Just wanted to say that we are all thankful for Keizo and his website. Keep up the good work, even if you have some difficult forum topics to moderate. :)
Submitted by nekine on Thu, 11/23/2006 - 10:05am
Just wanted to say that we are all thankful for Keizo and his website. Keep up the good work, even if you have some difficult forum topics to moderate. :)
Submitted by nekine on Thu, 11/23/2006 - 10:05am
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G'day Keizo!
Thanks for all your hard work over the last 4 years. OCPaddler is a respected forum, known throughout the paddling world, which provides an important resource for us all. But mate, it's your forum - you have to be happy with it too. As moderator, you have editorial and censorship rights which no one could say you abuse. One post in 4 years.......
Removing the offending post obviously was a difficult decision for you. This can only be to your credit. Don't think you've violated anyone's right to free speach or anything. Using OCPaddler to express an 'ignoranus' (stupid and an a**hole) attitude is no different to posting p0rn. It's irrelevant to the sport and doesn't belong here.
And thanks for the reminder about "How to Win Friends and Influence People". It's a book many of us in the modern world would benefit from reading. My grandfather kept a copy on his desk always.
Thanks again for all your good work. Good luck with the studies and the snow. Cross-country skiing is great cross-training.
Aloha from OZ!
#1 Thu, 11/23/2006 - 11:36am
Jeez man, it's thanksgiving, there are more important things to be thankful for. Happy turkey day.
#2 Thu, 11/23/2006 - 6:05pm
But Thanksgiving is on Thursday, isn't it? It's Friday here.
Oz doesn't celebrate Thanksgiving anyway. Just as well, I couldn't handle a big meal on such a hot day (currently 28.3C in beautiful downtown Townsville). But have a big slice of pumpkin pie for me.
We'll be taking the club's new Mirage for a spin around the western end of the island this arvo. Hooroo!
#3 Thu, 11/23/2006 - 6:52pm
Stay away from:
I think every post I've ever made breaks one or more of these rules. Well, it was nice knowing you guys - have fun without me...
C'mon can't you just let ONE sarcastic a-hole in here?
#4 Thu, 11/23/2006 - 8:28pm
Aloha Capnron,
Wanna trade? Its below freezing here. I'll take hot any day to get out of my drysuit!
Cheers,
Bob
Kanu The Rock
#5 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 1:13am
capnron, thanks for the kind words. You are right, but I know Mr. nevslin and it was turkey day where he lives. Have a good time on the new Mirage.
goto, didn't you notice all your comments get deleted? Oh, wait, they are still visible to you, just not anyone else. :-)
#6 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 6:47am
Thanks Keizo for running a great forum. a refresher of forum behaviour is always appropriate...
I managed to read the original posting before it got pulled, and while i agree it went too far (naming specific people, clubs etc) it did highlight a genuine concern for the sport. If people are behaving in this manner on the water, it is a very sad reflection on what we have become.
Is there any chance the story could be re-run, but with personal detail ommitted?
i think it would provide interesting discussion on a serious topic (are training programmes so specialised they must be defended at all costs?)
keep up the good work.
#7 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 3:09pm
dammit, i wake up from my turkey coma to read all of this?
why? why, cruel world, did i miss the juiciest post ever?
oh well, there will be others.
as usual, word of mouth passed the story along anyway. i think two of the fastest communication methods in the world are Telephone and Tellapaddler.
#8 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 3:49pm
Hi Mullet:
The post was indeed dramatic and it did get a lot of attention (The reason being that the name of a club and paddlers were used.) But I am glad it was removed because I believe the purpose of it was not to talk about behavior on the water, but a way to hurt the reputation of highly respected paddlers and canoe club in the community. I think the damage has been done already and I only hope the person who wrote it is ready for the ramifications of it.
Aloha
#9 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 4:06pm
"I only hope the person who wrote it is ready for the ramifications of it. "
GULP
that makes me nerbous for whoever made that post.
BTW, thanks Keizo.
#10 Fri, 11/24/2006 - 7:19pm
This is Keizo's baby and he can choose to do whatever he so chooses. We're just thankful that this site even exists. If anyone doesn't like the rules, right or wrong, they can leave and that is the American way.
I reported the incident because it ACTUALLY happened, I didn't make it up, and there were witnesses and admission by the PERPETRATOR to a police officer ( who also happens to be a paddler ) that it actually happened. What seems to ruffle everyone's feathers is because it was a well known paddler attacking a novice paddler a mile out in the ocean. An unprovoked attack. Apparently this seems to be an OK situation. What if it was the other way around ? God forbid what the reaction would be ?
The unique thing about our country is that the truth can always come out. Whether or not the perpetrator is a "well respected" person ( paddler in this case ). This is no different from how small websites that report on BAD stuff that supposedly good people do. Lots of Well respected people do "questionable" things:-
The list is ENDLESS. How do other people find out about such bad things ? Because SOMEONE speaks up despite all fear of RIDICULE and PEER PRESSURE. Initial reaction is always to blame the victim when the perpetrator is “WELL KNOWNâ€, thus the rationale behind using a different handle to report the incident. No one seems to be outraged that the incident even happened in paddling. Everyone so far is outraged that there is discussion about the incident because it may put the sport in a bad light to the rest of the world ? This confirms my worst fears that we are so into talking about the “Aloha†spirit that anyone or any incident that may crack that illusion is automatically going to be ridiculed – RAMIFICATIONS !! as brother Aloha4Aina has so correctly put it.
