Open class for HCRA distance season?

Are any of this season's distance races going to have an open division? (Duke, Dads Center, Henry, E Lau Hoe, etc..) I thought last year Duke was going to have an open division. It's only 20ish miles, it should have an iron open division.

Submitted by healthyearth on Tue, 06/19/2012 - 1:12pm



Have you read the OHCRA race rules on what it is that you're asking about? If not, start there, with the regulations. It is not a simple matter of deciding as a club to host an open class division. I have been in the middle of the Duke Race negotiations in 2010 and 2011 along with our OHCRA Rep, our club president, our Race Committee Chairman, with the intention of having open class canoes in the Duke Race.

As PA'A and now Olamau leadership has expanded open class racing opportunities in Hawaii, there is a growing number of open class canoes. In 2010, there were not enough hulls to have a meaningful race. In 2011, there was not enough appetite among those who had custody of one. In both years, the initiative also needed to meet OHCRA Race Rules, and have participants willing to start two hours apart from the 400lb canoes.

LCC has no plan to introduce an Open Class into this year's Duke Race.
Perhaps the other distance race host clubs have initiatives in motion.

Brett Fillmore
LCC Board Member


#1 Tue, 06/19/2012 - 4:44pm


thanks for trying Brett! I remember talking to you about this a couple years ago.

a two hour staggered start. how silly.


#2 Tue, 06/19/2012 - 5:57pm


As I understand:

HCRA allows an open class division which includes a 400 pound weight restriction. But, each island is allowed their own rules. The Big Island specifically allows lighter canoes in their open division, while OHCRA's race rules allow the open class and don't mention weight. Quoted from OHCRA's race rules:

Article IX. C:
Open Class Division

  1. The canoe will be a single canoe hull, rigged with a single ama and double 'iako separated by at least one seat.
  2. The hull of the canoe may be constructed from any or all types of material.
  3. There must be no mechanical devices or additional attachments for bailing, power, or steering.
  4. The canoe must have positive buoyancy with compartments located only at the bow and stern of the canoe.
  5. Only single blade paddles must be used and there must be six (6) paddlers in a canoe.

So, while in theory they allow for an open class division, they (like Brett made reference to) dissuade it with the following rules:

Article XVI. B:
General Regulations

  1. Sponsors wishing to promote an event cannot include the open division with the koa division, and/or non koa division.
  2. All OHCRA member clubs are prohibited from competing in any type of race that would allow the open class division to compete with the koa and/or non-koa division.
  3. Sponsors wishing to promote or hold an open class race must first offer a Hawaiian class, if both events are held on the same day.
  4. An open class race must start no less than two (2) hours following the Hawaiian class, if both events are held on the same day.

If you believe that open class canoes should be able to race in OHCRA races, then send a letter to the board of your club and info@ohcra.com. Feel free to copy and paste my letter below. It's our club's representatives who have the power to change the rules.

Aloha OHCRA Board Members,
I am writing to you in support of amending the General Regulations for OHCRA sanctioned races. I believe that you are doing a disservice to the sport of outrigger canoe paddling by effectively ending the evolution of the Hawaiian Canoe. The Hawaiian culture is alive and one of its manifestations is the art of outrigger canoe paddling. Every other living aspect of the Hawaiian culture has continued to evolve freely except for the outrigger canoe. OHCRA has the power to change that. Please remove articles B.5, B.7, and B.9 from XVI of the OHCRA race rules. You have been a steward of the Hawaiian Canoe since 1979, please continue to provide the leadership that we all depend on. Thank you for all you do for the sport and for Hawai'i.

Mahalo,

Luke Evslin

  • As a full disclaimer: a business of which I am part-owner stands to profit from the production of open-class canoes. What I wrote above is not the view point of the business, it is my view point. I've been hesitant to be too vocal on this front for that reason. I am passionate about outrigger canoe paddling, so it's my livelihood. It's not the other way around and that's an important distinction. But, I do understand if you take what I say with a grain of salt because of where I work.

#3 Tue, 06/19/2012 - 6:26pm


As a racer that has gotten the opportunity to race in our "Unlimited" class here in California; it was one of the neatest races that I've done in my short paddling career. The ability to get on bump and surf these canoes makes the grinding upwind and side-swell legs of the race worth it!

