What I learned as a Novice Paddler-

Along with the names of the parts of the canoes (Wa'a) a little bit about Hawaii Culture.

Here's something from Hawaii Revised Statutes about the Aloha Spirit:

[ァ5-7.5] "Aloha Spirit"

(a) "Aloha Spirit" is the coordination of mind and heart within each person.

It brings each person to the self. Each person must think and emote good feelings to others.

In the contemplation and presence of the life force, "Aloha", the following unuhi laula loa may be used:

"Akahai", meaning kindness, to be expressed with tenderness;

"Lokahi", meaning unity, to be expressed with harmony;

"Olu'olu", meaning agreeable, to be expressed with pleasantness;

"Ha'aha'a", meaning humility, to be expressed with modesty;

"Ahonui", meaning patience, to be expressed with perseverance.

These are traits of character that express the charm, warmth and sincerity of Hawaii's people.
It was the working philosophy of native Hawaiians and was presented as a gift to the people of Hawaii.

"Aloha" is more than a word of greeting or farewell or a salutation.
"Aloha" means mutual regard and affection and extends warmth in caring with no obligation in return.
"Aloha" is the essence of relationships in which each person is important to every other person for collective existence.
"Aloha" means to hear what is not said, to see what cannot be seen and to know the unknowable.

will the real WP step forward...

Submitted by Witless Projection on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 6:34pm



"Kukae", it means poop.


#1 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 6:39pm


Love your name!
It is great that you pointed out Hawaiian words and what they mean.
I like Ha'aHa'a (humility) because being humble is a trait that I think every paddler should strive for.
I know of a GREAT paddler who wins races and when congratulated, smiles and says,
"I did ok" and then hugs me (the paddler at the back) and says I did a great job! It just gave
me so much respect for him as a paddler and person. The other WP is only talking about
"ME, ME, ME" and that is why I think he gets no respect from the other posters in the forum.

goto, you made my night! It's good to get a laugh when you have tense forums!!

Aloha4aina


#2 Mon, 11/27/2006 - 9:11pm


Witless projection, perhaps the greatest handle ever!

On a side note, I cant help but notice the curious appropriation, or shall I say misappropriation, of the definition of the “aloha spirit” by foreigners, like the other WP, when describing appropriate social norms in Hawai`i. We are so lucky that we can have foreigners dictate and determine the proper application of Hawaii’s cultural values.


#3 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:54am


First off I apologize if my interpretation as a "foreigner" of the "aloha spirit" put off anyone who read my posting on the Thank You thread. It was certainly not meant to do so. In fact, I used Keizo's quote about demonstrating the aloha spirit from his earlier posting. It was my understanding that he is indeed Hawaiian, but only on temporary leave while studying in the frigid woods of upstate New York.

I find the responses to my posting to be very interesting. No wonder WP gets so frustrated in these interactions. Once again, the point of a kind and welcome environment for all paddlers was lost. The point about not tolerating violence in the sport was lost. It all becomes about identifying WP, and WP being a newcomer. I also find it interesting and sad that the conversation turned toward economics. Is it indeed a truism that unless a person is a Hawaiian local there is no reason to introduce them to OC paddling and help them learn the sport unless the motive is purely economic gain? Is that the reason that on 3 different trips to Hawaii over a 3 year period of time, no one would help me and my family get into a canoe? Is kindness and going out of the way for a Haole totally tied to monetary gain in Hawaii?

I personally do not believe that this is true for the majority of the people that I have come into contact with in Hawaii over the last 25 plus years. For the most part, locals have always been very nice to me and my family. However, maybe WP is actually on to something in some of his postings on the latest incident. Maybe, there is a group of paddlers that actually don’t want the sport to spread to newcomers or outsiders. It would be sad if this were true. In thinking back to articles that I have read in Kanu Culture, or PP, or discussions on this very forum, I have seen underlying currents running in the same vein. There have been posting from Australia and Hawaii voicing frustration at an elitist attitude and the lack of ability to spread the sport to a broader base. There have been articles and interviews with the various governing bodies talking about frustrations over growing the sport, pushing it out to more people, and rigid or unwelcoming attitudes in various paddling communities around the world. It was reported that the top Hawaiian teams did not bother to show up at this year’s Moloka'i awards banquet after they lost to the Tahitian teams.

