OC Paddle Bend Degree Question

Quick question here. I am curious why most paddle manufacturers go with a 10 degree bend but ZRE has a 12 degree standard bend. Wassup with that? Why the difference and what might that cause or help with?

Thanks for any info.

Aloha nui,

Joel

Submitted by Matuka Joe on Fri, 05/26/2006 - 9:27am



If you think about the action of the paddle creating the opposite effect on the boat (i.e., if the paddle is pressing down and back, the boat will move up and forward), the 12 degree bend might enable an effective stroke that's slightly longer than what you could get with a 10 degree bend. You could pull back a little bit further before the face of the blade passes the perpendicular-with-the-water point and starts sucking the boat down.

Maybe, dunno, not a physics major, just guessing...


#1 Fri, 05/26/2006 - 11:16am


Yeah I get that but then why does the majority of paddle makers use a 10 degree bend instead of a 12 deg? Just curious if anyone knows why ZRE went that direction...


#2 Fri, 05/26/2006 - 3:42pm


ZRE originally targeted its paddles for marathon canoeing hence, this explains the design of their paddles. The technique of marathon canoe emphasizes the back half push, hence, the 12 degree angle of the paddle allows for a more efficient and powerful marathon canoe stroke.

Even today, many former marathon present oc paddlers still use marathon canoe paddles since the difference in paddles is obscure to beginner oc paddlers.

Hope this makes sense.... it's been a long day.


#3 Fri, 05/26/2006 - 4:09pm


Actually that makes good sense. Its kind of the back half of the power circle and I suppose from what I've seen of marathon canoe in races with the way a paddler sits that must be a more efficient method for them. Now i just have to decide if a 2 deg bend difference will affect my stroke much or what. I am definitely still a beginner having only started OC since August and been a dragon boater longer.

Mahalo,
J


#4 Fri, 05/26/2006 - 7:28pm


The bend you choose also depends on the type of paddling you do.

    Sprint rudderless paddlers will often choose little (4 deg) to no bend if they do a lot of steering strokes,

    Paddlers who emphasize a quick entry and catch over a long strokes may also choose less of a bend,

    Paddlers in very flat water (i.e. >10 cm waves, lakes, sheltered lagoons, etc.) may also choose less of a bend,

    The style of the stroke tought at your club or used on your team,

    Some will suggest average paddling speed for the paddler/water conditions are also a factor.

Alan Carlsson
http://eascoaching.blogspot.com/


#5 Sat, 05/27/2006 - 6:48am


I agree with physics of paddle like a girls call that a the front of the stroke a 12 degree paddle wil lift the front of the canoe upwards as it pushes downwards but at the back of the stroke it will be "squarer" and work better.
Now if you go to the gym and do some single cable rows or bench pulls , you notice that you are WAY stronger at the front and middle of "your stroke" and it gets really hard to get the bar level or past your hip (the back parrt of your stroke ).
Based on that fact it would make sense to choose a paddle that worked best at the front and middle of your stroke (ie the straighter one is more ergonomic) and forget the back where people are less efficient.this is the same logic that led to the double bend shaft and keeping your wrist/hand straight at the most powerful time of each stroke
my opinion only ,keep on paddling ! Lats in Australia


#6 Sat, 05/27/2006 - 9:10pm


First of all ZRE will make any degree bend someone wants. The 12 degree bend is just the "normal" bend he uses without having to do additonal hand reworking of the angle.
I have tried many shaps of blades and lengths of paddles and shafts.

