Unlimited Racing

Just wanted to know what people would think of a race where there was no restrictions on boat weight or length or desing in general. It could be a division of an already exisiting race. Could you imagine some of the canoe designs that might be out there if the 6-man races didn't have any restrictions. Just a thought...

Submitted by nekine on Tue, 10/04/2005 - 2:20pm



I'd like to see the 400 lb minimum weight limit decreased in the non-koa canoes. In the twenty years I've been paddling I've seen more people get hurt lifting canoes then actually paddling them.
Of course there are cultural/historical reasons why canoes are they way they are today and people have some really strong feelings about that. But in short, yeah, it would be really interesting to see a fleet of 200 lb (?) OC6 canoes flying around the channel! I'd paddle one for $hits and giggles....


#1 Tue, 10/04/2005 - 3:35pm


Yeah, I know that there are the cultural reasons that the canoes are the way that they are. That is why I think that this should only be a division in a race. But I think that it would be a lot of fun to see what could happen if the only restriction was an ama and that it carry 6 paddlers.


#2 Tue, 10/04/2005 - 5:01pm


similar to Tahiti? are there any restrictions down there? it seems Tahitian hulls are much faster than what we've got over here. not sure about the mass of those things...

i'm sure alot of people would end up racing in the "unlimited" division.


#3 Tue, 10/04/2005 - 7:05pm


Given all the non-koa class racing canoes are already composite designs (although made of fiberglass) I don't see why the weight of the canoe should be set to a minimum of 400lbs. The minimum weight could definitely go down to 200-300lbs. Karel's shop builds a 200lb plus Mirage so construction is not an issue. For Koa class races I definitely understand having a large cultural influence.

Mahalo


#4 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 4:28am


This is such an interestesting topic.
The morphing of technology and manufacturing improvements into OC-1 paddling has created some of the slickest, most fun-to-ride watercraft one can imagine.
I can't wait to see what will be next.

This is just an alternative filter on the subject of the same improvements injected into the OC-6s.

As a race organizer on the East Coast I cannot begin to imagine what a cluster this will be in adding and organizing new classes of kanus along with Male/Female/Mixed/points/ awards/trophies...etc.
The last few years have seen a substantial growth in Outrigger Paddling out here on the right side of the USA. Might this stifle or even halt that growth by putting kanus out of the cost reach of the average new-start team?
Or will it be us against them? The Haves and Have-nots.

What about the kanus that are already out there? What, do they become obsolete training pieces? Maybe a planter or cool, party beer tub?
I love my Kapeka and feel very lucky to be part of her family.
I really don't know the popular feeling on this out West (Cali - Hawai'i). Is there such a glut on kanus that the personal attachment has been replaced by "what's next?"?

Just thinking out loud.
Aloha


#5 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 6:16am


I believe when superlight OC1 hulls first hit the market there was a lot of concern over durability and safety. Now we regulalry see hulls in the low 20 lb range not only crossing the Channel but being used in day to day training as well.

If National / Regional Federations adopted this approach they would have to phase it in over a few years to reduce the have vs. have not perception. If the new "unlimited" class hull limitations were lowered every few years we could see this become a relaity;
[list]2006 400 lbs
2008 350
2010 300
2012 250
2014 200[/list:u]
The rate of "weight loss" would have to reflect the average lifspan of a top OC6 racing hull, otherwise if will become a financial burden to stay up to date.

Right now underweight hulls have to add weight to make the minimum. So, in theory, a crew could order their 200 lb hull tomorrow and attach 200 lbs of weight to the hull to be legal through 2008, then add 150 lbs through 2010, ...

The cultural aspect is tricky to deal with as it is so important to many outrigger paddlers. It is a balance between progress and respect for the traditions, both are necessary otherwise you are "just a sport".

