What's the correlation...

This question has been nagging at me all season: what is the correlation between speed in an OC1 and power in the OC6?

We have a two or three paddlers who consistently come in slow in our time trials in the OC1's. However they insist that they pull more water when in an OC6.

So, what gives? Can it be true that someone slow in an OC1 (not a rookie, though) can be a big gun in an OC6?

Submitted by ho'okele on Thu, 07/03/2014 - 1:45pm



Are they heavier guys ? Most Oc'1's are engineered for up to a 185 pound paddler. You could actually sit a 150 pound paddler and a 210 paddler on the same make of canoe, point them downwind with neither of them paddling and within a short while the 150 pound guy will be a few canoe lengths ahead,. The more the canoe is weighted, the deeper in the water it sits and the more resistance it creates...heavier paddlers will have to work that much harder on an OC1 to overcome that resistance disadvantage.

Probably the best thing is to have time trials that will also include tractor pulls to even things up. Then after that it is timing the canoe with different paddlers in different seats and of course the coach's opinion can trump everything. At least having some objective criteria to seat paddlers will avoid some of the paddletics that create a lot of huhu.


#1 Thu, 07/03/2014 - 3:41pm


poidog, yeah, it makes sense about the greater resistance in the OC1 paddled by a heavier paddler but, if fit, wouldn't he or she also have more muscle to power their canoe thus cancelling out the resistance caused by their greater body weight?


#2 Fri, 07/04/2014 - 4:17am


You're right the lighter paddler will have an advantage downwind (or down current), but I think a heavier paddler holds a corresponding advantage upwind (or up-current). Doesn't the extra mass give the boat/paddler combo more inertia that prevents the boat glide or momentum from slowing as quickly when mother nature's energy is in opposition? How either scenario translates to a time trial that is likely held on flat water I don't know, but it would seem that there are advantages and disadvantages for both heavier and lighter athletes that might cancel each other out.

One factor may be time spent in one man vs six man. if there is a situation where two athletes have put in similar training hours, but one has had more time in a 6 and one has spent more time in an oc1, it's possible there is a comfort level/skill differential in play. Not sure how realistic a scenario that though as usually the paddler getting more time in a single is simply training more which often = faster.

One sure way to know: use seat pulls instead of time trials.


#3 Fri, 07/04/2014 - 9:44am


cwo, you make some good points; I was also thinking that lightweights vs heavier muscular paddlers may cancel out advantages and disadvantages depending the type of oc1 and water conditions.
I understand the concept of tractor pulls though I have't seen them done but I'm not sure about seat pulls. How does a paddler do a seat pull?


#4 Fri, 07/04/2014 - 12:13pm


All things considered..equal fitness, equal experience with proper technique a paddler who is heavier will hang or even beat out a lighter paddler up wind due to inertia and mass,. But the advantage will be incremental. Once they turn downwind all the gains that the heavier paddler might have had will be soon be overcome by the hydrodynamics that the lighter paddler has due to less resistance through the water and who will experience more glide with every stroke and if there are swells to ride...will get a few more yards with every bump.. Look at the size of the guys that consistently are in the top five in the OC1 races. I know there are exceptions like Manny K. ( I do not know how much he weighs but I know how hard he trains and his strength to weight ratio makes him always competitive). but do a tractor pull...with the same two guys mentioned above...good chance the big guy will rule.


#5 Fri, 07/04/2014 - 5:30pm


There are two sure things when it comes to that question. 1) if you can't move a one man, you can't move a six man. 2) just because you can move a one man, it doesn't mean you can move a six man.


#6 Mon, 07/14/2014 - 4:03pm


There are 2 suspects in the 60's Blues Bros. crew who either do not paddle ski or oc1. Without them our boat we would be lacking. Remember coach, "look in their eyes". Looking in the eyes of these two older "Boomski's" is beyond scary. Just a rookie's two cents. xox, kgb


#7 Mon, 07/14/2014 - 7:39pm


6-man vs 1-man, a fascinating subject. Certainly your body position is different and you are lower to the water (in a 1-man). If you lack flexibility, you may have issues maintaining good posture. If you lack core balance, you may have trouble paddling on the right (flip the boat) or the left (make the ama dig in).