What else could be worse that what has happened already ? MORE BEATINGS, MORE VANDALISM TO Victim’s property ? All that has happened already. This year on the Big Island we’ve had several incidents of canoes, amas, seats, iakos stolen right from our Halaus. We’ve had Keiki program canoes vandalized 3 times so far this year. 2 women who tried to pass around a “no violence†petition ( after the Waikoloa beach brawl ) got blacklisted for even trying etc. etc. Bottomline is, sweep all the bad stuff under the carpet, just in case other people get the bad impression. We live in the internet age, that is impossible.
You want to prevent a bad impression, don’t behave badly ! Its that simple. PRACTICE the Aloha spirit. You cannot turn around your canoe and attack someone full force just because you don’t like that person !! You certainly cannot turn your truck around and RAM someone off the road (not once but 4 times ) and not be charged with a felony !! The OCEAN belongs to all of us to use with care and respect. It is not anyone’s PRIVATE turf. If that is that case, then wealthy individuals could buy up all the rights to access.
The cynical lesson from this experience in our sport is this: - There are 2 sets of rules for paddlers. If you’re a great paddler, you can do no wrong. No different from High School, College or Professional sports like Football, Basketball or Baseball, where all kinds of bad behaviour is OK. If you’re “nobodyâ€, get ready for another ass-kicking if you even say a word about it !! Its great to live in Iraq isn’t it ??
#11 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 12:43pm
Witness Protection,
I don't think anyone is attacking the victim. Keizo has a responsibility to moderate this site in a way that protects everyone. While I'm sure you aren't making up what happened, and I sympathize with your situation, Keizo has no way of knowing what you say is true, and therefore must limit possible libel or slander. In an open and unmoderated forum, what would prevent someone from making public remarks about another person without recourse? The forum must remain objective and is not a place for personal attacks - no more than the open ocean. I'm sorry for what happened to you and it sounds like your course of action should remain in the courts, not in an open forum. The outcome of the case can then be reported objectively. If you truly want justice, I suggest holding off on your emotional rants...they can only come back to haunt you. Let the justice system takes its course and report the outcome. Again, it sounds like you have reason to be upset, but you're handling this all wrong. Focus your energy into a good attorney. I think the issue of what's correct protocol on the water is one worth having, but in another way. Good luck to you.
#12 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 1:06pm
Dear Witness Protection:
It appears that you are not done with the forum that Keizo had closed with good reason. You claim you are a victim and you are expecting justice of some sort, but you cannot get it here on OC Paddler. Mel Gibson? Congressman Mark Foley? Boy, you are comparing the accused to some BIG name people. He must be somebody in Hawaii with that kind of power!!!
Keizo has this awesome site for the purpose of informing us on the latest in the paddling world and connecting paddlers from all walks of life to share in the common love of paddling.
I remember reading Kalei's side of the story (Post: 2 sides to every story) and it sounds quite different from yours. Now comes the thought for us as 3rd parties to say, "Hmmm, who is telling the truth?" We cannot make that judgement in your favor or in the favor of the accused. The accused hasn't even responded on the site, which I would think he would the way you spoke about him. I can only guess that the reason some of the top paddlers asked Keizo to take it off is because they know you personally and do not think you are truthful in your statements. Do you have good repoir with all the paddlers where you live?
I think this drama will not be over until you deal with this off of Keizo's website, work this situation out in court if you do indeed have enough witnesses and proof, and settle this ranting and raving once and for all. It's too much wasted energy don't you think? (It does make an interesting forum though!)
Aloha4aina
#13 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 3:24pm
Many good points you brought up and I agree with you on some level. Dropping names is still not the way to rectify the situation. I pasted an article for you (and the rest of us) for future reference. One thing that bothered me is that it jeopardizes OC Paddler. Keizo could have gotten into a lot of trouble because there are ethics involved as a moderator and having open forums like this.
$11.3M award for Internet defamation
A Florida woman who sued over defamatory postings on an Internet bulletin board has won a jury verdict of $11.3 million, including $5 million in punitive damages, reports the Daily Business Review. The woman, Susan Scheff, sued after she and her company were accused of being "crooks," "con artists" and "frauds."
Scheff, who describes herself as an educational consultant, was hired by Carey Bock to help get Bock's two sons out of a school for troubled teens in Costa Rica. Scheff was successful, but Bock later posted the accusations on a bulletin board for parents of troubled teens.
USA Today reports that Scheff pursued the case even though she knew Bock would be unable to pay an award. Bock could not afford an attorney and did not appear at the trial. Scheff told USA Today that she wanted to make a point to those who unfairly criticize others on the Internet. "I'm sure [Bock] doesn't have $1 million, let alone $11 million, but the message is strong and clear. People are using the Internet to destroy people they don't like, and you can't do that."
Thanks Keizo for all your hard work!
#14 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 3:22pm
DQC:
You made a good point on the fact that slandering people over the Internet is dangerous in legal aspects. That being the "ramifications" I mentioned in my earlier post. I believe Witness Protection has a lot of emotional issues with the accused and did not think before he posted. I know it's too little, too late, but maybe discussing it with a mediator and those involved would've been a better way to go.
