Why is it that the Men/Women Master 40 race is the last race of the day? Would it make more sense to have it after the Senior Men?s/Women race? Just seems weird to have it at the end.
Submitted by edhay on Mon, 08/05/2013 - 11:55am
Why is it that the Men/Women Master 40 race is the last race of the day? Would it make more sense to have it after the Senior Men?s/Women race? Just seems weird to have it at the end.
Submitted by edhay on Mon, 08/05/2013 - 11:55am
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I agree!
#1 Mon, 08/05/2013 - 1:11pm
i would not attribute too much logic to the race format, let alone the absurd number of races.
a few thoughts:
they ought to do away with the mix races. and how many older age divisions do they need, come on?
to make it less painful, they should have the kids race on Saturday then the adults on Sunday. This would make it way easier on everyone.
the point system is a little ridiculous too, first place should get way more points than second and so on, so that the point system rewards quality rather than sheer quantity which in turn awards mediocre clubs with many entries.
the whole turn on a flag thing isn't traditional either, kind of silly actually, HCRA wants "traditional" canoes but hold races on non-traditional courses. why not have an out and back or a circle course?
and dont get me started on HCRA canoe design specs. utterly arbitrary and ridiculous.
#2 Mon, 08/05/2013 - 1:34pm
Lately, I've been liking everything numerouno says.
#3 Mon, 08/05/2013 - 7:27pm
Why is weird to have it at the end? Make it earlier or later somebody else going going grumble. Isn't regatta season all about da ohana, how multi generations of families spend the day together paddling? What makes your race more important than another? Cuz u think your division is more important than another? You crying about course being "non-traditional", hope you wear your malo when you race. You like grumble about spec requirements, go race only unlimited races. Nobody forcing you to paddle regattas. Oh yeah, sorry but not all of families can dedicate the whole weekend the entire season to paddling. Sometimes one day is hard enough! Might b hard for elite paddlers like yourself to understand, you guys/gals like jus come, race,win and leave, but for many, regatta season is much more than time of race, spec of boats, course,etc. you crybabies should jus paddle oc-1, but you would find something for cry about that too. Must be meeeaan fo be such awesome paddlers like u !
#4 Mon, 08/05/2013 - 11:19pm
Easy tigah.
All I am saying is I don't attribute much logic to the format, specs, and course. Well, I guess that is saying a lot...
I shared my thoughts with the hope to generate discussion regarding a problem we all too often have to face, regatta, brah...
#5 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 12:35am
Sorry youngsters. 60's men where event 4 at States. Cracking cold ones at Avery's patio overlooking the race course by 10:30 was "priceless".
#6 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 7:37am
Easy Bugs Bunny! If you look at the sequence of the format racing, it goes from 1/4 mile races, 1/2 mile races, 1 mile races, and then back to 1/2 mile races and then finish up with a 1 mile race. Master Men and Women 40s are just as competitive as the Open races. Keep them near those events. That?s all.
If and when we go back to 1/2 mile course set up, Maui and Big Island, I feel bad for those who have to wait the entire day to remove flags for the 1 mile race when it would be helpful to start breaking down the flags earlier and focus of 1/2 mile races. That way those who set and break down the race course can go home earlier to spend time with their ?ohana as well.
Sorry to have pissed you off. I guess asking here was a bad place. Btw- I suck at paddling, but at race site from start till end to help with club. Aloha!
#7 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:06am
I think the main events with two or more turns should be held at the end of the day. That would make the club competitions come down to the points scored in those races. Yeah...I liked racing early and agree with KGB...kick back and watch the action.
As far as older divisions and mixed...allows everyone a chance to paddle and participate...ohana, multigenerational..from grandchildren, to children, husbands and wives, parents and grandparents. It is a really great thing.
And for all you young guys who figure the paddling world rotates around your endeavors...you are going to be 60 and 70 someday and will look back at all the races you have done in your youth and at the same time glad there is an opportunity to race another day.
#8 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:11am
I think if u wanna shorten the race day, HCRA needs to take a serious look at what OHCRA did with the regattas this year. No it wasn't perfect and you can't make everyone happy. But at least they tried something and at least I felt it was pretty successful. We were finishing regattas by 3 or 330pm some days even with all the events, sure the start line was right near the beach on those days, but at least we went through all the races. No need cut any out!
I feel the longest part of the race day was the open races with all the miles. By changing freshman and sophomores to 1/4 and 1/2 mile respectively, it majorly quickened the day. Of course we all have the ability to race more than a quarter mile, but its more about a different discipline of racing, like at a track meet with different race lengths. OHCRA changed other mile races to 1/2 mile (except juniors) speeding up the day. THe races they changed from 1/2 to 1/4 mile wasn't the best idea, 9 times out of 10 it takes longer to paddle to the start line of a quarter mile than to just race to that same flag and back. duhh! And then the novice b men, 15 girls and boys had to do a turn at states for the first time all year, kind of a disadvantage.