So, maybe WP is on to a sad fact here. Maybe, there is a group of paddlers that do not want an open inclusive sport for all comers to your beautiful island. I also found it interesting that everyone jumped to the immediate conclusion that Ian and WP are one in the same. Is that because he is a boat manufacture and could have an economically driven agenda for me and my family? If so, what about Karel, Karel Jr., Kai, and the other manufacturers? Why would they not be suspects as well? Would they not have shown me the same kindness, and spent the time and energy to introduce me the sport and their paddling friends? Why could WP not be a paddle store owner or sales associate? They should also have an economic agenda. In fact, after having visited and/or called a number of paddling stores over the years, the owners or sales associates were generally very nice and helpful. They had every opportunity to make money off of me by introducing me to the sport and taking me out on an OC. They could have sold a canoe or two, and gear to me and my family. However, here is an interesting twist, none of them were willing to take me out and help me learn unless I laid out a few thousand dollars to buy a canoe and a paddle first. If I found that I did not like the boat or the sport, they were kind enough to offer to resell the boat for me.

So, again, maybe WP is on to something here. It is not necessarily about economic gain, could it be about an attitude of keeping Haole like me out of the sport until we somehow magically earn our way in to the community? I did not think that this was true until this last discussion took so many odd turns over the last few weeks. I had such a great and welcoming experience with WP and his friends that I just kept chalking up the aforementioned readings as growing pains for a sport that is getting more and more international attention. However, when these posting turned to pot shots at WP and, glossed over the violence and outsider issue, I began to wonder and think more about my own experience and readings. Change is difficult. It is more difficult for some than others. Growing a sport when there is a shortage of equipment is difficult. When a long time local paddler has to wait for 6 to 9 months for a new canoe, it is hard to appreciate or welcome new paddlers entering the sport. But it is a great sport with noble and historic past that should only better the communities that it reaches. Violence and isolationism in the sport would be a great shame and only tarnish its athletic and spiritual past. I am sure that the vast majority of paddlers do indeed believe that this is true. It would be a serious bummer to let a handful of bad apples do such a thing to such a cultural treasure.


#4 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 10:47am


Haole1, you make some insightful posts. Quickly, I wanted note that Hawaiian is pretty much universally accepted within Hawaii as meaning Native Hawaiian. I'm local to Hawaii, but unfortunately not Hawaiian. Sorry to go off topic, this is just a minor pet peeve I always correct when people call me Hawaiian.


#5 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 11:48am


Haole1,
Yes, there's a certain anti-outsider vibe sometimes in Hawai'i, which is perfectly understandable considering Hawaiian history. I think just about everywhere has this anti-outsider thing to some extent. I think you have to ask yourself why almost every person from Hawai'i who has commented on this issue seem to not like WP. It's probably not a coincidence or an anti-WP conspiracy. He must have done something to earn this enmity. As an asshole who has experienced things like this first-hand, I gotta say this behavior didn't just spring up out of nowhere. It takes alot to piss someone off enough that they want to attack you mid-paddle! The Hawaiian paddling community will surely let you know if you lack Ha'a ha'a!


#6 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 11:49am


Total net proceeds from my OC racing in the last 15 years comes out to a grand monetary total in the area of about -$10,000.00 to -$12,000.00 (estimate only... and yes, those are minus signs in front of the dollar amount) So, not only will I never show anyone else how to paddle, but I will kick your ass and steal your money if you even look at my boat with any hint of curiousness in your eyes...

Just because you expect something to be a certain way, doesn't mean it will be. Especially if you're new, and are basing those expectations on everything you don't know, but think you do.

There are at least two sides to every story - add to that an infinite number of possible misunderstandings, and the sum should be equal to somewhere between a curt and condescending forum post, and an open water beat-down (deserved, or not - whomever or whatever is at fault)

I DO NOT condone violence on or off the water, and in reality I WOULD take a stranger out for a paddle or two. But I'm not going to pass judgement or speculate about anyone's actions for a situation that I wasn't there for.