If you are a good 6-man paddler, I agree you should be a good 1-man paddler. If you are a not so good 6-man paddler, you might be a slower 1-man paddler. However, I'd rather have the slower paddler who can blend well with the rest of the crew than the faster padder who is always out of sync.

oc_ken - a not so good 6-man paddler


#8 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 6:36am


There are a lot of oc-6 paddlers who are awesome paddlers, win races, etc. but do not go fast in oc-1, for oc-6, tractor pull tells the story.


#9 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 8:48am


Smonahan- coaches the most dominant program in Hawaii right now for women and men. We always look at what Tahitians are doing but why don't we look at what his program is doing. A woman's nov b and nov a program that has won more state championship medals over the last ten year than any other program. These are all brand new paddler all on equal starting level. At one point they won like 8 in a row (maybe more). Does anyone think that is luck! Almost all his paddlers are haole people that just moved to Hawaii, meaning no water experience before they move here in their mid 20's. None of his girls have been local girls (lately we've had a few), top one-man local girls don't go to his program they bounce around to other program so they can lose and get further behind. My point is talent isn't flocking to him (like they should) and he still crushes the other women's programs. Each year in Molo Beachgirls get further and further ahead of club teams, the only team that can beat them is a group of girls that pick the best paddlers from all the clubs. Beachgirls win Fr, So, Jr, Sr races at states each of the last two years. WTF! How many years to they need to win the Sr race consecutively to have people look his way to see what HE is doing that is so successful. Instead of recruiting (him as coach) clubs choose free coaches that don't produce better results than they should and embarrass themselves. A coach should make a team better than what their talent allows them to be, Smonahan does that and year end and year out.

Why doesn't Hawaii start to follow someone with a proven track record of making his team better than the talent he has or lack thereof. Most people I talk with can't articulate what it is that actually makes a canoe go fast and then how to make it go faster than that. They just spout unproven or undefined nonsense like "Watertime", "homework", "explode", "experience", "feel the water", "gotta blend", "feel da power",. I've yet to talk to a single paddler from any other club that can articulate what their stroke is and does and why they do any of it. Ask Sean and he can articulate it and show reasoning, and proven logic, behind the things they do whether it be stoke work, blending work, steering work, and how/why people make 1st crew on down.

I know he coaches women and women winning doesn't get nearly the respect of men winning. There is no men's club program that has any plan of winning besides recruit the best paddlers. That's all they know how to do. How bout a program that recruits a coach (a real coach and proven coach that can articulate how to make a canoe go fast and can articulate a technique and can teach a technique). Now give that guy some talent!! A talented program without a solid coach is Outrigger & Hui Nalu last year. A ok-talented program with a coach is Beachgirls every year, dominating year end and year out.

I just trying to make Hawaii paddling take some direction that makes sense. Something we can build on to eventually be top dogs again.

I'm going to add in here the significance of having local talent instead of haoles. The locals really do have a better knowledge and feel for things all things water. Haoles just don't get it. Simple things like taking canoes out of the water they just don't get how to not screw up the canoes. I see our neighbors taking canoes in and out of the water with half the guys/girls with ease. Our club, made of mostly whitey's, tripping over each, getting pushed in by the ama, turning around while the boat slides into the Ala wai with no person in it. We can have at least 12 guys on a canoe to take it out, 10 of the guys will be in the front of canoe to leave two guys in the back of the canoe to lift by themselves.

Dbag of the year hea b!^h# 5, and while I hold the bag - listen up.


#10 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 11:14am


I'm liking it Pastor Javier! Preach on!


