I do not have a va'a, but have been paddling my hurricane without a rudder for a few months now. I find myself very comfortable going into the wind and swell, however I still struggle to control the va'a when the wind and swell are to either side or directly behind me. I feel my control has improved much, yet know I still have much more to learn. I've not yet mastered reading the conditions and pre-empting them before they "take" the canoe.
My question is: For high level V1 practitioners, on average are you able to maintain a higher overall speed going downwind or upwind? I am wondering if the ability to harness the conditions overcomes the reduced emphasis on propulsion for stroke vs. control (steering)?
The linked video really makes me think you should still be able to go faster downwind (just as on an OC1) - but I ask because I struggle, I don't, and am looking for an out.
Any input is appreciated. Thank you.
Submitted by haggan on Mon, 12/01/2014 - 1:04am
Sick video too.
#1 Mon, 12/01/2014 - 1:08am
wow, he's smooth.
#2 Mon, 12/01/2014 - 10:39am
Impressive. Like the move where he takes his feet out, catches a wave, then bails his hull out while on a nice runner. Re: the OP, my opinion is Yes, the v1 can be fastest downwind. Feels to me, without rudder drag, you get into swell easier & more often.
Also easier to spin out. Amazing what those guys in the Aito can do...
#3 Mon, 12/01/2014 - 10:58am
to answer your question.
i'm junk in a V1 but i'm always faster downwind than up.
for me an OC1 with a rudder will be faster than a V1 on a good downwind surfing run.
if i were to take a guess i'd bet that a large part of your problem is using an OC1 without a rudder. the hull shape of a V1 is drastically different than an OC1 to account for it's lack of rudder. pretty sure any OC1 without a rudder, even the hurricane, will be squirrelly as hell.
#4 Mon, 12/01/2014 - 2:03pm
Thanks for the input all! I tend to agree.
But by extension, do you think Steeve, Rete, Manutea, etc... would have placed even faster in the Solo had they raced in va'a?
Interesting to consider.
#5 Tue, 12/09/2014 - 5:44pm
OOOO this could turn into a fun thread.
In my opinion, with the given conditions of the Solo, it could have been a toss up.
In any crossed wind/surf I feel that they would have been a bit further back.
Organized surf in the 2-3ft range directly behind maybe they could be competitive. However I dont think they would have won. Rudder Ninjas like Manny, Kai, or Kaihe would have smashed.
Light headwinds = minimal rudder advantage
Flat + Boat Wake = Possible rudder advantage for everyone else. (only because Rete, Steve, and 99.9% of Tahitians have perfected the art of surfing a V-1 on boat wake.)
I heard a few people say that the loss of drag from no rudder would be a big advantage..... I think that is BS in 90% of conditions.
Happy Holidays
#6 Tue, 12/09/2014 - 6:18pm
Looking at the flat water today, I would assume, the V-1 would not have any advantage over the OC-1. On a windy day, yes, the V-1, going downwind, has the advantage because it is designed to track straight. So try sticking a small fixed skeg or fin on the hull, beneath the cockpit and see how it goes. It should help you track straighter or at least when you put the rudder back on, you won't break away coming down a large wave.
#7 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 11:58am
interesting potential to this discussion.
I'd be curious, kauaisurf85, why you feel ideal conditions (organized & downhill) would cause the rudder to be such a difference maker. If the top Tahitian v1 paddlers can both surf and keep straight fairly effortlessly, what is it that would hold them back? Do you feel they would catch less waves or get shorter rides than their ruddered counterparts or is it more about navigating a straight line in between waves over all those miles?
In my opinion, at the highest level of the sport the v1 will be faster in anything other than strong cross-winds. For the rest of us, yeah, I'm sure the rudder helps. But guys like Rete Ebb and Steevie boy-- my theory is they've surpassed that learning curve and would still smoke a field of top oc1 paddlers on their preferred craft, the v1.