Some people want to cross the line, and no matter what you say or do they will always cross it - that's their kuleana. Let 'em stew in it.

That's about all the seriousness I've got in me for now. Enjoy that sh*t... you won't see it again for a while.


#7 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 1:17pm


Jim, I have never ever done anything to my attacker, I always call it as I see it. When he acts badly to me I tell him to stop. And that pisses some people off. I'm too old to live a life of "pretense" and pander to phony niceties. It is also naive to think that there isn't a "paddling clique" in Hawaii. You don't know this person who attacked me and if you lived on the Big Island you'll know that it takes very little to set him off. The only difference is I am not willing to be bullied, and I told him so. Being older than him, I feel his constant threat of "I'm going to kick your ass" childish.

The one thing I did learn from martial arts as a youth many, many years ago is what my master taught me that I never ever forgot. The best fight to win is not to have fought at all. And if you do have to fight, it better be to defend yourself in a life and death situation. If you act as a bully, you are a bully.

And there is an English saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never do" - So if folks on the forum cannot tolerate civil discourse with words, what do you do ? FIGHT ?? Good, that was OK in High School, we're all too old for this kind of crap.

BTW _ Witless Projection is a great parody !! - it is very funny

But look at the content of his post - Is anyone taking potshots practicing any of those principles, anti - outsider or not ?


#8 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 12:04pm


You write almost like WP. Makes me think that you are one and the same. I haven't see any other posts of support for WP until you came on. But I can't tell, so let's move on.

The canoe club I belonged to (me being Hawaiian) had me as the minority. When another Hawaiian came along, we were thankful that our number increased to two and so on. We got along with non-Hawaiians in the club, local or non-local, because we enjoyed paddling and we knew eachother on and off the water. If there were any clashing, it was due to personalities, not because of paddlers trying to keep the sport inclusive to themselves.

I think what the real issue is how you get along within the club. If you cannot get along with your fellow paddlers, the friction will be more about you as a person, not about you as a paddler. You could be the best paddler in the State, but if you can't work with your crew on a personal level, the crew won't do well.

WP is stating that the accused is just a violent person that has selected him at random to be the victim. I think he is not telling the whole story.

Paddling is International already, just not at Olympic standards (someday). I think it's idiotic to say that a group of paddlers in Hawaii is forming a "gang" to keep people from doing their "native" sport. Come on!!!!

Too bad it was only WP you met, there are a lot of people in Hawaii who would have helped you and took you on the water. You just weren't as fortunate coming from England. Is that where you said you're from?

Aloha4aina


#9 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 2:06pm


"could it be about an attitude of keeping Haole like me out of the sport until we somehow magically earn our way in to the community?"

Sheesh, another one. All about me, me, me. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I've ever seen one.


#10 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 3:46pm


I am pretty certain that WP and Haole1 are husband and wife; Haole 1 pretending to be east coast supporter. Give it a rest already


#11 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 4:08pm


AND THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!


#12 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:26pm


i would just like to share the fact that i am haole...and i never had any of the above mentioned problems of haole1 or WP1. Did I somehow slip through the cracks and not get ignored or beaten?

Like others also mentioned above...observe those around you, then act. Don't let your decisions be based on what others can help you with. I find it hard to believe that it would take three years to find someone to answer questions about paddling. Haole1 implies that every other paddler except WP1 is an assh0le who will ignore an outsider of any race. On the internet alone there are plenty of contact names as well as numbers where you can find a demo boat. Did you ever post on this forum looking for a boat? Ever go to a paddling store? Look one up in the phone book? Search Craigslist? The list goes on... I was NEVER an untra compettitive paddler, yet somehow people always let me borrow boats for hawaii kai runs, time trials, Kanaka races, etc. Go figure...

Perhaps people are just worrying way too much about "being accepted" and making an impact on everyone else. Go about your business, tread lightly (no matter what race you are), and like others said, smile. Behave with respect and you will be accepted...and live to tell about it.