I know, i know, we don't want to come to a regatta on another island, spend all that money to stay somewhere and not race more than a quarter mile. Well why not have a distance race the day after states every year, like we just had? Na pali was awesome, mahalo to the organizers and all the clubs loaning out canoes, and I'm pretty sure having the race the day after states didnt stop anyone from having a few (or many) cold ones saturday night and in some cases early into sunday morning...
As far as point system goes, Hawaiian CC won cuz they dominated all day. by event 20 they won like 8 races and were 2nd or 3rd in a bunch more. My "mediocre club with more entries" still couldnt keep up. congrats to them.
Back to the original topic, yup 40's at the end of the day is weird, maybe think of it like you're backing up your club with a last ditch effort to score them points at the end of the day? sucks that you cant drink beer earlier like KGB though.
#9 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:24am
I'm a paddler of Hawaiian Canoe Club (and an employee, wife of a coach, and daughter of a 65 master). I've been on the MCHCA and HCRA boards for a number of years. I run a major long distance canoe race. My son is named Ka'iwi, after the channel. To say my life revolves around paddling would be an understatement.
HCC had a crew in 36 or 41 events at States on Saturday. Every single crew contributed to our effort. It was very neat to watch the kids cheer for the 65s, 60s, 55s, 50s, and even the 40s at the end of the day. Many kids were cheering for their Tutus and Papas. I got to cheer for my dad who paddled in the 65 men's race. He had the time of his life paddling against his old teammates from the 1960s. He's retried and lives for moments like this when he feels like an athlete again: he gets to compete, be on the water, and have fun. Towards the end of the day he was leading cheers for the mixes: 55, 40, and open. He literally lost his voice. I hope to still be paddling when I'm 65+.
Our adults stood on the beach and beamed with pride as our keiki paddled their hearts out on Saturday. It's neat to watch these kids put in hours and hours of practice throughout the summer and have it culminate in an experience at States. It's the best feeling to know that these kids define themselves as paddlers. They aren't defining themselves as a druggie or a thug. Many of them might not know about Na Wahine or Moloka'i Hoe or unlimited canoes....not yet anyway! For them, the regatta season is their introduction, their indoctrination, into the world of canoe paddling. Paddling means just as much to them as it does to me. We owe it to these kids to keep the competition relevant, exciting, accessible, and fair.
On Saturday at the HCC tent every crew got a tunnel and every paddler got a hug. We would have done this for 10 crews or 100 crews. Our club unity means a lot and makes the money spent to get to Hanalei worth it.
Yes we won, but it was more special and magical to be one paddling 'ohana for the day. This is rare guys. I've competed in other sports at a high level and nothing compares to canoe paddling. Yes, the days are long and the logistics can be nightmarish (literally--I had nightmares about people missing flights, buses breaking down, and paddles being broken by TSA.) But there's nothing like this sport. There's nothing like a regatta in Hawai'i.
Now, can and should we evolve? Yes! Can and should we re-think the norms and consider changes that will strengthen the sport? Absolutely. But we shouldn't approach the conversation from the stand point "we need to shorten the day because people are busy." Are people busier today than they were 20 years ago? No, we just like to think we are busy to make ourselves feel important. We should approach the conversation as "what changes can we make to the format or technology to keep competition relevant, exciting, accessible, and fair?"
Here are my thoughts on some of the suggestions:
1. 40 masters at the end of the day. Someone has to be last. The 40s have something to look forward to: only 25 more years and you get to be event #1 or #2! Joking aside, I hear the argument to make the distances in some sort of ascending order (1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 1 mile, then 1 1/2 miles), but the officials seems to adapt fine to the changing lengths of the race. In the end, does it matter when you race? It's not like to don't know when you’re racing. You make plans accordingly.
#10 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 11:37am
@ Manakai- You sound like Manny K of Maui (always seem to put the sport first). People like you are great.
Keep up the hustle.
#11 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 1:38pm
I guess this thread is not just about the 40's at the end of the race but now about the race structure. Manakai...agree with all you said. Hawaiian Canoe club...best keiki program in the state, you all work really hard and compete harder, your club has awesome energy...I saw that. Being an Oahu guy from a large club...and I know you have heard it before....lane selection seems to favor the outer island clubs and particularly Hawaiian which is so dominant on Maui.. I hold boats and so get perspective on the different venues. Some lanes are very advantageous...in Hanalei...1 to 5 move....9 through 14 are like mud. River and wind effect...whatever. What I think would be interesting in the State's race would be lanes chosen by random lot versus seeding. Then no excuses.
