating beer at home is something that just cannot be done.

I wondered about the V1 seat; it does have enough space to move forward/backward on it when needed ?

#42 Sat, 04/24/2010 - 3:47am

This is interesting about leg position. I see many photos where paddlers have their knees up high in the
air, legs very bent. it It feels a little stronger to have some bend in the leg as opposed to straight legs. I had wondered about how the foot wells are configured in different boats and how that might change the appearance of
the paddlers posture.

#44 Sat, 04/24/2010 - 9:12am

koacanoe: you are right, moving forward will not be ideal in all conditions.

If you want to paddle with a strong leg drive - your legs need the position/range of motion like on a bike, that is up to almost stretched.

Then you engage the balls of the foot as you describe, too. It brings your ankle joint into play and you can develop more instant force like in a jump. For that you need a larger foot plate.
A good solution may be the entire footplate being the pedal, pivoting around a bar at about 2/3 rds of its height.

Knees up in the air is a 'favorite' paddling position - it raises the center of gravity, does not allow you to push,
locks in your hips, limits rotation of your lower spine , crowds your guts, pushes up your diaphragm... you name it.

On a Hurricane moving the foot well has been very efficient; it may also work on other models.

We may talk about a 1 - 2 % gain only, may be more - but why not ?

#46 Sat, 04/24/2010 - 3:29pm

i have just read the comments on this blog.... Paddlefast i agree with your earlier post ! I think of it as buying a motor boat..... there are lots of different hull designs Force, Hawaiian Cat, Sea doo doo .... and it does make a difference if you slap a 50 on a 30ft force compared to twin volvo diesel engines.... The motor has to match the boat but you also dont go out and buy a brand new force maybe you start with a sea doo. I belive the same with our sport and surfboards......Luke i agree with you but you being so into what your riding, your paddle, all that well........ most of the non elite paddlers cant worry so much about that. I dont know about you but when your starting any sport you dont get the opportuninty to " worry about" you equipment so much. My first couple surfboards i couldnt complain that they were not the best, or top quality thats what i had so i had to work with what i had... my first paddle same thing hand me down double bend( thats in style now) that weighed so much but thats what i had... had i been worried so much about my equipment i would have givin up...... ive always felt that its not the shapers fault you dont rip....good post you guys....

#48 Sun, 04/25/2010 - 5:43pm