Just wondering ....I note that a lot of paddlers...oc1 and oc6 are using the larger volume paddles...ie Broadreach and Kialoa has their Teva and of course there are the Tahitian paddles. 17"-18" long at the blade and 10- 10 1/2" wide. What difference does that kind of extra volume mean? It makes sense that with a smaller volume paddle one can go through the water faster...easier to get higher stroke rates...but it seems that the higher volume paddles are more efficient when the paddlers are fit enough to swing them. For us mortals...swinging a larger volume blade..with correct technique of course...it would seem that we could pull the canoe forward more efficiently at a lower stroke rate then using a smaller volume paddle...even at a higher stroke rate. I like the more volume paddles that are coming out...since they are light, designed with a dihedral and a concave. The smaller blades pull through the water faster but is the canoe getting pulled through the water faster ?
Submitted by poidog on Fri, 01/21/2011 - 7:40pm
Begs the question: why do Tahitians paddle big blades ? Does their stroke differ, more like mulus experience ?
CAPTCHA:
keizo, wouldn't one word be enough ?
#71 Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:29am
I'd bet there's just as much variety in Tahitian paddles. I've seen Tahitian blades as wide as 11" and less than 9".
#72 Fri, 02/25/2011 - 5:57pm
Yeah you have.
#73 Fri, 02/25/2011 - 6:50pm
For anyone interested in the more technical aspects of this, I actually found a pretty decent paper on kayak paddle drag coefficients. Here's a link to it: http://www.springerlink.com/content/9483347111351495/
This study mainly looked at blade shape and drag coefficient, finding more typical kayak paddle shapes have an advantage over a simple flat plate at high pitch angles (e.g. at the catch) in terms of drag coefficient reduction, maintaining a higher drag coefficient throughout the stroke.
A little more relevant to this discussion is the force balance on a paddle blade. Surprise, surprise, the authors main conclusion is that paddle size, both length and power face surface area, can be optimally matched to the strength of the paddler and the type of paddling being done.
As with anything, there are tradeoffs. Stronger paddlers (in both power and power endurance, the application of force repeatedly over time) like the Tahitians can get by with using bigger surface area blades for distance events because they are stronger and better conditioned. A novice will need a smaller blade because they are comparatively weaker and have less conditioning.
I think someone earlier in the thread mentioned this, but blade surface area is a lot like gearing on bikes. Stronger riders will be able to use bigger gear ratios more effectively. Same with paddles.
#74 Fri, 02/25/2011 - 8:36pm
Mahalo Anawara...was going to say the same thing...paddle matched to paddler...I kind of worried about hearing that less is more and 8 1/2 :" paddles very popular on a six man....everyone wants to use it ?. I just watched the video of Taaroa winning the spirnts...big paddle...probably a Rames Dble bend...then I watched the video of the Tahitians winning the Molokia last year...I watched them come in at Black Point...big bladed tear drops...and then I watched the recent videos of Team Hawaii...and they were all on what looked like to me fairly large bladed Broad Reach paddles. From the film it appeared there was nothing less then a 9 1/2" blade used by any of those guys. I would hate to be on a canoe with the only 10" blade while every one else is slipping through the water with their 8.5"'s at high stroke rates and thinking they are the ones moving the canoe.! I think if the larger blades are being used by V1 and OC6 and V6 guys who seem to dominate...then I would assume that those paddles are not selected out of capriciousness. Who wants to work harder...who wants to have to grab more water and hurt their shoulders.?..the guys that want to win.?
#75 Fri, 02/25/2011 - 9:02pm
Recently I have been paddling back in my home Island which has the big volume canoe called the "Mana" heavier than other locally made Takia. Requires 6 big island boys to carry no trolley.
After predominantly racing in mirages, and recenlty the light weight mirage version from Outrigger Connection I have found thet my Double Bend Teva hoe and Kialoa Lanikaii paddle suited the big volume canoes. Normally in a mirage my P2 DB from Xylo would be okay but have found with this smaller blade I wasn't getting a good bite or pull in the water (slippage??) with bigger volume heavier canoes. I have also used my big Tahitian Rames courtesy of Kapono.