Aloha4aina
#15 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 3:37pm
This topic sure has done a 180 from what I originally posted about. This was just supposed to thank Keizo for the hard work that he puts into this site, not to bring up that other post again. Lets please keep this topic about what a wonderful site that ocpaddler is.
#16 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 4:09pm
Hi Nevslin:
Funny how forums have a way of twisting and turning in different directions. I don't even know how it got back to it! If everyone agrees with nevslin, let me here an AMEN!!!
Aloha4aina
#17 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 4:13pm
Mullet, you are right. Looks like frosso is already addressing part of the issue in another thread and that is great.
As for what's going on in the rest of the thread... thanks nevslin. I almost wanted to take the time to go through and respond to every post, but I don't think I would add anything that I didn't express in my other post. What I said there expresses what I thought about the entire issue (both sides), not just the post.
#18 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 4:24pm
Hey Nevslin:
I think I know how it might have turned to the old forum. It was the last part of your post:
"Even if you have some difficult forums to moderate."
I think it got some people to agree with you and others to say, "What the heck happened?"
And that's how it started.
Aloha4aina
#19 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 4:38pm
Thanks for the Forum- Keep up the GREAT work and feel free to unpost anything you feel you need to. Way to step up and take charge!
It's difficult when a few people have to air their dirty laundry to the world. (and keep adding to it time after time) If that's how they get their thrills, so be it, I'll read it and watch the fallout (like NASCAR- waiting for the firery crash).
Way to keep it focused on Outrigger Paddling- and remember- There's no reason to clear out the entire stadium because of a few rowdy fans...
Some of us are truly harmless...
(Except of course the Post-Thanksgiving-Super-Powered-Turkey-Sandwich-Eating Luke Evslin)
Gobble Gobble!
#20 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 7:58pm
Being a lurker for a long time, its time to flash oneself. Been paddling out of Keauhou for many years and retired from mainstream media for many, many years. Did glance at the posting briefly and was going to give my two cents later, but then it was gone. Its a talked about issue on the island and we've heard bits and pieces personally. Whatever happened, there is no reason for responding to and disagreement with blows.
If this was CBS news or the New York Times, then the issue of a journalist writing as an observer / reporter in such personal terms with names and organizations published without checking the facts and passing the legal "smell test" , then such articles should not be published.
Question is on this public site, is the writeror poster a reporter for this organization ? If no then why is the journalistic standard applied ? If the writer is reflecting a personal experience, then the moderator in this case is exercising editorial oversight by censoring the story, whether fiction or not. So if you're an open forum, you cannot have it both ways. But of course, the owner of the website can do whatever he wants but be clear that under the guise of civility, this dual nature is not entirely pure. Thought I give you kids a lesson in philosphy from us old codger that have been around the block many times. Yours Truly, Keep Paddling, Stop Fighting ( debating is Ok)
#21 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 9:13pm
Aloha4aina,
What you don't realize is that I've IGNORED the constant harassment from said "well known paddler" for the last 2 years. He used to be my Novice B coach but got tired of taking the verbal abuse in and out of the canoe. I told him where he stick can stick his crap and left. Ever since then, it has been a constant ESCALATION in harassment despite completely avoiding and ignoring a whole string of nasty things done.
However, when the "well known paddler" actually carries out an often repeated threat of "I'm gonna kick your ass", all bets are off.
No, I did not ever think this site is the place to get justice, that will SLOWLY wind its way thru our overburdened legal system. However I guess this forum cannot handle sensitive topics, everyone is way too concerned about the appearance of brotherhood, not necessarily the reality of it.
Apparently the words of a few other "well known" paddlers who are friends of the perpetrator is enough to sway the mood and tenor of this website. Why is it that there is the AUTOMATIC assumption that as long as you are a top paddler, you must be a more honest and moral person. Is this a truism ???
C'mon you guys are naive !!!
#22 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 9:44pm
then get the P-O-L-I-C-E involved.
thanks again Keizo...hey maybe i'll just change my signature to "thanks Keizo" that would be kuehl
#23 Sat, 11/25/2006 - 11:36pm
witness protection
This is a post on thanking Keizo not the updates on your life. Give Keizo the spot light for one day jees. And your post said not once but 4 times the attacker came at you. Who in their right mind sticks around to get attacked 4 times. I woulda went in and called the cops after the first or second time. I guess 4 times makes the story sound better.
#24 Sun, 11/26/2006 - 12:15am
So, Witness Protection, are you now turning on the entire forum community because you've been denied the opportunity to make statements that would endanger Keizo and OCPaddler? Get a grip, mate. You're digging yourself a hole that you may have difficulty ever getting out of. People have already spoken out against acts of violence on the water, the sillyness of "secret training programs", etc. What more do you expect the forum community to do - ostracise the other party? contribute to the slander and libel?
I finally got to read the original thread and, although I would be inclined to accept your version of the events, the simple fact is that you can't use a public forum in this way. Take it to the courts. If they're too slow for your liking, complain to your Congressman. End of story.
If what you say is true, the man in question will come undone through his own doing. Don't you do the same.
Aloha & keep paddling. "Turn the other cheek" wouldn't go astray, either.
#25 Sun, 11/26/2006 - 12:47am
Thanks Keizo for this awesome website man! Keep up the good work all the way up there in NYC. Now what happened with the whole hacking incident?