Haole1, the very fact that you choose to be called "haole" lends one to believe that you want to be separate from others and enjoy your position as an outsider. Have you made a determination that this is why you have never found anyone to serve your intrests? Is this an indication of how you choose to live? Perhaps take a moment to look in a dictionary before choosing such name. Or perhaps you have, and thus the choice.

From Wikipidia (not necessarily considered THE hawaiian source, but the first thing i found on google)

haole-
Haole, in the Hawaiian language, means "foreign" or "foreigner"; it can be used in reference to people, plants, and animals.

ah well, screw it, i'm just talking to myself allready...let the flaming begin all you unknown people. like one of my friends said, "the internet is a great place to masquerade as expert on anything, especially when you can hide behind anonymity"

as a reminder, see the sig below...it is deadly serious.


#13 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:35pm


Once again, dropping names here is getting old and disrespectful.

BTW, how does a rookie East Coast paddler know who's present at the Molokai Awards Banquet? I'm a haole paddler and I don't come into this sport thinking I'm going to change the structure of everything. I had to pay my dues and work my ass off to gain respect like any other sport. My local paddling 'bruddahs' treat me and protect me like I'm a family member. If I were to get into a confrontation they would back me up 100%. So don't drop the race card.


#14 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:37pm


wow, no mercy yeah... I didn't read so much into Haole1's comments. In any case, welcome to the forum Haole1.


#15 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 5:53pm


holy smokes, this is the best ever. never seen so many posts on OCpaddler. i admit, i too have no life whatsoever.


#16 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:11pm


this is turning into some like myspace drama or something haha well at leat were all busy now...


#17 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:16pm


if this were myspace i would have something in my personal info llike hapakid has on his myspace page.

check out his about me section...


#18 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:43pm


Keizo

Thanks for your compliment. Also, my apologize for the mistake and thanks for the clarification. I wrongly assumed that since you were from the Hilo area that you were Hawaiian. I understand the difference between Hawaiian and a local, and I appreciate the difference. Maybe, your comment underlies a better understanding for this topic than is anyone's right to know. Thanks and good luck with finals.


#19 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 6:51pm


I really enjoy the sarcasm, and the repeated attempts to bring the topic to a less intense level. This last one was great!! Thanks for the honesty. I really do believe that the incident happened. No one else needs to do so. However, standing up for a bit of seriouseness and saying that you do not condone violence on the water is much appreciated. I think that with what I have spent on paddling, we should get together and cry. Then, we should get most of the other paddlers together and have a huge party to celebrate the fact that we did it for the sport and the commaraderie. Of course, the celebration should include copious amounts of booze and food.


#20 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:04pm


Other than wikipedia..(thanks btw) i thought literally ha ole meant no breath. maybe that's why you're always out of breath?

its fun being a novice..at everything


#21 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:14pm


after looking at his page i can only guess which section concerns u haha...


#22 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:21pm


seeing as i'm an old man...mmmmm yummy


#23 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:27pm


Aloha4aina

Thank you for actually trying to stay on the topic and offer encouraging words. This is much different from your earlier chain of post and much appreciated. Yes, you are correct about the Olympic dream. I was going to also include that but decided that it was a much larger topic that would distract from this topic. However, I hope that you understand that I never said that "paddlers in Hawaii is forming a gang to keep people from doing their native sport". I would never speak that way. Plus, that is not at all what the intention of my words meant.

Maybe, you should re-read my post and then get back to me. By the way, you have consistently been one of the most negative posters on this site. I am nothing more than an outsider, a Haole, that has spent a ton of time on your beautiful island. I love the place. That is the reason that I had to chime in. It is such a shame that the topics of violence and an outsider got lost. I believe that the vast majority of paddlers in Hawaii do believe in inclusiveness and non-violence. Remember, I am just a Haole.

Your being Hawaiian does not mean that you are a "newcomer" to the island. You have not stepped up for non-violence in the sport, and you are a local. You have talked about inclusiveness. Thank you. However, I spend a fair amount of time on the Big Island, and WP was the first to respond to my numerous requests. Please, do not kid yourself into thinking that I did not ask many times.

