Hi guys,
just a silly question about ama placement and size on various OC2.
Stingray : single size rear seat attached
Rafale and tempest : single size front seat attached
Oracle and many others : double size attached on both seats
Is it really different ? If so, what are the pros and cons, the changes in OC behaviour ?
Submitted by fabrice on Thu, 04/17/2014 - 11:08pm
Economics 101
#1 Thu, 04/17/2014 - 11:14pm
Stingray was quite a short OC2 only 24ft and has lots of rocker so it was a surfing type OC2 and having the AMA mostly at the rear half of the hull aids surferbility. Also means the front Iako doesn't impede the front paddlers reach due to short AMA.
#2 Fri, 04/18/2014 - 5:06pm
it's probably me, but I've never paddled a two man where the iako doesn't get in someone's way. brutal.
#3 Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:07pm
If it wasn't for iakos jc, where would we mount our GoPro's.
#4 Sat, 04/19/2014 - 2:53pm
Used both the Stringray and Tempest for years in all conditions. Personally, I think the Tempest is a better all-around OC2...but the only "issue" I have with it is the iako/ama being forward of seat #2.
In sloppy, rough, conditions when sitting in #2 the canoe would frequently try to "buck" me off the seat and with no rear iako to instinctively reach back for I would really struggle to maintain balance at times.
With iako set up like it is with Stingray, both paddlers can lean back and have a chance at maintaining their balance by using the iako right behind them.
Again...this is really only a potential issue in very sloppy conditions, but it was enough for me to really take notice of and it did affect my paddling in the recent Kanaka Ikaika Oahu Championships in March.
Bottom line though. I still prefer the Tempest. I'd still pick it 10 times out of 10 times and "deal" with my balance issue in the slop...or I'll move to #1 if weight distribution works out with respect to the person I'm paddling with.
As for smacking iako with paddle. Yep...I'm 6 ft tall...it happens mostly when going for bumps and getting a little too nuts, but I still believe it is workable for all but the tallest of paddlers. They might have to really adjust their stroke.
#5 Mon, 04/21/2014 - 9:15am
so except for the "reach back" feature, there is no actual difference ?
#6 Tue, 04/22/2014 - 3:57am
A number of years ago at the Sacramento IVF World Sprints they had a "V2" division, more exhibition than anything else. All the canoe that were usesd were made by Huki, some with long amas with both paddlers between them and some short with one paddler between iako, don't recall if it were front or rear. Rudders were removed. What I do recall clearly was that every single heat race was won with a canoe with a long ama and both paddlers between the iako. The canoes seamed to track better a require less correction. The short ama canoe were all over the place, drag leg and all. Interesting observation.
Tiger
#7 Tue, 04/22/2014 - 6:32am
Aloha Fabrice,
I wish I could say with confidence (e.g. results of time trial testing in various conditions) if the different placement of the iako/ama on various OC2 models makes a difference. But I have never taken it that far. My paddling partner and I took the lazy way out and relied on past experience with other OC2's (again, mostly the Stingray), and felt that the best canoe for us at the moment is the Tempest.
I know one clear observation we agreed on quickly was the Tempest seemed to "carry" over to the next bump/wave in front of us with less paddling effort. Maybe the presence of the ama more forward allows the Tempest to gain traction on the bump we are trying to push up to? Maybe the Tempest hull is simply more efficient and better suited to our weight distribution to allow for more "carry through"? Maybe both? All I know is when we push hard for the next little bump to connect with, we are much more controlled and we simply get a better return on our efforts. I give all the credit to the canoe in those situations.
Observation #2, the steering seemed more responsive in the surf. Again...maybe the ama forward allows less drag in the rear which enables the canoes rudder to have a quicker influence on course correction? I really am just offering observations and "possible" reasons why based on experience.
After reading this it seems like I'm a Tempest fanboy...haha. But honestly, I've known both builders for years and can't say enough good things about them and how much they have helped to push the OC world forward.
Please know...my buddy and I focus on paddling the OC2 in bumps/surf/open ocean channels. So our bias is looking for a great surfing canoe, that at least holds it's own in the flat water. For us, the Tempest meets that requirement, and more, despite my issue with not having a rear iako in seat #2 to help my balance in those rare cases when it is super windy/sloppy/shifty conditions.
Bottom line, like so many things in our sport, it is rarely one single element that is the make or break difference between canoes/paddles/strokes, etc. So many variables to consider in each OC design. Length of canoe, location of rudder relative to the rear of the hull, hull design, deck design, placement of seats (centered or more spread out), ama design/volume, ama/iako location, flexibility in rigging the canoe for different conditions, etc.
With a "perfect" canoe these elements complement each other in all known conditions and types of paddlers. But usually, these elements are designed with a bias towards surfing, flat water, bigger/taller/shorter/lighter people, etc. OC2 options are significantly less than those for OC1. It's a small market by comparison to OC1. Hopefully as the OC2 designs continue to evolve and mature we will begin to see what iako/ama configuration rises to the top.
#8 Tue, 04/22/2014 - 9:11am
Fabrice > so except for the "reach back" feature, there is no actual difference ?
6 Tue, 04/22/2014 - 11:57pm
That would depend on the configuration and design of the AMA and the conditions in which it was used as Tiger said above.
Here's two descriptions of two completely different OC2 designs ( water conditions) including Ama types taken from their respective websites.
Tiger Mahoe - Mahoe (Ma•hoy) hawaiian for twin. The Mahoe hull was taken off our original, very popular, OC2 the Tiger II, retaining the original long water line for maximum speed in the flat to light conditions. We gave the deck some more volume and an updated look. With the additional volume the canoe performs better than it's predecessor in the moderate surfing conditions. The seating area was improved with sliding, comfortable, adjustable seats and each cockpit having it's own personal water bottle holder.
Outrigger Connection Stingray OC2 - The extra attention was paid to the cockpit configuration, paddlers should be positioned as close as possible for better pivoting point in the waves. The seats were redesigned for better comfort, and the new sliding mechanism was added for easy and fast seat position adjustment. The positions of iakos was challenging in order to accommodate the new paddlers position and still keep only the back paddler inside of the iakos. When this problem was solved, new redesigned and more buoyant ama was completed and the entire rig was rigorously tested in all possible conditions.
#9 Tue, 04/22/2014 - 12:44pm
Thank you all for your experience sharing.
Well I was curious about an underliying theory on that matter, but I guess it always comes to the same conclusion : You have to give it a try and see what fits your goals and suits your feelings !
#10 Wed, 04/23/2014 - 2:42am