#11 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 12:44pm


That's why them old coaches use to ban the paddling of OC-1s 20 years ago, because it screwed up your 6 man stroke. And if they knew you paddled surfski, they always yelled at you to stop using your kayak stroke in the canoe. But they no say nothing about the paddleboard stroke back then. Today, the SUP paddler can really move both the OC-6 and OC-1 very well.


#12 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 5:23pm


Healthyearth, great points on the underrated coaching talents of Sean. You lost me at the end with your anti-haole nonsense. Are Karel Jr., Jimmy Austin, Travis Grant et al, clueless haoles? Walter Guild, Marc Haine, Mark Rigg, Tommy Conner, Foti Bros could carry boats, and paddle them reasonably well despite their pigmentation deficiencies. Kudos for being self-aware enough to acknowledge that you're a d-bag.


#13 Tue, 07/15/2014 - 6:21pm


This is a great topic and is very relevant to all competitive paddlers. In my opinion, I agree with smonahan 's comment but will add that most (not all) fast 1man paddlers can paddle a 6man very well. There is also history and proof in successful results in Hawaii paddling to support this. Team Primo has been Hawaii's most successful Mens crew over the last 5-6 years. This crew is primarily made up of Maui's fastest 1man paddlers and a few non-Maui guys that are elite 1man paddlers. Guys like D. Ching, Austin, Will, Kaihe have raced with Team Primo. Why were they asked to paddle with Primo? They have proven themselves on a 1man and rightfully deserved to be on that crew.
On the women's side 'healthyearth' inadvertently made an argument that contradicts his point about the women's Beachboys program. He says "Each year in Molo Beachgirls get further and further ahead of club teams, the only team that can beat them is a group of girls that pick the best paddlers from all the clubs" Guess who Team Bradley consists of? Again, a handpicked group of very talented 1man paddlers.
The 1man has become a very valuable tool in training and making paddlers better in a 6man. You would be hard-pressed to find top level 1man paddlers (male and female) that are NOT successful in a 6man. I believe there is too much evidence that supports this argument.


#14 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 8:21am


Picking the solid one-manners is a no-brainer. As stated in the above example, Danny, Jimmy, Will, Kaihe... duh, they're in. The idea behind this thread though is how do you differentiate between the paddlers who are #6 or #7 on the roster.
If you're winning the Solo I don't think that the coach is doubting your ability to move a six-man, or having trouble trying to pick between you and someone else for first crew.


#15 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 8:51am


The simple answer is a 1man time trial. This is objective and puts the onus on the paddlers themselves. There is no subjective decision to be made. I believe 9 out of 10 times you will get the right paddlers for your crew based on the results. Can you think of a more "fair" way that will get the crew the better results?


#16 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 9:01am


Line up the 20 girls from both teams in one man races and you won't see a royal blue (Beachgirl color) ass whoopin, you'll Bradley girls whoopin. Line them up in 6 man canoes and you'll see an actual race that's close.

I believe what Sean says is mostly true, but for me, there is enough room for error in both those statement that you still need to do seat races. (If you believe in such a measure). If you have a lot of guys in your club you probably will have to use some type of one man time trial to see who gets to seat race. Top 15 one man time trials and/or if you are within 5% of the avg of the top 10 then you seat race. Something along those lines seems efficient. If you 20% slower that the top avg on the one man it's 100% chance you won't win in seat race no matter how well you blend. All this is flat water one manning I'm talking about.

Here's what will happen if hookele seat races them. 1. they will lose 2. they will say "well I'm an open ocean race, race me in open ocean. 3. They will lose then again. 4. They will say well when it's race time I step it up. 5. If you keep them in the canoe you'll eventually be losing to second crew or the crew members who were actually better them then and decided to go to another club where they will be given a chance. 6. They will quit, I promise. After their hallucinogenics wears off from seat racing they will never come back. I seen it too many times. When the imaginary awesome ability one thinks they have disappears then they quit.