For you in particular, I have little time. I have read your many posts. You have another issue all together which is unknown and sad to me. You are always in the fray and attacking. Is that a fun and inclusive place to be? I have the utmost respect and appreciation for the Hawaiian culture. I think that outrigger canoeing is a great, spiritual, and noble sport that Hawaiian's should be proud of in every way. The very spreading of the sport and its meaning can only improve the lives of its particpants.


#24 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 7:52pm


Aloha4Aina, don't take that crap. It's pretty obvious to me that Haole1 and WP is the same writer. You really gave it away on that last one,dude.


#25 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:01pm


from the Pukui-Elbert dictionary:

haole (nvs): white person, American, Englishman, Caucasian; formerly, any foreigner; foreign, introduced, of foreign origin; white (as in pigs. Malo said "haole" was originally the name for pigs that were all white, but perhaps he meant pigs of foreign introduction).

"ha 'ole" can also mean "without life", a reference to the pale skin of the dead.

I read in a scholarly account somewhere that the ancient Hawaiians conveyed the term on early European explorers not because of the colour of their skin, but by their actions. The ancients, after landing from a canoe voyage, would kneel to the ground and breathe (ha) the life from the land. They were surprised that the Europeans did not do this.


#26 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:04pm


Haole 1:

Could you stop writing a journal and write a short story so it can't be confusing and misunderstood?
You keep saying that you're just a Haole. What the heck does that mean?
No, I'm not the most negative poster. You should read ALL the posts and see that I am one of the mildest and then you can get back to me.

Aloha4aina


#27 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:07pm


It seems that my postings are indeed contriversial. I have a bad habit of selecting my words intentionally, and it would be more productive and much appreciated if they were read more carefully. For some reason this topic seems to bring up many very unrelated subjects with the very discussion of what should be a simple topic about non-acceptance of violence and non-inclusiveness in the sport. Could it be that I have hit on a delicate subject?


#28 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:11pm


Haole1 & WP:

Do you need a bandaid? It appears you've shot yourself in the foot!!!

Aloha4aina


#29 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:12pm


Wow, I feel so betrayed, I totally thought I was talking to two different people. Party Foul! You are one crazy buggah!!Great theatre, though.


#30 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:18pm


Aloha4aina, JC9_0, and Jim

Thanks for the response. I am going to bed now. I have to ask you to please read my earlier postings. I do not think that asking for an inclusive sport that is non-violent is a really big issue. To me it is a no-brainer type of topic. If someone wants to participate in a sport, they should be welcome. They should be welcome to learn, particpate, and to be instructed. It is pretty simple. They should not be comfronted by voilence and exclusion. Simple. So, the three of you keep moving around the topic of the dicussion. You bang your drums and shake you magic sticks. Yet, none of you have anything to offer to the topic at hand. You can find comfort in eachother. I think that the vast majority of the paddleing communitee does not believe that your non-inclusiveness is right.

So, would you actually like to be constructive in this conversation? Can you do that?

Have a nice evening to all. I am sorry that my some particpants can not keep up with the content or intent.


#31 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:43pm


Haole, the reason why this particular thread has so many different offshoots is that every single point you try to convey is laden with ignorant assumptions about the culture of Hawaii and paddlers in Hawai`i.

Furthermore, your insistence that the members on this forum decry violence calls for an idiotic generalization. It is equivalent to me asking for the members of this forum to decry evil. What the f--k?
Dumbass.

Lastly, I am not gonna make said generalization. Sometimes violence is necessary, and sometimes people deserve what they get. And if WP does not possess enough self-awareness and personal reflection of his actions and attitude, then he should leave; for his respect for our values and cultural norms obviously don't mesh with his self serving masturbatory view of the way things ought to be.

Down with evil!

Down with evil!