So has anyone been "secret eating" cause this time of the year my diet goes out the window and I'm hell bent on eating like crap. It's 1:00 am and I'm polishing off some leftover pumpkin pie as I type this.
#26 Sun, 11/26/2006 - 1:19am
Hey guys, I appreciate all the wonderful comments about me, but I really didn't make this website for that! Can we move on?
GrumpyOldMan, thanks for your words of wisdom. I agree to some extent, but there are some differences with a website I think. I've got ro run, but I will try to say more later.
Aloha
#27 Sun, 11/26/2006 - 6:26am
Thank you Keizo! Thank you so much! I want you to be the father of my wife's children! I love "well-known paddlers"! Thank you for defending your fellow "well-known paddler"! Let's declare November 26th Keizo Day! Paddling is awesome! Paddling forums are awesome too! Let's all write about paddling instead of ACTUALLY paddling! It's too cold out right now anyways! Hooray censorship!
Seriously though... Thanks Keizo - no joke.
#28 Sun, 11/26/2006 - 4:39pm
That's the problem of not being able to tell the situation in full. I went HARD RIGHT, he followed, I turned HARD LEFT, he followed. This went on for 25 minutes.
Yes, and for those who missed it, the authorities are involved.
No, this is not an update on my life !
Just the facts
#29 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 7:43am
No, please do not try and twist it to something else, I'm NOT trying to turn on the rest of the community. Can we not have a discussion without feeling that YOU are being attacked ? I was attacked, not you.
I have as much love and respect for what Keizo does as any of you guys. Of course this is not the only website we use in our daily lives but the standard for Slander & Libel is way, way off. This is not a civil matter but a criminal issue and no commercial or financial assets are at stake. If one the other hand KEIZO himself reported on the story and it proves to be a total fabrication, then you may have a slim chance at proving it.
BUT, this being an open forum, and as ANY open forum has a DISCLAIMER, ALL content has to be viewed as FICTION, and for entertainment purposes only. I think the post by Grumpy was trying to point it out. So get over the slander and libel excuse already, and "digging myself a deeper hole". I got pushed into the hole !
Do you know how depressing this is ? Constantly have to "watch" when and where you paddle ? And with an unreasonable man, how many "cheeks can you turn" before you .... ?? I believe in civility. As I said in the other posting, I paddle for Fun, Fitness, Friendship & Fellowship, NOT Fighting.
Yeah, gotta love GOTO's response, that is essentially the openness of any forum. Say whatever you want, sometimes its really funny !
#30 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:00am
Witness Protection:
After many attempts by your fellow posters to get you to stop, you still carry on. What do you want out of this constant "I'm telling the truth! I'm the victim! I gotta look over my shoulder! etc."? Are you even taking the good advice of your fellow posters to call the police? If what you say is true (and I am hearing otherwise) then you can handle the situation out of this forum.
I'm beginning to believe that your constant trying to prove you are right, is making me think that you just have personal feelings toward the accused and maybe some jealousy that he is a top paddler. If he was your coach, then he took the tiime to train you, guide you, and make you a better paddler. Most coaches don't get paid for that. They can't win the favor of everyone, but I see this club has become what it is today due to good coaching and great paddlers. The fact that you are not in there and are now "attacking" your former coach, makes me think you are jealous of his success.
If you don't think that what you are doing is slander, than I suggest you get some legal advice on your actions. I'm sure the accused has found out about your on-line antics and will seek legal help to get you to stop harassing him (you are indeed harassing him with your verbal outbursts).
A few words of advice, no more childish outbursts and let's get some intellectual discussions from you. Anything great to talk about besides this?
Aloha4aina
#31 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:36am
first off- in the spirit of the post, keizo, you're doing an awesome job, and the fact that you're dealing with these issues is reflective of the fact that people have embraced your site...
witness protection: i was going to stay quiet since it seems like you've been through enough, but the fact that you keep jumping back in and trying to "teach" all us makes me want to respond to you... i don't live on the big island, i don't know you or any of the other parties...
first off, the fact that you consider yourself "witness protection" for your safety is a joke- you live on the big island- you being anonymous on this site isn't going to prevent any harm to you or your equipment, in any way that matters... the fact that you keep yourself anonymous while being explicit in naming names and sponsors and clubs of everyone else involved is really distasteful. you even went so far into detail about the other guy getting blitzed after parties (i've been blitzed after parties- it's a party).... i'm sure you felt like that was relevant info, it seemed to me like you wanted to get back at the guy and since you couldn't do it physically, you mean to do it legally (your prerogative) and by going after his reputation... does he beat his wife, and kick his dog too?
again, i don't know you (you may be the coolest guy and other guy the d-ck that you say), but the fact that you had problems as a novice with your coach could well be that you were the problem.. maybe, maybe not... don't know... the fact that you got beat down, same thing.. of course resorting to violence is bad, but that doesn't mean that i always side with the victim- don't know the whole situation.
the "secret training program" is obviously not a secret training program.. it's simply that the guy doesn't like you and doesn't want you around- not that he's worried that you're going to be breathing down his neck in the next race.. so that's a moot point. yes, it's an open ocean, but if someone don't like you and you can't take him down, then i recommend paddling somewhere else, or in a different direction- you trying to prove a point isn't going to help you.
the fact of the matter is that you live where you live.. you follow the rules of where you live. you may not like that you get run off because people don't like you, but thats no different whether you're paddling or surfing- you either move or make do....you go after a guy in a public forum like this, and get personal and specific, without any way of the other person to respond, and then complain that people are not behaving right is a joke.
i could care less that the other guy is an elite paddler (don't know him), but the way that you behave on this forum makes me not look kindly to your version of events....but if you want to let the whole world know, then man up and i.d. yourself... do what you're going to do and leave us out of it. i for one am sick of your condescending tone...