I like it when someone loses their seat because that means someone deserving actually is in it now.


#17 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 9:23am


bigjed: Some of the paddlers you mention maybe get Hawaiian blood? So no can go by "pigmentation."


#18 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 9:41am


Good points and good thread.

I think theres alot to be gained from the topic at hand. Healthyearth save yourself some drama, your haole rant isnt necessary.

I agree with some of the points that healthy makes about brining up a club without OC 1 champs, and that a club with very very very dedicated paddlers will eventually get to the top.

It takes a dedicated coach, program, and pool of paddlers to achieve greatness in the Va'a world.

However, in the current format, and popularity of Paddling (outside Tahiti) I feel that the rest of the world NEEDs the OC-1 and V-1 to speed up our learning curve.

Take a perfect physical Novice B guy give him a decent stroke, and timing he will be able to contribute to a 6man until taken into the open ocean.

Now take the same guy and put him on a OC1/V1 for a little training in the surf.... "boom" blowing his mind at the potential of using the ocean to his advantage.

Now put him back in the 6man with the same decent stroke, and decent timing "boom" Novice A or 2nd crew candidate.

The point Im trying to make is that here in the US/Hawaii unfortunately alot of people dont even know what surf surf is. It is the guys and gals that get out on a OC1/V1 to learn that simple concept that will keep contributing to their clubs and crews.

Also the guys and gals getting out on their OC1/V1 on non 6man practice days shows a level of dedication that helps in their consideration to be included on a 6man crew.

Now for my last point.
Since a 6man has no rudder, we are always relying on a single steers man that will either make or break a crew, its our crutch our vice, or weakness. Without a skilled steersman most crews are reduced to average right off the bat. So I will venture to say that if more people trained on V-1 we would have much more skilled guys/gals to steer us around without dragging a paddle in the water all the time.

Aloha


#19 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:10am


I love the fact that healthyearth is very passionate about the Waikiki Beachboys Womens program. They are very talented and have achieved a lot over the last decade as he mentions. He makes a point that these are not elite 1man paddlers, but a group of strong paddlers coached by Sean who brings out their best year in and year out. This is true.
However, the fact remains that Team Bradley women have won 8 of the last Na Wahine O Ke Kai races, while Beach Boys have won 1 since 2005. Again, Team Bradley is comprised of predominately elite 1man female paddlers. Furthermore, Team Bradley women do NOT race regattas, because they are not a "club". So they do not compete against Beachboys every Summer so we are unable to evaluate these two against each other.
In regards to seat racing...it is still a good measurement for picking crews, but has it's flaws. There are 5 other paddlers in a crew everytime you seat race. Those 5 other paddlers can greatly affect the outcome of the race. This is a huge variable. Again, a 1man time trial eliminates this variable.


#20 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:10am


Awesome thread.

The problem that we all deal with is that there is no completely objective way to choose the fastest six paddlers for a crew.

To attempt an answer to the original question (from my relatively limited experience as a coach):

In flat water, the only reason that someone should be able to move a six man canoe better than they can an OC-1 is because they're heavier. If you're 240 pounds in an OC-1 then your body weight is 92% of the total weight you're pulling. If you're 240 pounds in an OC-6 with 5 other 200 pound guys, then your body weight is 15% of what you're pulling (divided by six guys). Weight in an OC-1 makes a much bigger difference than weight in an OC-6.

So, if you're under 220 pounds and you can't move an OC-1 in the flat (and you have enough experience to have decent balance so you can have an effective stroke on both sides), then I don't think there's much chance that you're going to be effective in an OC-6.

As far as what was said above about weight being an advantage upwind-- I don't think that's true. While you do have more momentum, every stroke takes that much more energy to accelerate the canoe (Newton's Second Law). You're pulling more weight and the extra displacement makes the canoe less efficient.