Funny thing is that most paddles work very well depending on the stroke being used for that particular paddle. The key for any paddle is the angle of the entry and exit points while maintaining the most efficient strength.
Smooth entry and exit gives you a clue that your arm positions are probably where they need to be for that particular paddle. If you feel that you can put the available power you have during the entire stroke thatn go with that style of stroke first.
I don't agree with the idea that you want to create a situation where the boat is being lifted by the paddler pull.
Dynamics of using power will make the boat rise due to the displacement hull but it should not be a diliberate function from the angle of the blade entering or exiting the water. The down side of rising the boat is that it has to come back down so if the power phase is too short bobing will occur.
Physics teaches us that power in one direction (going forword) is a straight line correlation from the effort being applied going straight back. The vectors of a paddle going down with an angle will make the boat go forward (as compared with a straight blade being put straight down).
Taking advantage of the body while the paddle is being put into the water may be helpful in giving added power but not when it used to lift the boat. (lifting occurs when you place the paddle flat on the surface and push down) All this does is bounce the boat. We have all seen the six man outriggers bouncing as the stroker in the boat is using his body incorrectly trying to get power
I have seen many great paddlers and many have totally different stroke techniques. Most of them all have smooth power delivery througout the entire stroke.
Paddling is a constant learning curve and what works well for you today may not be the one that works well for you next year or the year after that. Your body will be developing strengths that might need to be utilized differntly so keep that in mind.
Keep trying to see if something works better for your particular body. Don't be locked into trying to emulate any one particuar paddler style unless you are paddling with a team. Then you need to create the same power phases so your team can be the most effective when that occurs.
JE


#7 Sun, 06/04/2006 - 8:04am


Interesting thread. As latman said I seem to be strong at the very start of the stroke. I notice when I really extend my top arm and have the paddle enter the water more vertically (the way it would be if it has a less bend) it seems to really bite well where I feel I have the strongest pull.

The extending and stretching however might not be the way to go fast which I still have not figured out. :(


#8 Sun, 03/09/2008 - 9:54pm


I would guess the bend helps with the reach.as the reach can be a great tool for speed.


#9 Mon, 03/10/2008 - 8:41pm


The forvard bent canoe paddles are something of a joke as the purpose of the paddle in not to lift the boat but to propel it forvard. Top marathon blades normaly have even a bit of curve back on the blade so that the blade starts the entry more vertical and as we see the outriger paddling stoke is not the longest but rather has higher frequency than other forms of canoe paddling which in principle.
Most power is efficienty transfered when blade is in vertical and near vertical position so forvard midd to midd stroke and not at the back part of the stroke.
Also at the rear part of the stroke there is less of the bodys muscle being utilized which again makes it inefficient.

I see the froward bent paddle as a blind evolutionary branch of canoe paddle developement , almost like palm grip that is still widely used in US but is not comparable to a T grip but is still being used as people are used to seing paddles made in that way.


#10 Tue, 03/11/2008 - 11:27am


The forvard bent canoe paddles are something of a joke as the purpose of the paddle in not to lift the boat but to propel it forvard. Top marathon blades normaly have even a bit of curve back on the blade so that the blade starts the entry more vertical and as we see the outriger paddling stoke is not the longest but rather has higher frequency than other forms of canoe paddling which in principle.
Most power is efficienty transfered when blade is in vertical and near vertical position so forvard midd to midd stroke and not at the back part of the stroke.
Also at the rear part of the stroke there is less of the bodys muscle being utilized which again makes it inefficient.

I see the froward bent paddle as a blind evolutionary branch of canoe paddle developement , almost like palm grip that is still widely used in US but is not comparable to a T grip but is still being used as people are used to seing paddles made in that way.


#11 Tue, 03/11/2008 - 11:27am


Don't we want the canoe to rise a bit as well as move forward so that there is less hull in contact with the water, therefore less drag?


#12 Tue, 03/11/2008 - 11:58am


No because that is much to much work ,we want to have a steady stroke which causes as little rocking and any other motion other that forvard ,boats are designed for efficiency and the pumping and rocking motions we try to awoid by making asymetrical canoes which dammpen the frequency of both rocking and pumping .

Most efficent boat hulls have wider waterlines at the back than at the front and center of gravity forward of the mid point. Also we always battle the sinkage of the rear because of bow wave which causes the bow to rise a bit when paddling.


#13 Tue, 03/11/2008 - 12:35pm


Canoemaker
would it make sence to have a slighte bend in the canoe to the righte to compensate for the pulling of the ama?