#8 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 1:00pm
Salty Dog, you hit on something. going "straight fairly effortlessly". although the great paddlers may make surfing a V1 look easy, it's nothing if not harder. for me personally in a V1 there is a direct correlation of HR to speed. no matter what the conditions, if i wanted to surf faster i had to work a ton more. here's my limited experience. i paddled a V1 non stop for a year in all conditions. in order to go fast down wind i had to work hard, no exceptions. while surfing a V1 HR would vary between 160 to 185 BPM, depending on how much i was trying to chase bumps and make connections.
during that same time frame i would jump on my wife's Pueo maybe once a month or less. when i got on that canoe it was amazingly easy to surf, almost boring. when a rudder is controlling the canoe for you all the time it literally feels like you're spending more time resting than paddling . with a rudder 100% of the force you apply to paddle is used for forward motion. in contrast, every stroke you take in a V1 uses a certain amount of your energy to maintain control or it takes you off your desired line. on an OC1 my HR would vary from 140 to 165 BPM while surfing and i would be on the order of minutes faster than a V1 on the exact same course.
the supposedly crippling rudder drag that everyone talks about is probably a lot less than people assume. secondly, whatever drag it does incur, is no doubt offset by the fact that you have to spend no energy at all controlling your canoe. everything you put into your stroke makes you go forward.
in side winds it's even more noticeable as the rudder can constantly compensate for the wind pushing your hull. in confused seas or sloppy water like the east coast of O‘ahu a ruddered boat is untouchable. you can compensate instantly for waves and wind from any direction while also steering yourself into connections that would otherwise be impossible without a rudder.
#9 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 1:26pm
@Salty dog, I am a huge V-1 Advocate, but my theory is that no matter how good you are on a V-1 you will never have the freedom to open your surf options as you would with a Rudder. Although I would be soooo very happy if my theory was blown to bits in the next Perfect conditioned Solo.
Even if the Surf is straight and organized behind you, it doesnt mean that the fastest route is straight. You will still be jumping waves and pressing your peddle to get around the big speed bumps...which is where the OC-1 would pull the advantage.
@Koacanoe Just curious do you beat your fast friends on an OC-1 in surf runs? If yes i think that would probably make you one of the fastest V-1 paddlers in Hawaii, or the USA. And I would like to be your number 1 fan. Be at the next RATH
#10 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 2:28pm
You're on kauaisurf85, I'll even show up in my old faithful rudderless "Lagoon Boat," which predates all these state of the art rudderless V-1's: http://www.vimeo.com/112182956
Yeah! Back in the 80's, way before the rudder-ed OC-1, Kauai paddlers would out paddle everyone rudderless in the Steinlager Sprints on the Ala Wai.
#11 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 7:59pm
@Koacanoe So does that mean you are faster than your fast OC-1 friends on Downwind runs?
Will you be at RATH to race or just to show off the V-1 Fossil model?
#12 Wed, 12/10/2014 - 9:51pm
kauaisurf85: no way, I'm the slowest rudder-ed or rudderless paddler out there. Maybe, if the tide is low and the water is shallow in the Cabbage Patch, I get chance against the OC-1? I always try for race RATH, but I chicken out because no more slow friends.
#13 Thu, 12/11/2014 - 4:48am
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone here for their input - it has really allowed me to think through some things. First - I wanted to say that although I've had some struggles controlling the canoe without the rudder, it has been an absolute pleasure. It truly feels as though I am learning to paddle all over again. Much like the first time I got on an OC1 after having paddled six for so long. I believe I remember reading an article from Luke, where he stated something to the effect that the V1 forces you to pay attention to the water directly in front of you. He articulated it much more effectively than that of course. But to me - the gist of it is that - it forces you to stay "present". I can relate and love the challenge and learning opportunities it has created. You certainly become more aware of the water and it's influence on you; again much like when I first got on an OC1.
That being said I've recently been able to balance out my downwind vs upwind times and or actually beat them.
Anyone know if they (Steeve, Rete, Manutea, etc...) have plans to return next year and do the race in a V1?
#14 Mon, 12/15/2014 - 4:51pm
if you're paddling a rudderless hurricane proficiently, you'll kill it when you get on a V1!
kudos for putting in the time.
#15 Tue, 12/16/2014 - 9:42pm