#32 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:20am
So you just want me to shut up right ? And I'm supposed to be jealous of a man that cannot control his anger other than thru his fists ? Bra, I said I was in a Novice B crew that had him as a coach. I was ALWAYS very supportive of him, even carried him home several times. I am not talking about his paddling ability, just his non-paddling antics. And I have no fear of him taking legal action against me. WHY ? because what happened was true, you cannot sue someone for slander when what you say actually happened. You don't seem to think its a big deal. Do you lash out physically too ? at anyone that doesn't agree with you ?
I am NOT criticizing the other paddlers in the club at all. I have great respect for all of them. Just that the President of said "top canoe club" should have a HIGHER standard of behaviour than everyone else, or am I crazy to assume that ?
Do you believe that because you are a top paddler, you can do whatever you want to other PEOPLE ? If so, that's bad for paddling. Also, if you feel that any attempt to "set the facts straight" is a "childish outburst" then you can't seem to have a rational discourse, can you.
The interesting topic here is that if you have an altercation out in the ocean, the county police is only the BACKUP, its DLNR that handles the case. Further out ocean, it becomes a Coast Guard issue, a FEDERAL matter. The lesson here is that if you're going to have a fight in the water, make sure you know where you are .... Now that I didn't know. For eg how do our paddling associations report this and to WHO ?
Anyone with this knowledge would be greatly appreciated
#33 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:24am
You might want to consult a sea lawyer.
#34 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:35am
Didn't mean to make you pissed off, or any effort at being condescending. As for ID, no one knows who you are either ?maybe long time posters do, but not newbies like me, nor anyone here other than Keizo, so c'mon be consistent. Bottomline is, its a natural reaction when others on the forum start taking potshots as well, and changing the issues to jealousy to etc. etc. Yeah, from the few people that have responded, the general consensus is "deal with it".
And about "man up", thanks for all the words of encouragement and support to "man up". Better go look for my balls or something I guess.... haven't heard that way of speaking for a long time. C'mon, have a sense of humor, I have to .. !!
#35 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:42am
Witness Protection:
Yep! Please shut up. Anyone else in agreement? If you are not afraid of him taking legal action and you think justice will prevail on your behalf, then just sit and wait. Are you accusing me of being physical, because I am starting to side with the accused? He is obviously going on with his life, how come you can't? You can't set anything "straight" here, because this is a forum where people can be objective to your comments. What do you want us to do? Do you want all of us to say, "Yeah, you are right, that guy must have done it! We will not talk to him or acknowledge his club!!! Bad guy!!" Would that do it for you? Would it make you happy?
You still haven't answered my question. Do you have anything else INTELLECTUAL to talk about?
Aloha4aina
#36 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 11:03am
Since you joined our litlle community only since the 19th of November this year I'm sure you haven't had time to read a lot of threads from previous posts which will give you a sense of what we are all about. Sure you can get hot under the collar but you'll find that after the next couple of responses that there is another side to every story which brings everybody back to reality. The hard part about being sympathetic to your cause is that You didn't allow us to see your side when you kept it unintellectual by which I mean personal which got our good man Keizo involved and your comment booted. You still make it hard to conjure up some empathy after the initial "hot collar" Even after the 3rd page of thread for example You still go after dacho when he asks you to reveal your ID. You can go deeper then "Well what's your ID?". It may occur to you that revealing your ID may actually protect you. All the great dissidents were protected once they were publicly known.
I recommend a litlle more introspection and a lot less paranoia.
Take a couple of nice hard paddles and if that's not enough take some more
and join us again with peace in your heart, walking the high road.
Aloha
#37 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 11:47am
look how aggravated you guys get, and this is just debating.. or so I thought. Yes, peace to you guys
#38 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 12:18pm
Thanks for your response. I did take the high road by controlling my anger and not strike back so that it would not become a full scale brawl out in the ocean. It is dangerous.
And no, I ddin't get Keizo involved. Other paddlers that know the perpetrator called and emailed Keizo. For the 6th time, I am completely in support of Keizo and I'm more completely OK with whatever he did. It is his right. I already apologized to Keizo about it and have asked him not to repost what I wrote ( which was not written with any expletives, rude language or anything pornographic etc. etc. ) You guys make it like I murdered somebody !!
So please stop framing this as if I'm taking potshots at any of you or Keizo. Its a very easy way to demonize me just for speaking my mind. There is this great taboo about being personal, well, these are personal posts by all of us, not written by some univolved 3rd party for us to just read, and not respond. I sense that a couple of you are really good friends of the paddler in question and are just reacting instinctively. Again, that's your right.
But you guys are right about one thing. Its pointless to try and defend yourself if you're nobody.
#39 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 12:33pm
WP, why don't you relocate to Seattle? We have no secret training here and only a few grumpy Kanaks. You may, however, be subject to Goto's insidious brand of sarchasm and/or virtual indifference.