Cycling went through an out of control equipment design phase where the basic shape of the bike was being redefined. The International Cycling Union stepped in and made rule changes to limit new designs adn roll back some World Records as well. At first there was kicking and screaming, but now design progress is still booming only more subtly and directed by the new rules.

As outrigger is still very young in international governance, these things will take time. However, things are slowly looking better for greater international cooperation between outrigger federations.

Alan


#6 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 7:02am


yldbill I agree with you on the issue of "haves vs. have nots" however the same upgrade cycle happened when the OC-6 designs went from the Malia to Force Five to Mirage even with the weight guidelines being intact. Welcome to change. Clubs still use previous designs for training and racing however those at the top end of the sport will always be striving to buy and run current designs for that performance edge. That is the evolution of the sport and as you said in the OC-1 market the pace is furious with builders changing OC-1's, Amas construction/fabrication every year now.

Aloha,

Dan


#7 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 7:16am


Kinda like Alanc said-- paddling is so great because it is much more than just a sport. It has digressed a lot from it's roots-- we cross Moloka'i in a fiberglass hull with 9 guys rotating in and out from an escort boat... and we have a t top on our blade-- but there is still a huge cultural piece to it, and I think that we have to be very careful to preserve that. But does an unlimited class infringe upon the cultural part?
People always say that if the Hawaiians had a fiberglass tree then their canoes would've been fiberglass instead of Koa. I think that they have a good point--- a lot of work went into getting the perfect log and then shaping it to the desirable shape. If one day a guy found a tree.... maybe called the Carbon tree.... that could cut the weight of canoes in half without making them weaker-- then i'm sure nobody would have said anything about the culture not allowing them to advance to using the carbon tree. Did the Hawaiian's also have a rule that said that their canoes had to be under forty five feet? I dont think so.... Outrigger canoeing will always be more than just a sport because of where it came from-- no matter how far the canoe progresses.
I'm not sure about the issue of it being between the haves and the havenots--- like that recent article just said---- paddling is not a cheap sport, and i dont think that any of us want it to get significantly more expensive. I'm not sure how much a 200 pound six man costs (probably A LOT right now because of whatever's happening with the whole carbon fiber shortage thing) but i do not think that it is normally a huge amount more expensive than a normal canoe, and i am sure that it is cheaper than a Koa canoe. Plus, i do not think that there is such thing as a canoe that is too expensive for a club, i think that paddlers have mastered the art of the fundraiser.

I support keeping all the regulations on canoes for regattas-- on Kaua'i we only take out our Koa once a year for States and it's always a powerful feeling to be sitting in that canoe for that one week out of the year. But, i do think that it is time that the rules be adjusted for the distance season-- probably not unlimited yet, but at least no more weight restriction.
Even if we are paddling a state of the art 200 pound canoe i strongly believe that we will all still remember where the outrigger canoe came from and how important it is.


#8 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 9:38pm


I hate agreeing with Luke (we are somewhat related), but I also don't think that by changing the shape of the canoe or the materials used you are going to lose any of the culture. The prerace rituals will not be changed, the fact that you are using human power will not be changed, and most importantly the feeling that you get after doing a long distance race will be the same. As long as it is still an [u]outrigger canoe[/u] it will be the same sport. Just becuase the canoe shape changes doesn't change that it is a team sport with its roots deep in the Hawaiian culture.


#9 Wed, 10/05/2005 - 10:33pm


I concur with Luke. I don’t see a problem with an unlimited class. As long as there remains a traditional design (i.e. the manu), I don’t see a problem. Let’s not forget that the conditions and the log dictated the way the kalai waa built the canoe. In ancient times, the kalai waa didnt have to follow bullshit guidelines/specifications. The kalai wa`a built according to log and the conditions. The specifications (i.e. the waterline requirement) are purely arbitrary and MODERN (see Tommy Holmes, The Hawaiian Canoe). I think boat specifications are oppressive to the “culture.”