If everyone trying out weighs under 220 pounds, then I think that the OC-1 is the closest we can get to an objective measure of OC-6 performance. But, it should still be used in conjunction with other performance measures and subjective measures (attitude, experience, etc).

While I know that this wasn't asked originally, it did come up after. The other two performance measures (that I know of) are:

1) Tractor pulls/One man pulls (one steersmen not paddling with one paddler)
While it can be fun to do, I think it's probably the worst measure of OC-6 performance. Your stroke to move your body weight plus 600 more pounds (steersmen, canoe, rigging) is very different then the high speed stroke required to move an OC-6 with five other guys. This rewards people with very long strokes (all the way forward, all the way out the back), which isn't going to be effective when the canoe is moving at higher speeds.

2) Seat races (racing two similarly paced crews, then switching out two guys from the same seat)
I think that this should be used in conjunction with OC-1 time trials. As it is a direct marker of performance in an OC-6. The downsides are that there are so many variables between two sprints:
a) If either steersmen is inexperienced, then one extra swerve between trials will mess it up.
b) You are relying on 10 other paddlers to put out the same effort between sprints. If you're sprinting all out, there is always going to be a subconscious (or even conscious) effort to go harder for someone that you want to win the seat race.
For those two reasons, I try to repeatedly do seat races to see if there is a consistent difference between two paddlers. Over a 500 M sprint, I only really take into account differences of more than 5 seconds.

I once read that among elite marathoners, placing in a 3 mile time trial is an extremely accurate predictor of placing in a marathon. Meaning that the order in which guys finished the 3 mile TT is very close to the order they finish in a marathon. Meaning that time trials don't need to be any longer than 3 miles.


#21 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:15am


So who you going to take in first crew?
Lil O'Boi Luke who always wins his seat race against the reining DB of the year
Or you going to take reining DBOTY who beats hims in a one man always?

I'm taking Lil O'Boi Luke, not just because he takes up less room on the escort boat. I'm taking him cause that 6 man goes faster with him in it.

Usually I can tell why that one man paddler isn't moving the 6 man as good as his one man performance reflects.
The problem is being a good one manner makes you think you know it all and makes you more reluctant to change.......sometimes, not always. So Ref above where I talk about being able to articulate a stroke and understand what you doing an dwhy you doing it. I know of no team that has been taught what their stroke is and what different parts do. So if they haven't been taught that then I'm sure their coach doesn't know and I'm then sure they can't fix that awesome one manner. Sean can. That's just one reason why Beachgirls dominate every woman's program from top to bottom. There's no close second, actually second keeps getting further back.

Sean been bldg a team from scratch. So of course they not going to win in the beginning. Each year they get better and better, they were getting closer to first place until they won it. Now it's close battle and no guarantee. ALl those nov b's that won are now in first crew and have experience. So put those 8-1 in perspective. This year they win guaranteed. Match up Hui Nalu girls on one mans against Beachgirls, Beachgirls still get beat. Hui Nalu girls have no chance against Beachgirls in a 6 man.


#22 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:56am


A similar debate rages in the rowing community about how to put together the fastest crew -- without the ability to time trial in a single. In rowing, strength can be directly measured through erg times (which don't account for the enormous value of better technique.) The question for erg times is then, what sort of weight adjustment should be made? To answer that question, ConceptII has a weight adjustment calculator on its site that estimates the speed difference between rowers of different weights.

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/calculators/weight-adjust...

The difference in speed (for this calculator) between a 250 lb person and a 180 lb person is about 7.5%. This adjustment is supposed to be tailored to the speed of an 8-man shell which is pretty equivalent in weight to an OC-6. Playing with the calculator should give a reasonable idea of the hydrodynamic weight penalty for the big guys.