#32 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 8:50pm


I'm a haole and this is what I've observed since living here in HI. People have their problems but that exists everywhere you go! I was new and eager to fit in. Some of the locals were stand-offish even scary! Man I didn't know that samoans hawaiians and tongans could be monstrously huge but it was import ant for me to gain their trust and learn the ropes. Down the road these guys were inviting me to their baby luaus and weddings and it's been a real blessing to live here. I can say that it's not because you're haole that you're treated meanly. It's because you're someone who's fresh off the boat trying to reinvent the wheel here when all you really have to do is learn to adapt and earn your keep. If I constantly pulled the race card I would only be a prisoner to it. I now notice people who come here acting fricken aggressive, getting confrontational and technical and I immediatley know they're going to be the biggest whiners. Even other haoles won't like them! I strongly suggest watching the movie "North Shore". Learn some basic etiquette 101 when living in the islands. That part where he said I gotta go to the Police! Those guys stold my stuff! Turtle or Chandler basically said brah just shut the F*** UP!!


#33 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:24pm


For the record, it's incredibly unlikely Haole1 is the same person. I dunno why everyone's so against the guy, I thought he had some thoughtful things to say.


#34 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:14pm


ALoha Keizo, great job, a little bummed because I spend the last 30 minutes writing a post, gave in and wrote a post with some information on how to handle on the water violence and harassment and during that time, you closed the post......

Wasn't going to however one of the posts from Dig:

"sorry Jim we don’t want to behave and stoop down to his level.
It is very simple he doesn’t have the MANA. Pake style you know what i mean (one for you three for me)."

caught my attentions because isn't racism "stooping down to his level"? What does "PAKE STYLE""ONE FOR YOU THREE FOR ME" Mean cause I am chinese and that is offensive especially to blame anyone's misfortunes or behaviors on their race. Race has nothing to do with anything.


#35 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:54pm


like I said earlier Haole1 is WP's wife- this whole play is acted out for nothing more than sympathy and PR.
Bottom line- many respected paddlers have had run ins with this individual- it is time for him to understand how warped his thinking is. Don't think for a minute you can come over to Hawaii and think you can out fox everyone- Hawaii works off of respect,patience,trust, and being humble. Hawaii is about community,family, culture. I've spent far too many days listening to you yell at your kids down at the pier and pool.- you talk about Aloha, well guess what, I'll be watching closely.


#36 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:58pm


you have beaten me haole1, you are truely the most superior human being. how dare i try to compare to your superior writing and intellect. i have truely shamed myself, my family, and all haole people. all that i have posted is a meaningless jumble of words. my apoligies for wasting everyones time. i thought this was an interesting discussion, but have been made to realize that i am merely a pawn in haole1's grand scheme to prove his/her superior intellect.

i fall at your feet

insert weeping, moaning, and grovelling noises

and beg for your forgiveness.


#37 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 10:16pm


Hey gang, maybe this has nothing to do with race, being haole, hawaiian, local whatever. Maybe it has to do with YOU. Don't blame race culture or skin color, maybe its the person as an individual.

If you believe that where ever you go you are going to be recieved with open arms, told all the tricks of the trade, given the secrets, then brother no wonder you have problems. You gotta earn the right to be part of the group. This is true with any sport. You think I can walk onto an NFL team and be recieved and accepted as the new QB? Dude, get real.

poopoo


#38 Tue, 11/28/2006 - 11:13pm


DigDeep went too far with his "Pake Style" comment. Its no different than White Supermacists and their "Jew" comments ? What you are guys doing, Hawaiian Supremacists? I know lots of true Hawaiians, no such attitude. You are doing this in the name of being a Hawaiian rights defender. If so, you are doing your fellow Hawaiians great harm.
NumeroOuno must make a definite distinction between talking and raising your hand to hit someone. Once do that, you are automatically in the wrong. Violence is never necessary, especially not in paddling, There is no excuse for that ever, and for you to justify it by claiming someone deserves is very wrong
Aloha4aina, I have personally seen practices by the paddler WP is referring to on the Kona pier. Racial epithets were constantly used for no apparent reason other than to humiliate novice paddlers. My wife and I who both in our sixties found it both difficult to listen to puzzling to see as a motivational tool. When talking out of the canoe caucasian women were routinely referred to as haole b***hes this and that. Maybe in this era of gangter rap, its alright thing to do. Have you ever seen Nappy Napoleon coach, he never shouts. Great coaches and leaders never have to raise their voice, people listen in rapt attention because they command respect. I hope as you get better as a paddler you find other forms of coaching.
H2O, DQC and Jim all seem to find comfort that being nasty on this forum is no worse than, I quote
"That some guy is a brute who resorts to physical threats (sounds like he didn’t really follow through) "
Please do not shame yourself by making such inappropriate comparisons. Open forums are essentially ... OPEN. Physically attacking someone is not the same level of behaviour. When you cross the line, you cross it. As those in my generation say "you cannot un-ring a bell"