The new canoes that are being produced by builders from Hawai'i, Oahu, Newport, Santa Barbara, Oxnard, etc. are maintaining the tradition of building a wa'a, but they're doing it with 21st century methods and materials. There has been no respect lost on the art of building and racing an outrigger canoe due to the newer means and methods, rather, there has been a resurgence of desire to learn and appreciate the intricacies of building and racing a wa'a.

I am personally glad that California has been able to open up and allow the entry of a new class of competition as it is generating excitement all around the region. With the restrictions now lifted, builders are hitting the drawing boards and trying to out-do each other with the best type of outrigger canoe.


#4 Wed, 06/20/2012 - 4:52am


Thanks Luke. (Spooky those rules are)

I will send the letter and encourage everyone that cares to see this happen to do the same.

For anyone that wants to see how Adam Smith's "The invisible hand" works, just look at how Pa'a or whomever will slowy take paddlers away from HCRA. Thus making HCRA irrelavant and then associations like Pa'a will be instrumental in taking paddling to new heights. The crossover will be slow, but a tipping point will happen. By that time it will be too late for HCRA to get back in the game. HCRA hasn't evolved and refuses to- evolving is essential to survival.........!


#5 Wed, 06/20/2012 - 4:12pm


Pailolo Challenge hosted by Hawaiian Canoe Club has offered an unlimited division for the past two years. Come get some:)

www.Pailolo.com
"the worlds funest canoe race"


#6 Wed, 06/20/2012 - 6:45pm


Oh ya there's free food, free beer and free tshirt too... Just in case the 26 mile DOWNWIND course wasn't enough;)


#7 Wed, 06/20/2012 - 6:47pm


as I understand, new rules for the open class were brought up at the OHCRA meeting earlier this year, not sure on the specifics of the proposed rules, but in any case they were rejected for whatever reason. I know that my club voted in favor of it, even though we no more open class canoe. Just want to see things progress!


#8 Wed, 06/20/2012 - 10:14pm


Every Club should vote like that !
aloha,
pog


#9 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:20am


i just realized that i won't be racing another OHCRA race in the foreseeable future. dodged a bullet on that one.

looking forward to Olamau 2013.


#10 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 8:57am


My personal opinion is that paddlers should vote YES for an open class to exist in all future HCRA and OHCRA races. However, my reason for justifying this movement may differ from most other paddlers. I believe that the greatest benefit paddlers stand to gain from such a movement is the promise of greater longevity in the sport. I don't just mean this for joint health and the obvious physical benefits but also with regards to the future. The future which is obviously the young children who compete or are yet to compete in the sport. With a lighter canoe the strength to weight ratio is drastically improved. We owe it to our own future and to our children to push the evolution of canoe design.

With that said there will be growing pain as we transition to more updated canoe designs. It is paramount that we realize how this will impact the associations that work very hard to officiate our races and keep us all honest. With a diverse field of competing canoes it will require greater resources to officiate this field i.e. a greater number of certified officials more support boats and more fuel for those support boats etc. Not to mention that a more spread out field could potentially thin out resources that could otherwise be allocated to ensuring the safety of everyone on the water that day. So let's all slow down for a second and take a deep breath and look at the sport we love. We must be gracious and thank those that are doing their best to put on these world class events. Now the true crux about this movement is not to convince everyone to vote yes but to come up with practical solutions to making it possible.

With that said I am fully willing to do whatever I can to perpetuate the koa tradition. If there is a koa builder out there willing to take on an apprentice sign me up ASAP!

Gaucho


#11 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 9:26am


Hey Guys...HCRA's sole reason for existence is for the State Championship regatta...that's it. HCRA does not sponsor distance races. I believe the battle is at the island association level, so take your gripe to OCHRA, Hui Wa'a, Maui, & Big Island associations.