#23 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:50am


I responded to another thread from Ho'okele on pretty much the same topic.
Like Luke writes there is very little totally objective data in outrigger crew selection.
And the only thing tractor pulls prove is that they are a great way of selecting a paddler for tractor pull racing !
Yipee.
0C6 crew selection still comes down to a number of criteria that MUST be considered together.
0C1 Time Trial - enough has been said on this
Experiance - no brainer
Blend - sometimes a combo works when it should'nt on paper
Race results - it is the harshest test after all
Attitude - rather paddle with a chilled dude then a raging nut job
Seat position - right paddler for the right seat , no 250lb gorilla in 1


#24 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 11:19am


if there is drama with the decisions that the coach is making i've always found that posting rankings for everyone to see pretty much squashes all debate.

assign a value to everything like Time Trial, tractor pull, and six man technique etc. give everyone say a score of 1 to 5 with 1 being the best or top 10% at the club…something like that on down to 5 for the needs improvement. as a coach you can decide to add extra weight to each criteria as well if you like. if you value six man and one man time trial the most then you can multiply those scores by three or four if you want to create more separation in your rankings. plug it all into excel and you've can rank everyone from lowest (best score) to highest. then there are no arguments, no debate, and no questions. in my experience paddlers, once they know where they stand, are left with nothing to argue about. in the 15 years or so i used this system it effectively squashed 99% of the crew choice debates. when using these rankings there were very very rarely paddlers who functioned either above or below their ranking, meaning everyone just sorts themselves out.

to concur with Luke on the effectiveness of a 3 mile TT. take a look around or take note of the crew rankings at the 30 minute mark of the Moloka‘i Hoe, the Solo, or Hawaiki Nui. almost all the paddlers finish within a place or two if not stay in the exact same place all the way to the finish. there are a few changes due to course mistakes, injury, illness, or dropping out. maybe a place or two change at most. but by and large the argument that one gets stronger during a 5 hour race or will paddle better than the others in their crew later in the race is a farce.


#25 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 4:41pm


Well thank you healthy for the praise, he is not on my payroll. While there are many good points on here, I would stand by previous statement. Everyone who has paddled on a very good crew selected solely by one man time trials knows there will be a paddler or two that throw the crew off, poor power application. The time trial will eliminate slow paddlers, but may let in a bad paddler. Seat racing is not perfect, as stated above, but it is the best way to see who is moving a canoe. You must limit the variables, steersman don't paddle, just poke, more than one switch in the canoe and it is void, watch closely! This last statement is most important. If I see someone who I think is slacking, they are seat raced next. They will loose if they were. Problem solved, because if someone in my boat does not want to race with the fastest crew, I do not need them. I see my job as a coach is to make every paddler the best they can be, determine which canoes they belong in through merrit, then get them to blend better and therefore go faster.
Peace


#26 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 9:07pm


Smonahan, Your success over many years speaks for itself. You are a master at putting crews together and we all admire what you have accomplished. Thank you for sharing your ideas and methods with us. Luke, keep posting. You are a wonderful and inspiring student of the game. Thank you for speaking up about tractor pulls. Maybe to assess for a 1/4 mile race if you are a 200 pound young man. Please not ever in a 400 lb canoe with a 180 lb steerer for kids, novice or older masters. Use a 2 man on a straight course with the same (light) steerer if you must have a number to support your instincts. This is a great thread which addresses the art of coaching canoe paddling. I wish Tommy C. was here to comment.


#27 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 10:54pm


All great points. results from Bradley and Primo also say something don't they.
I never had a 1man and would miss out on the team due to not doing well in 1man trials. Fact is. if you want to win a 1man trial you have to practise on a 1man. I always said I was better in the 6man. as soon as I got my own 1man. I trained on it and then proved myself. If team trials are on 1man. then you better get on one and train.


#28 Wed, 07/16/2014 - 11:04pm


One comment I often got as coach when I included one man trials in the decisions regarding crew placement was:
"That's not fair...they have a one man and train on it all the time and I don't." I always found it ironic that these paddlers were complaining that it wasn't fair because, in essence, their "competition" for a seat was doing more work and training harder than them.


