This is a question to all of you and also to the people that organize regattas.
One man regatta season is coming up. I am excited. Hey, Novice B, a new canoe, let's see what is possible. So I look at the regatta schedule full of expectation and find that all except one of the regattas are on Sundays. So I am sad. Why that ?
I love to go to church ! Good music, good news, actually 'the' good news, often a nice meal, splendid fellowship, good talk, some conflicts, yes also that, - its part of my life, its also part of my family/ies life.
So for every race day I have to decide: do I race, or do I favor my family and go to church and watch them having a good time. I know, on some days I will race, on others I will go to church, but the whole thing doesn't feel right to me. And it really seems sad to me.
We often declare the need for respect of the Hawaiian traditions, and I think that is very valuable. So could we extend that respect to your and my family and race on Saturdays, so that everybody can be undividedly happy with the wonderful experience of outrigger canoeing ? What is your thought ?
Aloha
Submitted by eckhart on Sun, 10/23/2005 - 10:16pm
I respect your devotion to church. It sounds like a great place and great time with those that you love. It seems to me that life boils down to choices and priorities. It sounds to me that you have enjoyed church for a good part of your life and now are enjoying paddling. I believe that you have made the choice to purchase a new canoe and have made it your desire to compete, so which is the prioroty? competeing or just paddling for recreation? Church will always be there and the season is only for so long. In the end you will make the right decision for yourself. Let us respect the fact that these people have made time (organized) to have a season and that they have created balance in their lives to make this time for people to compete. Some people have made the sacarafices from work, families and school to be there to provide for you. Please do not use this forum to advocate for church or use it as a reason that you will not be there. Compete or not compete?
#1 Sun, 10/23/2005 - 10:50pm
I also think that the moment you start catering to individual needs, you quickly find yourself unable to accomplish anything. I think it's great that you have found something valuable for you and your family at church, but many people aren't Christian - Saturday is part of the Jewish Sabbath...what about them? Life is about individual choices...trying to reshape the world around your needs will only lead to frustration. Paddle some, go to church some....smile and have fun.
#2 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 8:42am
It is a cultural issue and it is a true issue.
The post means: 'every now and then - a Saturday ? - would be great.'
#3 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 11:31am
I didn't realize that native Hawaiians were originally Christian. Didn't that only happen after colonization? I guess I'm not understanding how church is culturally Hawaiian.
Besides, my kids' soccer games are on Saturdays, so its a family decision I make during 6-man season. I just live with it.
#4 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 11:35am
go to your race then go to church. if church is an all day thing you could race and head back to chruch after. not everyone spends all day every sunday at the races. after all, the races are all pretty much less than 10 minutes long.
#5 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 1:03pm
I like to visit my grandma on Saturdays. She is real and cultural. Also, Fridays I go to watch HS football, and Monday I usually have too many late meetings at work. Thursday is my little girl's ballet lessons, and Tuesdays - Hello! I'll be at Taco Tuesday! So why can't we race on Wednesdays? After 4:30pm? And can we please have all the races on the windward side, too? Thanks.
#6 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 1:30pm
I've had the same problem ever since I started paddling. I tried a compromise by agreeing to race every other Sunday. After a season of doing that, I just decided not to compromise my faith for paddling and just quit regattas altogether.
Trying to attend religious committments and regatta is more difficult than it seems. One's ability to do both really depends on the time of the race and when and where one's services are being held.
I remember one particular race which was held at Haleiwa. My race was scheduled to beheld in the mid to late afternoon. But because things were running faster than anticipated, I was called by my teamates to be at the race in the early afternoon. I got out of church, ripped down the freeway at 80mph, pulled to the side of the road in front of the beach to let another paddler park my vehicle while I tore down the beach, and hopped into a canoe just as the race was about to begin. It was a crazy moment that I decided never to repeat in the future.
#7 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 1:35pm
taco tuesday!!!!! count me in
#8 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 2:00pm
This probably wouldn't work as well on Oahu, but I know on Kaua'i they changed races to start at noon on sunday... so if there's an early morning church service, people might still make the race. But I think they did it to let the wind pick up too. :wink:
#9 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 2:48pm
maybe alot of people work on saturdays. Thats why they make it on sundays.
#10 Mon, 10/24/2005 - 6:58pm
There is no way that Kanaka Ikaika can hold races to accomodate everybody....we all have a lot of commitments to get to, especially since we work during the week and we try to get a lot of other things accomplished on the weekends....
One suggestion to eckhart is maybe his family could meet you at the end of the race then you can spend the rest of the day with them. Or does your church only have one service, if it does go to another time or some kind of fellowship during the week....Seems like if you're serious about racing then you need to make some kind of sacrifice.
#11 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 9:01am
Snarfblat puts it quite well with " Trying to attend religious committments and regatta is more difficult than it seems ".
It is not a problem for me to drop racing because it is obviously more important to honor your culture than to race.
As Kanaka Ikaika decides to hold most of their races on Sunday morning they will have good reasons to do that and it should be respected.
This status means, however, for reason of their culture, Christians cannot participate in the Kanaka Ikaika,- nor in the short distance, nor in the long distance season. Nor can their children participate at that level for that matter.
I do not take any offense in that, but I wish it were different and maybe this fact has simply been overlooked.
If some races were on any other day, how about Saturday afternoon, then we could paddle with you, while now, we can't.
(PS: for those that are not that familiar with Christian habits: - Sunday morning is the time for the most important weekly gathering in most churches)
#12 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 11:17am
Eckhart, I would be cautious about merging culture and religion into one entity, likewise I would also be cautious about saying that for all Christians Sunday morning is the most important weekly gathering.
Firstly, culture and religion are two different things; religion is something that came long after a distinct culture was formed.