#12 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 2:29pm
On right Manakai
#13 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 3:46pm
Speaking of States. I hope I am being accurate, but heard a group of Hui Nalu kids landed in Lihue on Island Air early Saturday morning only to be told that there was no I.A. representatives to deplane them. The kids where told by the I.A. pilot he would have to fly them back to HNL because of this. Apparently Renee Ching saved the day and the ramp guys from another airline got them off the plane. Any confirmation out there or another "what?" experience from that weekend?
#14 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 4:25pm
I would argue that lane selection is pretty fair and that association champions getting first pick is the reward for a successful regular season. In every major sport the winner of the regular season, or preliminary competition, is rewarded in the championship/final event. For example, swimmers with the fastest qualifying times get the middle lanes. Rewarding teams for their success in the regular season is a sporting norm.
Throwing that all out would still breed excuses. I can hear it now "we were MCHCA champs but we got an outside lane at States because it was random and that's why we didn't do as well."
#15 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 4:43pm
yeah KGB...I was with a dad early morning and he got a call from his 12 year old daughter in total distress that they were sending all the Hui Nalu kids back to Oahu. She was in tears. I do not know how it all worked out but heard another ground crew ran to their rescue and got them deplaned. I think the HCRA officials should get a Mahalo Nui for holding up the race awhile so those kids could paddle. That is Ohana...that is Aloha.
#16 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 6:08pm
my suggestion regarding have state on two separate days was intended not to split family nature of the event up, but rather make it more manageable. In this regard the keiki would get more attention and we all could embrace the moment. In the same vein, it would be more manageable for the adults. I dont think this will affect the shipping of the canoes either. YB's is closed on sunday anyway. futhermore, the keiki are on summer break, so no missing school.
I also like edhay's suggestion regarding having the senior events last. it makes it more climactic.
as to point system, it might be cool to weight certain races with more points. for instance, let's say the senior (supposedly the fastest crews of the day) events count for double the points. this sure as heck would add excitement to event. maybe do the same with the 18s for the kids since they are supposed to be the fastest youth on the water.
i am not dogging Hawaiian's impressive showing either. Of course regatta's mean the most to keiki (and the makule too, wink wink poidog), and we do not want to diminish that. nothing in my earlier posts suggests such.
as to participation, if mixed events promote participation, wouldn't the logical extension of that be that we should do away with allowing paddlers to race more than one event? such would definitely encourage participation.
Keep in mind these are just suggestions.
as to Manakai's no. 3 "a flag. But they also didn't use cotton rope, seat pads, a PA system, tents on the beach, and electrical timers." I dont see the analogy since the ancient ones had sennet, seats, and observers who could determine who won. what we do know is that they sure as heck didnt turn around a flag.
i totally agree with Manakai's no. 4
the culture of canoe racing is not a static entity stuck in time. I think its more than fair to offer critical analysis of how we can approve. I am not dogging the HCRA officials either. Its just the fact that some of the rules simply don't comport with HCRA's mission statement.
"Engage in, promote, encourage participation in, and provide education and instruction in Hawaiian and Polynesian culture through canoeing and other related activities on a local, national, and international basis; 2. To honor, preserve and perpetuate the combined culture, science, tradition and protocol of the Hawaiian Koa Canoe;
3.To encourage, maintain and perpetuate authentic Hawaiian canoe racing in Hawaii nei (i.e. the State of Hawaii)"
In fact, in some ways, it is my opinion that said rules actually inhibit the realization of said goals. There is simply no historical basis that the current specs reflect authentic Hawaiian canoe racing. I would love to take a time machine to ancient times and tell a kahuna kalai wa
a that his canoe is not to spec and therefore not an authentic hawaiian canoe. better have your running shoes on. the kahuna kalai waa would most definitely be insulted.futhermore, arent we teaching our keiki an inaccurate history regarding the specs? I'm sure some keiki might actually think that the specs come from ancient times, and that such is in fact an authentic Hawaiian canoe. this much is sad. who are we to say some two hundred years after "contact" what an authentic Hawaiian racing canoe and box said definition in leaving no room for evolution? this evolution, of course, is from the canoes that we know of today. for there is strong argument that the ancient racing canoes were much faster and more advanced design than the fishing canoes the specs were supposedly based upon.
We can still keep the manu on the canoes, keep them koa, no restrictions other than weight for koa at 400lb and 200lb for glass, and authentic Hawaiian canoe racing would be perpetuated. in doing so, we will travel into the future embracing the culture, and, it is my opinion, heading in this direction will also give us a glimpse into the past and honor those before us.
again, just my two cents
#17 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:38pm
I love the suggestion of doubling the points for certain races. That would certainly make a big impact on strategy.