#29 Thu, 07/17/2014 - 5:03am


Great thread, mahalo ho'okele for starting it... think we can all agree that in theory a solid OC-1 paddler might not do well in a 6-man due to lack of ability to blend, overconfidence, or whatever. But would be interested to know how often smonahan, luke, or any other coach has actually seen this, and been unable to easily correct it. Also whether they encourage or discourage new paddlers from getting a 1-man (think I can guess the answer). Point has already been made about Primo and Bradley... meanwhile healthy overstates his case and makes it sound like beachgirls first crew were last year's novice Bs coached up to perfection without ever seeing a 1-man...

Event 29: Women Senior
1 Waikiki Beach Boys 12:41.14 15
(Rachel Bruntsch, Dana Gorecki, Eko Lapp, Kaui Pelekane, Jen Polcer, Lindsey Shank)


#30 Fri, 07/18/2014 - 9:51am


Let me be more clear on what I'm saying.

One manning will make you a better paddler and will up your potential for being the fastest in a 6 man. Your best one manners will very likely (80%) be your best 6 manners. Blending and balance are two variable that throw things out of whack. We had guys last year on our 1st crew that couldn't (skinny guys too) stay up-right on a one man but when put in 6 man they won seat races.

I get the sense that this community doesn't really believe a coach can make a team and paddlers better. If one's idea of making crews is to race the guys in a one man the put the fastest in first crew then you really are just managing the team, we should call that person the CDO (Chief Data Officer). A coach does more than that, he makes observation, creates test to test certain ideas, test different ideas, test against assumption, tries to prove assumptions, notices trends or problems in those test, follow up on trends or fixes problems that go against certain hypothesis, tries to reproduce some situations, etc... Then at the end of the day he has the faster 6 or 9 or 10.

Don't forget how many Nov B, Nov A, champioships they have won, I'm going to guess at least 12. That is the most level playing field. Because there's no recruiting the top talent come in with overwhelming force dilute the notoriety and powerful message of quality coaching. Fundamentals are for the talentless, overwhelming talent will usually prevail (Michael Vick) but overwhelming talent combined with solid fundamentals and good coaching dominates, ie Lebron James.

Good coaching (not managing) combined with talent = above expected results. What coach can you name that has gotten more from their talent than Sean has?

My main care is to help put Hawaii paddling in a position to constantly build on and get better. Right now the only game in town is recruit the best paddlers (then MANAGE them to not beat each other up) , well that plan has only gotten the men further and further behind Tahiti. How many more times are the top paddlers going to go to one club based on what other paddlers are going all in hopes of being a super power, then they break up all pissy? How many more times must that philosophy fail to get us closer to Tahiti before we decide we need to add a different element to that so we don't get the same results. In the past 5 years I can name 5 times this exact scenario has happened. Twice everyone went to Lanikai, last year it was Outrigger, then this year its Hui Nalu and Kailua, next year back to Outrigger. How many more team jerserys does one need before you realize your in the same position you were 5 years ago.

Look at how much one man talent Outrigger had last year, they only beat Kailua by 6 min. If I were to make a judgement about how much they would have won by judging one man talent I would have said 20min beating at least.


#31 Fri, 07/18/2014 - 11:32am


Just wondering, which crew would be the fastest in a 6-man: (1) a crew of 6-man paddlers, (2) a crew one-man paddlers or (3) a crew of surfski paddlers? As I recall, quite a few winning Molokai crews consisted of kayakers.


#32 Fri, 07/18/2014 - 12:20pm


Healthy, mahalo for clarifications. Your first two sentences sum up the only point I was trying to make - was not questioning anyone's coaching abilities. No way do beachgirls dominate fresh/soph/junior/senior without killer coaching. And to your point about jumping around, one reason for their dominance is how long they've paddled together, and quality of their deep bench, both tributes to the coach.