#39 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 12:42am


Hey Hawaiian, you must have a lot of time on your hands to be tracking someone that closely and being the sole defender of our Hawaiian borders. You should practice what you spew son.


#40 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 12:53am


The general demeanor (as opposed to content) of your posts seem reasonable on the surface, but you lose credibility when you make your "but I'm just a haole" epithets. Such comments might seem apologetic or humble in a superficial way, but are usually filled with negative connotations directed everywhere else but inwards. It leaves one wondering whether you had a smirk on your face when you typed it.


#41 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 5:17am


GOM - Well said in both posts.

Good morning to everyone. I have to say that I find this whole discussion for the last couple of weeks to be very interesting. It is amazing how posts are missinterpreted and wrongly thought tangents take on a whole life of their own.

Just a couple of things for the record, and then I have to get to work.

First, I was never talking about racism. I was talking about inclusiveness. I am fortunate to have never had to deal with the nasty issue at all. I am about as white bread as it gets. People would refer to me as your basic WASP. I actually have a real hard time understanding racism at all. It seems to me to be a big waste of time and energy. If you want to be successful in life, you should draw on as many different ideas and perspectives as possible. Getting bogged down in race is a pretty silly and pointless thing to do.

Second, I have never personally had any negative issues in Hawaii with the people. As I have said several times, everyone there whether local or Hawaiian has been very nice to me and my family. My only issue ever has been my inability to get out in an OC until MP took me out. I did not blame anybody. I did not get mad about it. Heck, being a true believer in capitalism, I always just chalked it up to supply and demand. There are more local folks that want to paddle than there are boats. So why help out a guy who is just on the island for a couple weeks a year. I never thought that it was meanspirited until all of this started up a couple weeks ago. Then, the responses to the various postings got me to think that there might have been more to it. I discussed this at legnth in my earlier posting on this chain.

Third, I was nothing but grateful for WP sharing the OC experience with me and my wife, and my family. Sorry Konapaddler, I am a guy and have a wife and child. It is not the other way around. WP's wife would probably be pretty upset at the comparison as my beard and 25 years of to much drinking and eating would not compare favorably to her physique.

Fourth, I find it fairly entertaining that some of the people posting on this forum are taking shots at me for writing well, or constructing thoughtful postings. It is certainly easy to lash out in a mindless way. However, a thoughtful discussion takes a little more effort but is much more rewarding for all of the participants. It is really unfortunate that the original topic resulted in racial, economic, and educational jabs. Again, to my original 2 postings, maybe WP is on to something broader here about a few bad apples in the paddling community. By the way, you guys forgot to tell me that my spelling is terrible which is actually very true much to my parents dismay.

Lastly, I want to thank the majority of the posters on this chain who actually did address what I thought was the original topic of inclusiveness in the sport and non-violence in the sport. I am glad to hear that most paddlers do indeed believe that both are wrong. It will now be interesting to learn how the various OCC's deal with poor sportsmanship in their individual clubs. I suspect that the majority of them have been frowning upon it always. From WP's and others' posts, it appears that it is not to far afield to believe that the original incident did happen. At the very least, the offenders training or "coaching" practices seem to be well documented. Maybe, it is time for a new President of that OCC. Maybe not. After all, it is a private club. No one forces the members to belong and support the administration. The members are there, or not, by choice. They can leave, or vote in new officers. Fortunately for the locals, there are a number of really good alternatives available to them.