With that said, I had to comment on the great video's Colin posted on the Hammo races. Note all the open boats on the water. Seems as though the Kamanu boats in Australia are busting out all over the place. Nice to see. Now, if only could watch with some smoking waters like what Hawaii has. That would be really fun to watch.

uncle ron


#12 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:12am


i agree with gaucho somewhat. but I can't see more resources being needed to officiate an unlimited race. what qualifications are needed except being able to see that a boat has an ama and two iako (if that should be the rule) or being able to use a scale (if there is a weight limit)? stagger a race start so that all boats finish at approximately the same time instead of two hours apart. you'll then have a race within a race and it could actually be MORE interesting to watch all these different boats duke it out. not to mention the field will be compacted and will require less officials on the water.


#13 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 11:43am


@RatchetJaws, just to clarify that the canoes you see in the Hamo videos are all spec (i.e.conform with AOCRA regulations). The current minimum weight in Australia is 130kg (286lb). Up until this year the weight limit was 155kg (341lb) so at the moment, we have canoes of both weights competing in the same category. What we do have is a variety of canoe designs (Mirage, Bradley, Kamanu, Southern Spirit, Tiger) to choose from. What we DON'T have are smokin' conditions like you guys in Hawaii (sad face).

Cheers.


#14 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 12:10pm


RachetJaws: Thank you for clarifying. I am now directing my posts to Island associations...in particular the OHCRA.

JC: That is excatly the constructive input I was looking for thank you. Just after I posted another friend suggested offsetting extra cost (if any) by raising entry fees specifically for open class canoes. Hey you want to race that super special new canoe in the Molokai Hoe this year, well that'll be an extra $100 per head (hypothetically). Then the OHCRA can donate the extra $ (if any) into sponsoring a junior crew for the following Molokai Hoe.

While we are examining the issue of a field that is potentially spread "too thin" perhaps we should look at how freakin fast the Tahitians are. If they don't start slowing down or we dont start speeding up we are going to need more support boats anyways.

My vote on a staggered start is NAY. Line them up and let them rip into the same conditions as everyone else. Freedom, Justice, and open water for all.


#15 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 3:20pm


starting same time would be ideal... I was just making the suggestion to keep the field from spreading if officials were getting too spread out. If safety boats are involved, then yes, let em rip.


#16 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 9:54pm


Some benefits to open iron race (I understand that all open races won't be iron).
On big wind days it spooky trying to either get on the race boat (ie. make a change) or trying to get on escort boat.

Less people being injured on boat changes. I've known of people breaking noses etc... I think Peter Konohia pulled a shoulder out of place one year. We all know somebody that got busted up on a change or some sort.

I think we all know the dangers of escort boats buzzing around while paddlers are doing changes.

The money saved on escort boats would be about $750 per race. Fine change me an extra hundos to race iron division, I still save $550 per race canoe.

I'm looking forward to the relay race Manny is putting on. Da Shabangg!!!


#17 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 3:53pm


I think most of us on this forum agree that the sport of outrigger 6man canoe racing is evolving in the right direction with the "open"class canoes and races. Paddlers are moving faster and having more fun. However, some of the more prestigious races still do not permit the use of these canoes (Duke, Henry, Molokai). Things will change and these races will eventually adapt. History has shown us...Queen Liliuokalani, Maui to Molokai, and Catalina have all accepted (embraced) the "open" concept with success.
Not so long ago the annual Molokai Surf Ski race was the premier venue for the OC-1 race. It was run in the shadow of their event. PAA came in and created an exclusive OC-1 world championship and greatly progressed the sport (Thanks PAA). Progression will happen with the unlimited 6man canoes as well...give it time.
Aloha.


#18 Thu, 06/21/2012 - 4:31pm


i like the fact that at least in "MOLOKAI HOE" it makes me feel good to know that i am competing against others in boats that are virtually limited to certain weight and design in which everyone has a chance to be somewhat equal and let our paddling decide the rest. until boats can be made available to all. I like restrictions in at least the MOLOKAI HOE.


#19 Fri, 06/22/2012 - 6:00pm


very true, Adam. but every time canoes evolved in the past, not everyone had the newest thing. also, all these new canoes from all the different builders are for sale... and they're not insanely expensive. many clubs buy a new boat every one to two years. No reason this couldn't be done with the new boats.

also, what about OC-1 racing? Everyone uses different canoes. they have different water lines, rockers, widths, rudders, ama, etc. yet even in this case the results page only shows the order everyone finishes. we don't show the result of every PA'A race with an asterisk because someone won on a Scorpius. When you or anyone else (pretty much everyone) beats me in a race I don't say it's the canoe. I know that you and all the other guys and girls ahead of me were better that day.