Secondly, Russian Orthodox is part of Christianity but Sunday is no different from any other day, and nor are you obliged to attend regular church service.
Additionally, a Muslim could make a similar argument saying, that all regattas should be postponed until the end of fasting of Ramadan. If they are not, then for their status, Muslims cannot participate in the regattas during Ramadan. Thus regattas are discriminatory against Muslims.
We live in a society where respect for another human beings religion, culture, and race are fundamental values of individuality and individuals freedoms. Our lives consist of choices that we juggle with everyday. Competitive outrigger paddling is one of the most demanding sports; therefore one should accept that sacrifices must be made, either in training, in racing, and/or in personal life.
Lastly, Hawaiian culture is traditionally polytheistic and an outrigger is an important symbol to Hawaiian culture. Therefore, Please respect others peoples culture and traditions.
#13 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 12:07pm
Yo, eckhart! I'll be racing, [b]and[/b] I'm a Christian. Oh, wait. You said: [quote]Christians cannot participate in the Kanaka Ikaika[/quote] Are you sure about that? Are you a better Christian than me because I'll be racing, and you'll be at church? Why don't you get off your high-horse, and make a personal decision about where you'll be spending Sunday mornings, instead of turning it into a public spectacle and making us all look bad.
#14 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 1:56pm
Okay people let's not turn this into something too heated....
Eckhart....please understand that there are a lot of devoted christians who paddle on sunday mornings. Do you think New Hope goes to regattas or distance races ONLY after they attend a morning service. I don't think so- there is always a way to make time for what is important to you. If you don't think so then maybe you shouldn't race this year till you decide to make sacrifices somewhere.
#15 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 3:03pm
I'll rest my case.
It is an interesting question whether culture and religion are two different things: I'd love to discuss it, but its probably not the right space here. And, as for the Orthodox church or and individual that decides to race on
I raced the entire last season.
It's somewhat difficult to argue a case if things are taken out of context or are being misrepresented.
There is nothing disrespectful in.
The fact that Sundady mornings are generally free of professional sports ( as far as I know ) or that this has been a topic on Kaua'i and races were changed to a later time suggests that is not only a personal issue.
It would be wrong to raise such a question if there would be a reason in the Hawaiian culture for which the races are being held on Sunday morning. If there is, please let me know.
#16 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 4:03pm
I raced the entire last season.
Whether culture and religion are two different things or not is quite interesting; I, for now, think they are one, at least for an individual life.
Exceptions, as Russian Orthodox or individuals that go to church on other times, or other religious groups that do not meet on Sunday mornings are obviously not meant here, as for them the whole argument does not apply.
What we seem to disagree about, is whether this is an individual or a general question. I think there is support for both opinions in the thread.
In case it is an individual matter only, it should not be posted here, I agree. If it is a general matter pertaining to parts of the community, it would correctly be posted here.
The thread here is to discuss the issue, not to provoke a change. To address this with the intent for change I would write to the race organizers directly.
#17 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 4:57pm
I just read on the outrigger that there are some race date changes this year and some races, I think three, will be on Saturdays. Now this is probably just coincidential to our thread, but still very impressive. Mahalo to those responsible.
PS: if anyone would like to continue to discuss our different opinions, please let me know and I'll send you my email address.
#18 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 5:38pm
I'll let it drop, but your original main issue is still a mystery to me. Since when is Christianity culturally Hawaiian? If anything, Christianity, and ensuing colonization, were partially responsible for destroying Hawaiian culture. I do not see why you advocate changing race dates in the name of "cultural respect."
#19 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 7:36pm
i think what eckhart is saying is that we've respected the tradition of hawaiian canoe racing. and if it were possible to maybe respect other traditions also and see if races could be held on saturdays? and eckhart i've seen New Hope which i think is a christian church with three different crews at 6 man long distance races on a sunday racing. so it can't be that bad to miss a few sundays. And you said you go to church not only for yourself but to see your family be happy. so in turn can't they miss church a few times to come see you be happy. not saying church doesn't make you happy.
#20 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 10:52pm
i think what eckhart is saying is that we've respected the tradition of hawaiian canoe racing. and if it were possible to maybe respect other traditions also and see if races could be held on saturdays? and eckhart i've seen New Hope which i think is a christian church with three different crews at 6 man long distance races on a sunday racing. so it can't be that bad to miss a few sundays. And you said you go to church not only for yourself but to see your family be happy. so in turn can't they miss church a few times to come see you be happy. not saying church doesn't make you happy.
[quote]do I favor my family and go to church and watch them having a good time.[/quote]
#21 Tue, 10/25/2005 - 10:56pm
I am not aware where I have given the impression to confuse Hawaiian history, sdc2447, I share your point of view. hapakid2 comments on what I tried to say.
Of course I wondered about New Hope. It would be good to hear how they have answered this question for themselves.
It is really not that easy: take the short distance season for a Novice paddler; if you cannot guarantee that you will be there every race, you probably should be careful in your attempts to get a spot on the team, just for fairness sake. That in turn may mean that during practice sessions you may sit on the beach, because the coaches don't know whether you'll be available for the races or not.
Now it is not a big deal if someone can't compete; it happens to many people for many different reasons and they all have to live with it. But of course we all would like to participate, just to see where we stand and to get better.
Our pastor and his wife are runners and like to run marathons but only do so once a year, because most of the races are on Sundays, so he told me. There is no problem with that and no offense anywhere, but I can imagine that they would be quite delighted if some of the races were on Saturdays.
Hawaii is a special place and when you have the privilege to paddle here it is just fantastic. And indeed, the organizers in the clubs and of the races deserve a special thank you.
#22 Wed, 10/26/2005 - 12:32am
New Hope has Saturday night services.
#23 Wed, 10/26/2005 - 6:30am