#40 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 12:42pm
We want to debate on something about paddling not on your life and what has happened to it. And you always talk about "well known paddler" vs. the nobody. Your crazy your very "well known" maybe ever more "well known" than the "well known" paddler but just maybe in a way that might not be so good.
#41 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 1:30pm
Hi Hapakid2
You made a very good point and I couldn't have said it better myself.
Aloha4aina
#42 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 1:59pm
If everyone on the Big Island knows the names of these two guys, how come Witness Protection doesn't just go by his real name on this site. He's in no danger from us (oc paddler gang) other than a few snide remarks-like I said watch out for Goto. By the way, my name is James Clapp, I grew up in Kailua(the other Kailua, O'ahu) and presently live and paddle in Seattle. I don't see the reason for all the anonymity, anyway. We're all just a bunch of paddleheads, right?
#43 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 3:45pm
i wasn't gonna post on this because i thought that it would get old and burn itself out after a few posts but after going away and coming back a few hours later and finding another page of posts i think that this is getting old and that wp needs to drop it and we should get back to thanking keizo for the awesome site he has...the first rule about holes is to stop digging...i don't think any of us are going to be able to help wp and he's not helping any of us...this is escalating to be like the thread about new hope paddling ministry for those of you who remember that...and that didn't really end well haha so thanks keizo for an awesome site
see you on the water
#44 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 3:52pm
WP is a newcomer to the Big Island; he has created more friction than friends in the paddling community. My suggestion to you WP is put your energies towards those who
are less fortunate and see what comes from it. The world has way to many problems as is-don't create new ones.
#45 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 4:16pm
I suspected WP is a newcomer to the Big Island,konapaddler. People who grow up in Hawai'i know how to handle these things without the authorities or technology. As a haole who grew up on O'ahu experiencing both sides of such incidents many times, I came to realize that one could learn much about one's self from these dramas. When someone wants to kick your ass that badly, there's often a reason. When I would have a dispute with someone, I'd just avoid them for awhile and before you knew it you'd be fast friends again. That's just how it is in Hawai'i. Smile and the world smiles with you. I think what WP and his buddy need is a little more Ho'oponopono and a little less internet trash talk and police.
P.S. That's the right word I hope...
#46 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 4:54pm
WP, if the other fellow is a top paddler and can drink - send him down here! In fact, send the whole club down. Then you can have the ocean to yourself. Any club in Australia would love to have em! We'll show em how to party! We've got sheilas that would drink any 6 Yanks under the table.
Paddle hard! Party hard! Aussie, Aussie, Aussie!
#47 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 5:51pm
I have been away from the site for a while trying to catch up on Thanksgiving and Christmas stuff with the family. I have historically been just a reader of the forum and not a poster. However, now that I have gotten caught up on the last string, I felt a need to comment on a couple of items.
First, Keizo does run an excellent site. Thank you for providing us with such an informative and fun place to learn more about the happenings of the OC world.
Second, I have to strongly disagree with Konapaddler. WP is not a waste of time at all! I read the original post and the chains following it.
This gets me back to my first point. Keizo wrote a very appropriate email when he removed the first posting by WP. He is the moderator. He makes the rules. Further, he ended his email with a few very appropriate sentences. I quote, "Spread a little aloha. Take someone who's never paddled out around the bay. Bring a friend to practice. Be nice, wave to other paddlers, smile. Make people feel welcomed. I will try my best too."
This brings me back to WP who I am lucky enough to know and call my friend. You may have guessed from my OC name, that I am not a Hawaiian local. I live a not so short 12 hour plane ride east in New England. However, I have been going to Hawaii almost every year with my family since I was a kid. We now have a house on the Big Island which is one of my very favorite places on earth. The people there, for the most part, have been very welcoming. One area that had been tough to break into during my trips had been outrigger canoeing. There was just no one who I came in contact with who participated in the sport who would take me out, or spend time with me paddling, or help me get a canoe back East.
So, on our trip this summer, I was determined to finally get into a OC. A few conversations, and a blind email got me in contact with WP. He called me, and set up a meeting at the local Burger King the next day. My wife and I talked to WP for a while, and then found ourselves 30 minutes later at the harbor getting ready to go out in an OC2. There we met up with Todd, WP's paddling partner the day of the much discussed incident. WP and Todd gave us some pointers on land, and then off we went with WP as an escort. Within a very short time, we huli'd. We got back in paddled some more, huli'd somemore, but made it out past the now infamous green buoy. After getting out a ways and down the shore a bit, WP had us stop and just sit bouncing on the waves. I am sure part of that was motivated by his desire to not see my heart explode. However, a large part was motivated by his discussion of what I now refer to as the Zen of Paddling. He spoke about enjoying the natural beauty that surrounded us. The water, the waves, the land and the valcano, and the setting sun's slow decline reflecting in the ocean. He spoke about focus, team work, always working with your partner. How paddling can teach you so much about life in general. It was really a very meaningful and wonderful experience for which I will always owe him a debt of gratitude.
This to me was practicing the meaning of aloha. We had known him for no more than an hour before this event. We paddled back in and met up with Todd who helped us get back on dry land. For the last week of trip, we went paddling a few more time with WP and Todd. They introduced us to some of their other paddling friends. My dad bought an OC1from a local store, and WP and Todd proceeded to coach him, my brother in law, my nephews, and me and wife. They lent us extra canoes and could not have been more welcoming, friendly, or kind. They seemed to be just completely jazzed that they were turning us on to the great sport of outrigger canoeing.