#20 Sat, 06/23/2012 - 6:55pm


We should re-name this posting "Open Class Catch 22"

Keola_24: You are 100% justified to desire an even playing field in the Molokai Hoe. You are also fully correct about the necessity for new canoes to become available and affordable before we introduce them to our sports grandest event.

However, in response I dare to venture that Team Primo should have a go this year in an unlimited canoe just for sake of what the end result might be. I don't really care what craft they are in I just want every Molokai Hoe event coordinator out there to witness the difference it will make. I realize that statement may have a "chip on the shoulder" tone to it...that's because it does. Although this is a history repeating itself type situation I guess I don't care much about that anymore either.

JC: You are correct about these canoes being affordable, however, as Keola_24 pointed out they are not yet available in the quantities necessary for a full division to be recognized by OHCRA. Here in lies the catch and the question of what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Hopefully there is an opportunist (or group of opportunists) out there whom has the means and is ready to take the leap.

Canoesurf: Perhaps you sum it up the best. The change will happen, but not overnight...ahhh sigh of relief.

Believe me I'm showing extreme restraint with these posts. I for one believe very strongly that open class canoes should have been making there way into the field at least a decade ago.


#21 Sat, 06/23/2012 - 11:51am


Paddleboard prone racing went thru this same dilema/growing pains in the early 90's. Cline Mann used to host 2 annual races (summer and winter) out of Outrigger Canoe Club. The rules were strict - 12 foot maximum length and 20 lbs minimum weight. All competitors had to adhere to these rules to race. The race was "fair" due to everyone competing on the same equipment. However, paddleboards evolved and an "unlimited" division was soon established. Now, boards had no limits and the competitors who had them were generally beating the paddlers who were on the older "stock" boards. This forced the participants in the sport to get unlimited boards to stay competitive. Now, the sport is all about unlimited boards and going fast. I dont think Jaime Mitchell has won a Molokai paddleboard race on a stock board?
Outrigger 6man racing will follow this history soon enough.
Aloha.


#22 Sat, 06/23/2012 - 7:10pm


As soon as the top guys start training more in open boats they will eventually abandon the HCRA races. When that happens, the HCRA races will quickly lose their luster.


#23 Sun, 06/24/2012 - 7:24pm


In favor of Unlimited, but where does it stop? The path of Rowing, where the norm is 50-60k for a honeycomb carbon fiber hull?
What about really pushing the envelope.....work on getting the price down for these unlimited canoes. That would be a great path. How many clubs are going to pay 18-24k every year to get the newest and greatest thing? SUPs are one thing, where somebody just has to cough up 2k, but for a normal club to cough up 18K+ almost every year? Not sure about that path for canoe clubs in general.
This is something that Associations need to consider..........Just because your club cannot afford an Unlimited canoe means you may not have a chance to take the overall win, no matter how hard you train. Money wins........guess we'll be like every other sport out there. Kneel down to the almighty dollar.


#24 Sun, 06/24/2012 - 8:27pm


Wanted to add something, it's not so much OHCRA's fault that we cant race unlimited canoes in these races so dont put all the blame on them or any other race sanctioning organization, rules for the open class were proposed but turned down by the CLUBS within OHCRA. I dont know who voted which way, but I'm gonna guess availability and money have a little say in which way some may vote. So if we want an open class, do what luke says (we should all do this anyway in all aspects of life!) and email your clubs board members and make sure they know the reason why we want um. By the way, the back manu on the new Kamanu canoe looks mean, dey should all have dat! shoots den bulleh


#25 Sun, 06/24/2012 - 8:53pm


meh


#26 Sun, 06/24/2012 - 11:28pm


k

I think the unlimited race spec needs to be tightened up amongst the new generation of race organizers, like Olympic kayak spec/rules. Anything outside of this new category/division should go into 'experimental', like open deck six mans with rudders and hydrofoils, hahaha!