#33 Fri, 07/18/2014 - 1:23pm


I'm reading this discussion with keen interest. My head is a bit filled up with all the info but basically I am hearing that being fast in a one person canoe will mean that there's a good chance that you'll be fast in a 6 person crew. Of course, there is blend and balance to consider in the 6 person. But overall it sounds like speed in the one person canoe will attract a coach's attention and a slow one person canoe paddler is going to to have to bring something else convincing to the 6 person boat in order to tempt a coach to place her in the first crew.


#34 Fri, 07/18/2014 - 6:28pm


I have only been doing this sport for 4 years so I don't have all the scientific evidence like others but here is my own experience. I used to define big guns as the strongest guy on the boat, I now define big gun as those who can pull their weight on an OC1 for the length of a race. Example, if your race is 5 miles and you can OC1 for that distance with at least 80% or better intensity. If your big guns can't do that, they are just adding drag to your boat. You can hide on an OC6 but the truth comes out on an OC1. We still have "big guns" on our team that wont OC1 yet they wonder why they literally get lapped at Sprints or do so bad in long distance races. I cant contribute to the thread regarding tractor pulls versus time trails, what I do know is the numbers never lie. I hear that line so much,' I am bad on an OC1 but I am the Powerhouse on the OC6". Bull! While I am sure one of the experts here will correct me for being new and stupid, let me add some more fuel. I also think the whole blending argument is crazy. To me blending is a code word for timing. Every seat in an OC6 has a role. If you have a crew of good OC1 paddlers and you put them in an OC6 , yet no one is following Seat 1, you will have issues. I have seen put together OC6 teams here made up entirely of guys that primarily do OC1. The ones that have done well typically follow the basic logic of when Seat 1 goes into the water and exits the water, so do I. The put together teams I have seen failed didn't fail because they are not strong but because they were all doing their own thing most commonly called not blending! In terms of what it takes to get the coaches attention to put you in a first crew, kick someones butt on the first crew, it will get you noticed by the coaches but you might lose a paddling friend, just saying.


#35 Sun, 07/20/2014 - 12:30pm


Paddling is problem solving at its best, I love the challenge and always learning and eating humble pie. Even when it's hard, there is a lesson to learn in each situation. And just when you think you know something, you realize there's another perspective that also makes sense. I remember the first time I went to Japan, everything was done different than in the US, the roads, houses, food, even the grammar structure of the language is in reverse order. Nice day, it is, yes?

It taught me that there are many perspectives and judgments. It actually made me wonder if there was a right way and a wrong way. I don't think so. Maybe there are many layers of right, some more, some less.

I believe there is a value that performance an oc1 can bring to oc6. Can not a strong cyclist, runner or swimmer also be a strong paddler? Can fitness carry over to any sport? It may be so, but the skills are different. OC6 and OC1 are a lot closer to each other then OC6 and Stand Up. However I know many Stand Up paddlers who suck on a oc1, yet I would welcome on a oc6 crew any day.

Can we agree that OC1 and OC6 are not exactly the same? Each seat in an oc6 are not even the same.
An ability to perform in OC1 does indicate a strong value, so do other variables.

My feedback is to test and measure, but also trust your gut instinct. Its a team sport, its all about we.


#36 Mon, 07/21/2014 - 7:14am


Funny.. just driving by a halau site and saw tractor pulls going on..guess they are still trying to be fair about crew selection for the states. Since they got another week to go maybe will put an OC1 paddle off in the mix. I guess when you are dealing with clubs and you are dealing with coaches who want to get out beyond paddletics....these tests are about as objective as can be expected. . I disagree that all they are doing is finding out who does the best tractor pull...a 1/4 mile tractor pull takes technique...up front press, rapid stroke rate, don't let the canoe settle...what it takes to move a 6 man in a regatta race. I have yet to see a thrasher beat out someone with good technique in a 1/4 mile pull.


#37 Tue, 07/22/2014 - 10:25pm


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