So, to my dazed and confused subject line. I know that many people voiced agreement that violence on the water and in the sport is wrong. I was glad to see that as when I first heard the story, I found it amazing that such bad conduct would be tolerated by anyone. I think that WP's questions in the original posting were appropriate. Why would people want to have violence in their sport tolerated. However, many comments got negative towards WP, and his motives. Heck, I am sure that if something like that happened to me, I would have gotten pretty irrate myself. But, I think that his underlying questions where appropriate. Do the members and their organizations want to condone violence in the sport? Almost more importantly, do the members want to have officers of their occ's participating in and/or instigating that violence? This is something for the OC community to decide for themselves in places like this forum, and in club meetings. The police can handle the criminal piece of the particular incident at hand. I think that a lot of what WP is trying to get by his postings is an active dialog about the piece that the police can't decide on for the sport. Are you as a community going to tolerate violence especially by your leaders?
I am sorry to have rambled on so much here. However, it just really started to bug me that WP's message got lost in shots being taken at him largely because of his posting the offenders names. Maybe he was right to do so. Maybe he was wrong to do so. I think that is just a matter of personal opinion. But I do know that WP has always been good to me, and always treated me and my family with the spirit of aloha. How many of us can say that about ourselves?
#48 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 6:00pm
Haole 1....He got in touch with you because he and his partner was trying to sell you a HYPR canoe.....It's all about PR.
#49 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 7:02pm
That's funny, I just knew he was that guy! Dig deep is right Haole1.
#50 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:17pm
After reading your posting, is WP the HYPR canoe guy (ian foo)?
#51 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:32pm
Haole 1:
Oh boy, you did it now! You spilled the beans on the mastermind behind WP!
Aloha4aina
#52 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:40pm
this is an entertaining way to spend the night... just sit here watching posts come up. Right now there's three of us in one room on three different computers watching posts pop up.
#53 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 8:46pm
woah now you're really "well known"
#54 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:24pm
When I read this post the other day from the "all boats made in china" thread:
"Kai Bartlett was negotiating with us, we couldn’t afford his royalties he demanded of 17% of sales which is higher than what Michael Jordan or even Disney gets. Giblin got kicked out of the China factoryfor “spyingâ€, decided to grab Kai and Huki to duplicate our strategy of sharing costs and technologies among different boat builders. Giblin has his own factory, hired the English guy [name removed] that was caught stealing computer files and taking pictures and plans of our boats. We had NOTHING to do with all this. It was between the Chinese company and Giblin."
Name dropping. Not good. Not good. This is Kai Bartlett right? One of the "movers and shakers" of paddling in Hawaii right?
You give a guy enough rope...
Hey it's all good. Jose Conseco is still cool...I think?
#55 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 10:25pm
Brah WP/DQC you gottah learn when to keep your comments to your self. You're out there spreading everyones bussiness all over this site. You ever heard the saying if you piss in the wind it comes flying back into you face??? Man your looking pretty wet about right now. Rememebr this is Hawaii. We all try to show each other aloha and help each other out. When you cross that line you better be ready to back it up.
#56 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 10:59am
My bad man- I was quoting from http://www.ocpaddler.com/node/1284
#57 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 11:13am
I'm glad A4aina, Hapakid2, Jim, H20 are having a great time yukking it up "ganging" up on the same issues. You show your true colors. All I was asking was:
Physical Violence in Paddling is NOT GOOD for the sport - no matter WHO the person is
What do we do as a community to prevent such incidents from happening
And if it does happen, which entity should it be reported to ?
Or of course, we could all just SCRAP. Consensus so far is .... ? Don't talk about it.
Jim, you bring up a good point about "letting time heal", and just about true for everyone I know here but when someone has a stalker mentality, what can you do ? He cannot stand anyone challenging him when he wrong on an issue, just like now, pressuring everyone he knows to defend his physical violence, online and offline. I'm not alone in being "blacklisted" by this individual. I know of 2 other guys ( who also happen to have been Novice B paddlers under his coaching YEARS ago) that have to deal with the same shitty attitude. Coaches ( canoe club Presidents too ) should have a higher standard of behaviour than the rest, not LOWER.
And that is the issue. No names have been mentioned since Keizo took down the post. I agreed with Keizo that if he didn't want it on HIS site, its OK. But none of you are focusing on the issue of how physical altercations in paddling is not right. You choose to focus on the one bringing up the issue.
Have fun playing with each other, I've ran out of time to devote to such high pursuits, gotta go work.
#58 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 11:48am
WP:
If you go back and read the posts from everyone, they told you what you need to do. We all agreed that violence on the water is NOT good. We gave you suggestions on how to deal with it. That should have satisfied you and been done with. BUT, what is getting all of us pissed is because you keep bringing the issue up. For some reason, you want to have THE LAST WORD! You are saying now that he is stalking you? If he is, then calling the Police is the only thing you can do. Maybe having a camera to capture him following you would help.