#27 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 12:17am


There really is no reason to limit the "unlimited" class. As long as the canoe is powered by 6 paddlers and has no extra artificial devices to help steer or add power to the canoe, I say let these builders take the design of the outrigger canoe to the next step.


#28 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 2:36am


b-rad-
That makes a lot of sense to me. If I was a club leader I would tend to think twice about Unlimited. Each club has a lot of hard work and money invested in their current fleet. To add the pressure of coming up with 18k almost every year for who knows how long, can be a daunting task.
Kileki- One reason to limit the "unlimited" class is to make sure it's not just about money. How much fun will this sport be when somebody like Larry Ellison drops cool coin and designs these one off 50lb canoes. Him and his 5 buddies can go to any race and win, simply because he has the money? Yuck.
What about durability? How many clubs can invest in a 18k canoe that may or may not last a complete season, or for that matter, a canoe that can only be raced, as practicing in them puts too much stress.
Unlimited design yes, but weight would be one way to limit costs. Heck a 300lb layup would have been an improvement. Would not take much effort to get there.
Just trying to look at both sides of this issue. Light canoes are probably the future, but let's not screw up such a great sport and become the America's Cup. Just throwing money down the drain, that kind of money should be thrown at keiki programs. Just my opinion of course.


#29 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 8:09am


Thanks Toko..you summed up how a lot of paddlers feel. I read what Nappy said a few years ago about changing the canoe qualifications...he wasn't very supportive....for the reasons about the races becoming more about equipment and affordability issues We have seen the Koa displaced by the plastic canoes and the malia designs replaced by the modern canoe designs. I am sure some of the larger clubs did not vote to change the rules for similar reasons. The Koa divisions and the malia divisions in the Molokai are no longer represented by too many clubs. I imagine the same thing will happen as the unlimiteds start breaking in...become the type of canoe to have and all those mirages and Bradleys that everyone has been buying over the years play a secondary role.


#30 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 9:28am


haters:

I hope the irony is not lost on those who claim financial considerations weigh against having an unlimited class in trying to make races even or fair. While I am most certainly for the preservation of the Koa canoe and support its perpetuation, it is undoubtedly more expensive than an unlimited canoe; and the Koas, as we all know, are not all equal.

The bottom line is, if the club wants one, a club can afford one. So please don't hide behind money as a reason to hate on the unlimited.

Just look at the progressive nature of Lanikai. They are not only at the forefront of perpetuating the Koa canoe by racing it in Molokai, they also own their own unlimited canoe and race it on a regular basis. Why, because they want it more.

Further, I hope the irony is not lost on those who claim "traditional" designs spec preserve Hawaiian racing. The only reason why the specs were created in the first place was to slow down the tahitians who kicked hawaii's ass way back when. Furthermore, said specs were taken off fishing canoes rather than racing canoes, which were all but lost. In the old days, the kalai wa`a was not governed by any sort of specs, rather mother nature and the form and shape of the log.

so please, before you start hating, educate yourself on the evolution of the Hawaiian canoe. the specs and weight restrictions are arbitrary at best, and at worst, a regression of a once unlimited and storied practice of the ancient ones. The ocean and log dictate the shape, not the people. auwe.


#31 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 10:16am


Wow, you must not communicate with others much. People offering opinions somehow get labeled as "haters"? Pretty funny. I'm assuming you are not heavily involved with any particular canoe club, or perhaps a club that has limited access to funds. Believe it or not, there are plenty clubs out there that cannot afford 18k+ every year for the newest greatest canoe. Some people may not care, just as long as they get theirs, hey more power to them, but again, consider some of the thinking from some of these club leaders.
You might want to go out in the world and see that not everybody has money to burn. No matter how much I want something, that does not mean I can afford something. That's a pretty ludicrous statement. Though perhaps it's just your opinion. You are more than welcome to voice it, however, labeling others as haters for simply bringing up points that may be different than yours, probably belongs on other type of sites. You know, the type where trolls live for that kind of stuff. Get your facts in order and write them in a manner that is in the spirit of the sport.
Again, I'm in favor of some sort of unlimited class, but cost should be a factor as it pertains to our sport here in Hawaii. I could be wrong, but I don't see a lot of 100k savings accounts at all of the canoe clubs here in Hawaii. I could be wrong though.