#14 Tue, 03/11/2008 - 6:22pm


A friend of mine is building a proa in the back of my workshop and it has 2 distinct features one is asymetric hull for countering the sideways force of the sails and a slight bend to compensate for the ama .This proas actualy sail without rudder or paddle steering just with sail trim.
But i would think it would be dificoult to do on the oc-1 for the simple reason that the speed range in which the boat is moving i quite great ,if you optimize it for paddling speeds it will probybly start turning the boat to much when surfing ,but if you optimise it for surfing it will not do enough when paddling.
But as you have a rudder you can always adjust it to compensate for it.also as jou see the amas are also geting lighter and less draggy..


#15 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 10:17am


Proa, the most efficient sailing design eva ... and modern Marine Architects ignore it and think Catamarans/Trimarans are the Bees Dick. Will they eva learn?

Rambo


#16 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 11:06am


The proa is to different in concept and also in the way it sails that it will newer be a mainstream type design ,but if you look at the sailing speed records trying to break 50 knots many designs are proas by cocept but so purpose designed that they look wierd


#17 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 1:28pm


you got me interested in this proa... googled it.. besides some interesting stuff on proas, this came up...check this out

also here's a wood proa oc1 w/ asymetrical hull- a rental even


#18 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 6:54pm


a solar powered Nai'a... John Martin would be.... well...intrigued.


#19 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 7:32pm


that naia is AWESOME

i haven't laughed out loud at a post in a while


#20 Wed, 03/12/2008 - 8:44pm


Canoemaker, did you say the forward bend is unnecessary? Top marathoners don't use them? Why does ZRE make and sell so many of them? Is this all because of mere fashion? Please explain.


#21 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 4:59am


Marathonpaddlerje's last two paragraphs says it all!


#22 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 5:47am


It is mostly fashion ,which i can explain best by anecdotes .

In whitewater canoeing we had a superb paddler by the name of john lugbill who paddled dinstinctly and while paddling he had a personal kink that he was shaking the head to folow each paddle stroke and after he became a world champion you could see dosens of paddlers shaking their heads like him thinking that that must a way to go ,but in reality that was bull and was only slowing every one down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Lugbill

Richard Fox geatest paddler ever: 5xWorld Champion; 1xWorld Bronze medallist; 5xWorld team Champion; Olympian; 8xNational Champion . Was the first one to use the double toque paddles(duble bent ) and every one juped at thos paddles and they didnt realy work but as the guy paddling them first was so good everyone wanted them but they were actualy even slover than before(but it took almost 15 years for them to disaper from the scene )

And a list of such funny experiments is almost newer ending.

Remember a-cat worlds a guy shows up with only one dagger board instead of 2 and has to switch the dagger board from one side to another just to be able to sail and amazingly he finishes top 3 but the stupid thin is that for the next race many sailors showed up with a single daggerbard thinking hov beneficial it is to save weight on leaving one on the shore.

It is also quite important if the sport is very competitive(people training twice a day troughout the year) or not, in highly competitive sports where there is close competition such dead ends finish their life quickly.
So you dont se funy experiments in the competition running shoes ,skis,bikes evolution makes all more or less equal.


#23 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 8:32am


would it make sence to have a slighte bend in the canoe to the righte to compensate for the pulling of the ama?

mulus,
venetian gondolas have an asymetric hull, to compensate the fact that the gondolier is paddling on one side only...


#24 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 11:41am


So...I think you'll like the pic I've attached. The middle paddle looks like a carved double bend paddle. The paddles are old antique Maori paddles. So the double bend/ has been around a while.....I wonder if the Maori are getting any royalties from the Kialoa's wacky shaft paddle?

Can you imagine trying to carve that!!!


#25 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 6:17pm


Hiro C.

Venetian gondolas having an asymmetric hull would help and it couldn’t hurt with a outrigger. I would like to try make a oc6. That pic of them canoe horse is like the ones I made from a earlier thread, they are nice.


#26 Thu, 03/13/2008 - 6:35pm


Please register or login to post a comment.

Page loaded in 0.262 seconds.