Preventing incidents of violence can't be prevented unless you have a 300lb. mediator man who you will have to answer to if you get violent. Violence is not good in any sport, and I believe it's because personal feelings get in the way and emotions run high. Heck, you got violence between parents in a Little League Game!! You think he is now getting people to write on our forums? Don't you think you are now being a little paranoid? Who cares if his friends are now writing. It's an open forum. Everyone can speak their mind. Actually, it's your post that has brought me in and probably a lot more people, so Keizo, WP is increasing your online audience!! Should he be compensated for his hard work?
Coaches, Presidents, etc. should have a high standard of behavior toward everyone? It would be nice, but I have had a wonderful coach in the past who did not have a "high standard of behavior " for everyone. If I'm walking to the canoe, he yells "Where you think we going? Cruising? Get your a** in the boat!" When I stroke the canoe, he is pushing me with not so nice words, but you know what? I love him more for the fact that he is NOT good to me. He saw my potential and it took some lower standards to push me and make me better. Sorry WP, if you think coaches, presidents, etc. can behave nicely to everyone, you are living in a dreamland.
OK gotta go work!
Aloha4aina
#59 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 12:29pm
First off sorry DQC i get what your were trying to say. Dropping names is not a good to do. Just like what Ian Foo did to Kai and Mike on that article he wrote about China. WP we all know who you are and we really don't care buddy. What we all don't get is what do you want from us? To back you up because you're going to get your ass kicked? You must have done something before hand to trigger this man off. You only tell one side of the story. It takes two to tango. You already had problems with this man and now by posting this whole discussion on-line you're pretty much black listing yourself from a lot of paddlers on the Big Island. If it's life threating then call the cops. I do feel sorry for what has happend to you, but i'm telling you posting this whole discussion did'nt help you out one bit. If I was you just drop it apoliguies to the guy and move on. I'm sure this man does'nt want this whole thing to go any further then it has already gone. Sometimes it's better to turn the other cheek and walk away.
#60 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 1:33pm
WP:
I just left work to type this brain drain.
I love NFL games and they are often showing coaches reacting to plays on the field. They don't quite seem to be behaving in an appropriate behavior. They are yelling at their players, and you know what? Those teams kick a**!!
A civilized coach in sports? Hmmmm. Maybe you can start your own club, get your paddlers, and demonstrate to all of us the proper way to behave. That's putting words into action!!!
OK, back to work.
Aloha4aina
#61 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 3:35pm
Ian Foo, Please help me to understand somthing, so that we all may learn from it, what was going through your mind when you were sitting at your keyboard entering all that information for the world to read? was there an angry raging person taking full control of your mind? did you think twice what might happend to those guys you mentioned? did you think about the canoe club and all its members? did you think about the children that are committed to this club? how do you think they would feel if given this information? are you trying to use this incident to destroy the president and his club? A friend of mind that lives here in oahu has just notified me that he just receivied an email from you it sounds like the original post that started this whole mess, how far do you want to go with this? well , at this time of the year most locals try to absorb the holiday season, we try to be more loving to one another, we try to share everything we have to each other, we also need to live on the same planet, I dont like violence, I dont like arguments, and I dont like WAR! I hope you can answer the questions for all of us to learn from it.....H2O
#62 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 4:16pm
you're in a situation where you must solve this problem by YOURSELF with your ex-coach. A good and friendly talk with him (you know, like adults) at a good time at a good place (avoid the open ocean) or just paddle away, far away from him.
(you may not make fun of my english)
#63 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 4:54pm
Can someone from the Big Island please tell us why everyone hates Ian Foo so much? Just wondering!
#64 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:06pm
Regarding "THE POST". I'm just a stupid f*ckin haole paddler in the middle of the Arizona desert (don't ask). I don't know either of the guys involved. I don't know if the incident took place, and if it did, what actually went down and why. I don't know if either or both of them may or may not be total assholes or what their agendas are.
What I find interesting is that no one seems disturbed by the idea of violence between paddlers.
And yes, many thanks for this website.
#65 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:07pm
sorry Jim we don't want to behave and stoop down to his level.
It is very simple he doesn't have the MANA. Pake style you know what i mean (one for you three for me).
#66 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:48pm
Gotcha, dig deep.
#67 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:51pm
First off, I was bothered that the particular incident happened to WP but it was the manner by which he chose to parlay the story that made me question his real motives. The story stank of personal vendetta. When facts emerged from the other side we started to see the whole picture a little more.
I ask myself what's worse here. That some guy is a brute who resorts to physical threats (sounds like he didn't really follow through) OR some guy who has good writing skills dropping names and details that tarnish the reputation of known paddlers and an organization. How can one person feel victimized and expect us to have a rational discourse on violence when he is essentially doing the same thing? What should the community do about violence? Well, what should the community do about people who use a computer to make damaging statements?
Now the ID of WP is exposed and looking back at those other posts he's written, shiit man! I can't resepect a guy who airs everyody's business like a fricken dog with his head out the window!!
#68 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:01pm
I just want someone to respond to my "greatest paddlers" post. I pretty much have my Hawaiian paddlers narrowed down but I'd love to hear from Tahiti and Australia! I'd like to take it from the dawn of paddling onward.
#69 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:11pm
i know keizo deleted the post to prevent further drama, but in case those of you who didn't see the original post want to see what the fuss is about, do a google search for "ocpaddler kafoa" and click on the "CACHED" link for the first item that comes up... you can judge for yourself whether the original post was slimey.
sorry keizo, once it's out it's out
#70 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:53pm