@healthyearth.......Prior to last years hamilton Island Cup I also trained in heavier waterlogged Classic canoes( still fundraising for clubs first mirage). After using my P2 Xylo DB in previuos years in the mirages, I again started getting bigger volume blades for heavier canoes. Thus a new P4 19 93/4 from Xylo which I also used for WST sprints and Hammo Cup. This was a real bad boy paddle.Yes they required more work and strength but found hull speed also improved. I generally train in bigger volume paddles and can go to somehting smaller during a marathon depending on the lenght of the race. After about an 1hr 20-30min of paddling i do find the efficiencey of big volumes go down and I feel like I wish had a smaller blade. For race durations of constant non stop paddling of around 1.5 hrs i found big volume blades to me most comfortable to use.
Now and then when I jump back in a mirage with any of my big volume paddles It feels so heasy pulling the canoe.
Part of the reason I also use big volume paddles is weight. Usually a seat 3 or 4 wieghing at 120kg i feel it helps my crew out. But as they say its not the size, but the fight in the dog.
#76 Mon, 02/28/2011 - 4:26pm
I say train on big paddle with alternate small paddle high Cardio-rate; will create new muscle confusion and create new mucle memory. Come Race day go back to small paddle- it should feel like nothing and keep it in the tapping fast rate motion (In the water with good snappy recovery) that create lift in the water =speed.
Like throwing a flat stone in the water that skips= fast , than round that sink = slowing.
#77 Wed, 10/26/2011 - 1:14pm
Muscles don't have memory.... Muscles only respond to what the brain tells them to do.... Different load forces require different muscular activity, but the brain still controls the force load.
#78 Wed, 10/26/2011 - 4:04pm
Eckhardt, I would say your vents work because they maintain the laminar flow on the back side of the blade longer. The power phase is essentially downward, so the water is flowing UP the blade. Standard flat-ish paddles have flow separation about midway up the back face, losing efficiency. This is why curved/scooped paddles are more efficient - they maintain laminar flow longer (Coanda effect). If one can maintain laminar flow longer, wider shoulders become effective.
Paddle width is influenced by the presence (or lack) of dihedral. A wider paddle without dihedral quickly develops crabbing (von Karmann vortices) which wastes the paddler's energy - sore shoulders from all the lateral effort trying to control a wildly crabbing blade. Without dihedral, narrower paddles work better: with dihedral, one could go for a wider blade keeping in mind that, as pointed out earlier, there is an optimum bladewidth/bladelength ratio. As well, the shape of the blade (the location of the point of greatest width) is important. Teardrops work better than squarish "snowshovel" shapes. In general, a short, wide blade inhibits water flow up the blade.
#79 Wed, 10/26/2011 - 6:23pm
FBI !
Google Muscle Memory and Muscle confusion maybe you'll learn something new.
#80 Thu, 10/27/2011 - 6:14am
Kaipu: I like your skipping stone example. Check out the Quick Blade site for the paddling video that shows some of these SUP paddlers getting as much as 8 inches skip ahead (not slip back) of their blade. Now that's propulsion.
#81 Thu, 10/27/2011 - 7:50am
Kaipu, Do muscles really have memory? No, muscles have cells called 'proprioceptors' that detect any changes in position, force or tension of your muscles and translates that information to your brain via the central nervous system. The muscles don't just move on their own and create their own memorized movement patterns..... Muscle confusion has nothing to do with changing blade size only as the movement patterns are not being altered, just the force load.
#82 Thu, 10/27/2011 - 10:21am
not sure if its the same but I found what a paddler practice like is what he races like. its great if you can get in with some competitive group and race every night at practice. there's a style if your in great shape and have a high repetition a big blade 12 inch goes with a short over all length 47. that some guys can make work but the norm seams to be 18 x 9 1/4 blade with a 51 length. I had a partner in doubles that had a fast stroke. and I would just do my best to keep up but I have a slow stoke so it was a adjustment. the same with my son but hes 11. I hate it when we get to the race and someone wants to change what we practice like to create a game plan for the race. you can say all that stuff but whatever you've been practicing like is what you will do once the race starts.
#83 Thu, 10/27/2011 - 11:11am
I gotta agree w/mulus. Practice how you play.
#84 Thu, 10/27/2011 - 2:04pm
Capnron,
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the laminar flow info, so forgive me.
-Kaneohe
#85 Fri, 10/28/2011 - 6:28am
Capnron,
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the laminar flow info, so forgive me.
-Kaneohe
#86 Fri, 10/28/2011 - 6:29am