#32 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 12:47pm


It does not require a new canoe every other year; you are taking an extreme point of view this. the point is, if a club can afford a koa, surely it can afford an unlimited. dont hide behind it as an excuse to not let the sport progress. your concern is tantamount to voicing the same complaints to paa and kanaka ikaika when you dont have the best or lightest one-mans at your disposal.


#33 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 1:19pm


Toko2 right on I'm in favor as well, however, 50 lb $60k Larry Ellison canoe is not realistic. Let's not let our imaginations carry us away.


#34 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 1:26pm


Actually, if Unlimited really takes off, a once a year investment will be the norm for the first few years, that is if you want to be competitive. When a better design or layup comes into fashion, you have to buy it to be competitive. You don't have to train harder, just be better at raising money.
I don't see many clubs buying multiple Koa canoes. It's cost restrictive for sure. I don't want to see the Unlimited Designs go down that path. To pricey or fragile to race all the time.
It's the early stages of the unlimited class. Designers probably don't want to invest in a mold at this time, though I believe there are a couple out there and know at least one is going to be built soon.
Most of the current unlimiteds are one off designs, using wood/foam strips over stations that are ever evolving. Why not put the energy in coming up with faster designs, not just lighter weight? Though I'm sure it will get to a point where these designs can get too light.
AGAIN, I'm in favor of unlimited designs, but feel there should be some limits set on things that will keep the price from being the limiting factor. I don't need to hide, I'm only trying to look at things from both sides. You need to know how the other side feels so that you can come up with some solutions so that all can be on the same page. No reason to just sit and bang your head on the table. Open discussion is the best, even if the "other" side does not agree all the time. Figure out their issues and see what you can do to work with them.


#35 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 1:36pm


Gaucho- I don't know, if Ellison wanted a 50lb canoe, I have a feeling it would not be out of the realm of reality for him. I can't imagine the amount of money he is pouring into his Syndicate. Money solves a lot of problems, the problem is getting the money.
As you say, realistically, why would an Ellison want to invest in our sport. Good riddance.


#36 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 1:39pm


you are missing the point. let it be a club's prerogative if it wants to purchase a new unlimited. Just because club A does not want to buy a new unlimited, rules and restrictions should not hamper club B's desire to purchase and race a new unlimited. Also you are giving too much "wieght" to the canoe's weight as far a performance. the first bunch of canoes in the Ola mau were not the lightest; furthermore, of the top five unlimiteds in the olamau, only one crew had a "new" boat. Primo, livestrong, Lanikai, and huilanakila all had relatively "old" unlimiteds.


#37 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 1:51pm


I magician should never reveal his secrets, but I've got to teach some economic wala magic, wala magic, wala magic.

Lets use cell phones as an example of how new products enter the system expensive, are then bought by the people who chose to invest their own capital (wealth really isn't the only factor here suprisingly, here is an example. The people who currently spend the most money on paddling are not the people who have the most wealth. I understandt it's easier for wealthier individuals to do, it's the people who choose to invest their capital there over other places.) and thus bring the price down.

Back in the 90's a cell phone cost $1,000. Now you can get one for free and talk "unlimitted" for $30 a month....... and you don't have long distance fees. What you get now in a cell phone and data plan is more and cheaper than you could ever get on your land line phone. How did that happen? Was it magic?!! Nope....

A few people chose to buy them.
Cell phone makers made a profit and invested in better business practices so they could sell more at a lower cost so more people would by them and make them more money.
Wala magic- prices came down because they were able to produce more and at lower cost.
Now more capitalist saw that this could be a way to make money so then they invested more money in making a better product and cheaper.
Now at this people businesses said this product is more appealling than land line phones plus we can sell more of these becuase instead of people sharing phones in a house, each person would need their own phone.
Now more money went into production they got cheaper and at that point it was obvious that businesses can make these things cheaper and better than any land line phone..... also they can sell a whole lot more of them and people all over the world would one day be able to afford these phone.
Now wala magic- people all over the world (I know cause I've traveled to some pretty remote regions) have cell phones that .........wait..........also have complete access to the greatest wealth of knowledge that has ever been gathered........the world wide web. From Sri Lanka to Hawaii people have cell phones that have access to the internet and all this is cheaper than what a land line phone once cost and the "data" that would allow you to only call your instate neighboys for free.