As to the weight issue, the 400lb requirement is unnecessary. If some idiot club wants to put out a boat (koa or otherwise) that is too light that it endangers the canoe in the open ocean, that’s their own problem. No seasoned crew is going to enter an open ocean race with a boat that is too light and un-sturdy. Shit, if a modern builder can build a 200lb carbon fibre canoe as sturdy as a 400lb canoe, that’s great.

Lastly, Luke raises an important question, as to racing the Kaiwi channel with a 9-man crew. Here, I think there should be an “ironman” division for the channel. This would definitely separate the men from the boys and be traditional.


#10 Thu, 10/06/2005 - 8:56am


This topic of canoe design and weight is an old one and one that will probably out live all of us. The deisign and weight of the canoe definitely makes a difference in the outcome of a race whether it is a sprint or a long distance race. I have another view point I'd like to throw out there for you to chew on. Isn't the point of racing and competing to see who the best crew and paddlers are? With that in point, wouldn't it make sense to have the exact same design and weight for every canoe in the race? That way it will be the best crew and paddlers that will win fairly given everthing is equal. Sliding off the subject a little here but it's to make a point. In NASCAR racing, the designs are strictly monitored to make sure one team doesn't have an unfair advantage over another team, but within manufacturer deisigns in mind. But more to the point of fairness is the IROC series of racing where every single race car has the exact same specifications. Here you see can see the real talent of the drivers come out and not the design of the car making the difference. This post doesn't have anything to do with what you guys are talking about and I've strayed off the point, but it does have a point of view as to the unlimited design class where anything goes. That's not racing. That's seeing who can buy the best canoe out there, just like the America's Cup where millions are spent to see who can come up with the best and fastest boat and you've seen the controversy that's been created with that scene. The story isn't about who the best crew is, it's always about the boat and how much it costs and the design of it. As competitive paddlers, I would like to think that you want a design of equality where the best man really does win. Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to throw in my two cents worth. I don't want to begin on the cultural part of it because I'm pro Hawaiian design. I hope I didn't offend anyone cause that wasn't my intentions at all. We all have our own opinions and it's good to hear what others have to say. Even if you live on the East Coast of the West Coast, we don't judge you folks. hahaha that was just little jab at you guys for not living in paradise. Aloha kakou malama pono


#11 Fri, 10/07/2005 - 1:29am


That's a good point about it being about the best crew winning. But... i think that for the 95% of us who aren't going for a win when we paddle that it is about having fun. And the faster you go the more fun it is--- But it's a hard question and there is no right answer--- just a lot of varying opinions....


#12 Fri, 10/07/2005 - 9:26am


Well if there does end up being an unlimited class....do you break that into different classes? Like the 300lb. class the 250lb. class. I agree that for competition sake all canoes should be kind of cookie cutter(in the six man divisions anyway).


#13 Fri, 10/07/2005 - 3:01pm


I would think that there would just be one unlimeted class, regardless of what wieght your canoe is. But when I first posted about this topic, I wasn't thinking so much in terms of weight as I was in design. Longer, more rocker, chimes, dimpels, two amas. I was just thinking that right now there is not much incentive to make a canoe any different because nobody can paddle it in a race. But if there was a class that would let any canoe in, the possibilities would be endless for what design ideas could be out there.


#14 Fri, 10/07/2005 - 6:28pm


How about having two different races? I know it would add to the cost factor for just about everyone, but there could be the existing Moloka'i Ho'e using the traditional canoes and one where anything that floats and has an ama can enter. You can have everything from an OC1 to a OC12 enter. Kind of like the Baja in Cali where anything that can be driven can enter. Women could also enter and race along side men both as an all womens crew or as a mixed crew. This way the paddler that wants to race the traditional Moloka'i race in a traditional canoe can also race in the "Anything goes" race as a fun or competitive race. This could also serve as a testing ground for new canoe designs to see how it stacks up against other designs. It's dangerous when the mind gets thinking.


#15 Wed, 10/12/2005 - 11:59am


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