@Numerouno: I didn't think you were dogging HCC at all. There was has been a lot of dogging of regattas in general (mostly in other threads) so I was just trying to make a case for why regattas as they are now are good/positive. My experience at States was fresh in my mind and seemed to illustrate most of my points.
I totally agree with Numerouno that some of the rules inhibit the fulfillment of HCRA's stated purposes. This is because the main tool HCRA has used to implement its purpose is competition. Competition needs to be fair and there needs to be standards. So if you want to compete, you have to meet the standards. Specifically, HCRA spells out standards for equipment like paddles and canoes. But there are a lot of other stated purposes in HCRA's bylaws. Lets explore how to create other programs and tools that fulfills HCRA's purposes besides competition.
Like I said in my earlier post, HCC really struggled with the decision to cut apart Pahilli Kiu so she would meet the canoe standards. On one hand it's insulting to our canoe builder Fafa that we would cut apart the canoe he conceived just to meet HCRA standards. What about Fafa's standards? After all, we considered him an expert builder. On the other hand, this canoe was built to race in today's world. Are we restricting, or taking away, her mana by not allowing her to race?
So where do we draw the line as to what truly is 'traditional'? This debate is not unique to canoe paddling as we see it in hula and Hawaiian language for example. This needs to be part of the conversation I think HCRA could help lead. I know it came up in the past for koa canoes. In response, HCRA went around the state measuring koa canoes to come up with the current standards based on averages. What can we do beyond this? What should we do?
I'm curious to hear from those with more knowledge about traditional Hawaiian canoes as to what elements are truly unique to the Hawaiian canoe. Are those the things we keep? Numerouno's suggestion in his last paragraph sound like a good start to me.
#18 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:23pm
Worked for us.
Heck yeah it's a long day, we didn't get to the line til 6:40pm.
Whatever the format, whenever the time, it's canoe racing, what we get to do here in Hawaii, as far as canoe racing goes, is an honor. Racing Koa canoes is an experience many paddlers never get to have, heck some folks never even get to race at States.
Does it make sense or is it weird? I don't think so, no matter what Moku you paddle in, the races are always mixed up.
#19 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:47pm
Aloha manakai, right on! I suck at paddling too so I no care what time I race, I jus happy for race.
#20 Tue, 08/06/2013 - 9:59pm
There will always be a nay sayers and people wanting to do things differently. I'll ask how many of these people volunteer, are officials, go to planning meetings are active to perpetuate positive change into the sport vs. complaining?
As to the day being long....
Come to California, race a Regatta, it might give you a very different love and appreciation of how Hawaii runs regatta's. It certainly did for me! To say regatta's here are poorly attended is an understatement...Sad actually! At the end of the day, you're competing, you're with kids-who are the future of the sport, you're at the beach with friends and family having fun, talking story, BBQ'ing, etc..... Reality is one's perspective and to complain about the day being long I get on one hand and find absolutely ludicrous on the other. Just me!
I wish I was able to be on the beach in Hanalei for state's, in a shitty lane, competing, being with friends, seeing the kids compete, BS'ing with old friends and getting burnt!
Hawaiian Canoe Club.... Congratulations!
Well done on your Championships.
#21 Thu, 08/08/2013 - 5:00am
Two comments
In what time period were they not trying to improve canoe disigns so that canoes performed better? I just want to get an idea of what time period we are deciding is "traditional".
Regattas- Once you finish your particular racing you should be able to drink beer with your Popeyes chicken. My body doesn't recover properly on just chicken alone. A lot of times if I paddle a later race a lot of the chicken is eaten by the women. I know it's the women cause they leave the chicken skin in the box and a lot of meat on the bone. My suggestion would be to have the men race first then the women. Right now the women race first for each titled race then the men go out. This would benefit in two way. 1. less chicken would be wasted 2. There would be enough chicken left for the guys.
As a reward for reading this post I'm going to give you a secret recipe. Use the chicken skin to peel off the leftover chicken the girls leave on the bone. You want to kind of cup the meat in the skin. Then fold it like a doobie. You can dip it in some humus that the women brought (but decided to eat after they filled up on chicken) or put it in a biscuit. It taste better if the women see you dipping and double dipping it in their previously unopend humus.
#22 Thu, 08/08/2013 - 9:50am
Doubling of points for the Senior race is already done - it's called the Sophomore race.
If you increase the points for the Senior race then you have to consider removing the rule which allows them to race in two classified events. The bigger clubs would benefit from this.
I like the idea of rearranging the races to get the premiere events at the end of the day.
#23 Fri, 08/09/2013 - 11:01am