Encore- encore- encore- encore
That $1000 in 1990 for that cell phone in todays doallars would cost $1800. So that 29.99 ish mobi plan that is advertised today in 1990 dollars would cost $16.76.

Breaking up the Ma Bell monopoly was.... wala magic.

So yes in the beginning only a few people will have the open canoes. But, those are the growing pains. I for one see what the results can be of those growing pains.


#38 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 3:17pm


Toko2: I'm sorry but I see no ground for an argument based on speculation to stand. Who knows if there will be a new design each year, heck there might be a new one each day for all we know. Who says designers are focused on weight and not speed? I would hope that a designer would look to find the perfect balance between weight, performance, durability, and safety. Maybe if a canoe is designed well enough it can be all of those things and affordable.

As for potential investors how can you without fully understanding a situation or a person be so quick to judge? I guess you might know something I don't.


#39 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 3:59pm


Geeze...I thought it was figured out that unlimited canoes could race across the channel. auwe..there was even prize money. All anyone gets from the Molokai hoe is a perpetual trophy,.,..(which should be in tahiti somehwere but is whoknowswhere ? )...maybe prestige and accolades..but money works. Unlimited should have their own race but do not get all huhu because of a different take on the whole thing ... where tradition counts and as far as an even field... where equipment counts. You guys want to go Grand Prix...awesome...maybe some guys still like NASCAR.
No haters in this post and want to say...unlimited canoes....hano hano !


#40 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 5:23pm


Healthy- I applaud you with your example, however I don't think using the cellphone market really has anything to compare with the outrigger world. What, maybe over a billion phones made since the first cellphone? That's just a pure guess. Hard to compare that logic to the amount of canoes clubs here in Hawaii.
Not sure if we're going to see a big drop in the cost of unlimited canoes, unless they are sent overseas and a big YUCK there. Perhaps the local shops can cut down a bit of labor, but their other costs probably are not going to fall much.
Again, I think there is a place for Unlimited Canoes, this whole attitude that clubs are misguided by not buying into it, is a bit short sided and perhaps does not consider what clubs go through to raise money to purchase new equipment. Let those that can afford to buy more expensive canoes continue with what they are doing. No reason to stop them. Let them race all the races, why not. No harm. But no need to call people haters for being financially responsible with their clubs.


#41 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 7:49pm


my small budget Hui Wa'a clubs from 1988-2002 purchased something like 6 different canoe designs (one new design just under every 3 years). we had a canoe every year that was only used for racing. from 1997-2002 we were able to buy one canoe every year. all through fundraising.

outrigger paddling used to be all about the canoe. current rules changed that. the Malia is not the name of a mold. It is an actual canoe with a very interesting history. new exciting boats can create great stories while restoring the excitement, energy, and individual spirit that unique canoes of the past had. the same can be said for koa canoes. they each have a shape, identity and spirit all their own. koa canoes are incredibly expensive, can only be raced, and are quite fragile. so why do we seek to eliminate this by making all our boats cheap identical carbon copies of each other? because we have the desire to compare ourselves to others? because we don't want to fundraise?


#42 Mon, 06/25/2012 - 11:16pm


Bradley Lightening Cost
330S $11250
380T $12000
275L $12850
180U $16250
Spray Covers $1800

Look like a spec boat cost as little as $13050 (with spray cover) up to ($18050). A brand new unlimited canoe with spray cover cost about $18500 delivered. Price doesn't seem to be anymore than purchasing any new top of the line spec boat.

In the flat water Catalina race held here in California, the record is still held by an original Bradley canoe from 1998. The Mirage, Bradley Lightening, and even the new unlimited canoes could not break the record in 24 years. Those paddlers in the 90's must have been really fast in order to make up for their slow/heavy canoe designs.

At the end of the day the new Unlimiteds don't paddle them selves.


#43 Tue, 06/26/2012 - 2:47am


Toko,

HealthyE is actually pretty correct in his comparison of the two markets. You've got to realize that once a general design is deemed "good enough" by a company, they will create the mold for the canoe and their construction costs will go way down. The builder then becomes more efficient, using fewer materials and less man hours to create the same product.

Once an acceptable mold is complete, the builder will still be able to tweak the design by adding in various contour joggles and other layup changes.

Right now, it is being said that if a mold can be completed, a fully built canoe can be built for roughly 1/2 the cost of a one-off, thus effectively ending your concern for the inability of a club to purchase an Unlimited canoe.


#44 Tue, 06/26/2012 - 2:50am


Thanks for all the input. As I mentioned in my first post, I'm in favor of Unlimited Canoes. My main point was to have a discussion about it and take on some of the points from the "other" side.
Some of the tones here were a bit, if you are not on board, you are wrong. Perhaps with the right type of discussion, these club leaders that voted against having Unlimited will think twice about it. Calling them "haters" and other putting other labels on them will not help the effort.
Let's see what happens.


#45 Tue, 06/26/2012 - 4:59am


toko, don't want to get in the proverbial pissing contest with you, but I was not calling the "club leaders" haters, I was calling your opposition based upon speculation as hating. Your financial concern was not based in reality. join in the fun. That said, i apologize to poi and yourself for any offense.

on a side note, with hcra in tact, koa canoe racing "tradition" will be maintained. but as far as distance is concerned how can we rationally consider the ochra or hcra specs as "preserving tradition" when the specs are purely arbitrary?


#46 Tue, 06/26/2012 - 9:35am


Its funny how things go full circle...to paraphrase Tommy Holmes,"The Hawaiian Canoe"..."in 1954 a standard minimum canoe weight of 400 pounds was set, in response to complaints that racing canoes weighing between 250 and 300 pounds held an unfair advantage". To get at the 400 pounds they weighed some actively raced koa canoes and arrived at a rough average wieight..


#47 Wed, 06/27/2012 - 6:37am


i'm starting a grass roots movement. one man canoes are getting too light and are made out of materials that are only for millionaire yachts and the like. they've got no manu on them and no wood at all. we should all be paddling carved or glassed/molded one man canoes that are at least 67 lbs (1/6th of 400). at $4200 or more for a one man no one can buy them anymore. regular people like me will never be able to get one. they come out with these new canoes year in and year out and all the poor guys are left behind. none of the used boats that are still good ever hit the market and sell for cheap. i've never seen any of these new fangled one man canoes last more than a season.


#48 Thu, 07/05/2012 - 3:34pm


The vote was 6 for 200lbs boats and 11 against it as I recall in the OHCRA meeting.


#49 Fri, 07/06/2012 - 9:33am


Do the people who vote against actually paddle 400lbs canoes... I ask because in Tahiti, the people runing the F.T.V. (our paddling association) don't want lighter canoes, but they all weight over 220lbs (not the canoes, the people !) and they never sit in a canoe...


#50 Fri, 07/06/2012 - 12:38pm


i'm with jc9_0 on this one. so unfair.


#51 Fri, 07/06/2012 - 1:59pm


Obviously our rigging is way off too. Ama volume has gotten out of control as well. Time to reign that in.

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#52 Fri, 07/06/2012 - 8:58pm


jc- you are on fire and killing it.

Indar- thanks for the update- you are under appreciated.

Hiro C.- I think you are on to the truth with that last post.

Keliki- Thanks for seeing the forest through the trees, and backing me up.

Echart Diestel- we all miss you!! I know your alive cause I saw you at the Shabang. I wanted to say hi but I didn't want to seem too eager.

Toko- I see what you sayin. You ain't sayin.........you just sayin.

Danny Ching- Holly $h!zzle, you validated me by commenting on my post. It's nice to see a top dog commenting....aaaaand it was on my post. I'm totally telling everyone you commented on my post.....I consider us buds now. Do you? You don't have to answer in front of everyone. I'm totally down with the down low. I bet we have a lot in common but we just don't know it yet. I know we do . Do you like the Dark Knight.....I do!!

Ratchejtaws- You da man homie. Seriously dough......I love seeing you around my favorite island and seeing you post on here. You a good dude. Yes sir.......I'm sorry for saying "Dude". You a good man, Sir!


#53 Fri, 07/06/2012 - 11:46pm


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