Be well and have a wonderful Holiday season and a Very Merry Christmas.


#42 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 5:16am


Violence is never necessary,eh? I'd hate to see you in 1776 or 1941. Grumpy, maybe you should consider why no one likes this guy on the Big Island. That being said, I don't condone the alleged violence against Foo. As for coaching, there are 101 different styles, some of which include verbal abuse. Have you ever heard of Vince Lombardi, Bill Parcells or Gail Berengue? I don't know why I'm responding to you, you're probably just another fabrication anyway. Oh yeah, in Hawai'i there's tons of light-hearted verbal taunting that may be ethnically based. We like to keep our racism in the open, unlike Amerikkka, where the politically correct white elitists still benefit from systematic exploitation of less fortunate minorities. Brah, if the Kai Opua/Tui Tonga guys don't like you, you must be a total prick.


#43 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 7:09am


Hey Grumpy! Shame myself? No, I think WP already did that when he decided to come here and explicitly drop names. If you look on past posts of his it seems to be his M.O. (Karel, Kai, Mike Giblin, Kafoa, Lyle) He basks in the center of controversy! One man in particular came on here expressing his dissatisfaction with a boat and WP did not hesitate to give the juicy details with the guys real name! Since you thought it was so necessary to bring up this era of Gangsta Rap let me continue by teaching an old dog some new tricks here. In the 'internet era,' dropping names like this isn't acceptebale either. Yes it's an open forum but there are still norms to follow on the internet. Maybe read "Internet for Dummies" to learn more about internet customs. It's quite a long ways from pony express eh?


#44 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 7:34am


Don't have a lot of time on my hands, just able to weed out the goods from the bads.


#45 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 8:26am


Hi GOM:
You have me confused. You claim that you have personally heard people calling Novice's haole b***? I have paddled for 17 years for various clubs and I have NEVER heard that. I wonder who that could be? If you were by WP, obviously he is bad luck!

Coaches all have different styles of coaching. What I consider a GREAT coach is someone who can take a group of 6 nobodys and turn them into Champions. I believe WP was on a Novice A crew that won States under the direction of the "violent" coach he complains about.

Nappy is truly a wonderful man and one who I have the utmost respect for. I believe he came all the way from a NZ trip last year to support the "violent" coach and his annual festival for youth and adults (saw it on the Internet).
The fact that the top paddlers come to supprt the "vc" makes me think he has earned a lot of respect and friendship because of the person he is. Who is WP? Obviously someone who does not have the same respect and friendship.

Bottom line of the supposed attack: None of us saw it, WP can't prove it, and him and Haole1 are using way too much Internet space to explain the unexpainable.

Aloha4aina


#46 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 8:41am


Jim

Do you know why nobody likes WP? Let's do a little history (found out through the paddle grapevine). When he first came to the islands, he did indeed make many friends and he was welcomed into the paddling community. As time went on, people began to see his true colors and that he was not a genuine and honest person. His friends began to drop off and before you knew it, he was by himself (aside from customers).

I heard from those WP mentioned in his attack that he just did not listen that day when they told him to go his own way. All they wanted to do was their training program. WP called it secret training because he was not able to see what they were doing. I believe he followed and irritated them and I don't believe that he was attacked 4 times. No marks? If someone came at me 4 times, I think I would have the indentation of a paddle on me. (I bruise easlily).

I don't want to make it too long as the other 2 posters, I think I gave you a good overview.

Aloha4aina


#47 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 8:59am


GrumpyOldMan,

What do you think of MY posts? I only come here to read replies and comments on ME - it satisfies my hubris. I read what you wrote about everyone else, but I don't get it since I don't pay attention to what anyone besides ME has to say. So come on - write something interesting - write about goto.

I LOVE ME!


#48 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 10:35am


On another note Grumpy don't assume the internet is used only as a way to express ourselves on an 'open forum.' There are boundaries on the internet too. You are familiar with bells so maybe the terms 'sexual predator' or 'hacker' may or may not ring of few for you. There are boundaries on the internet that get crossed when some naive 15 year old girl puts personal information for some sexual predator to come knocking. That is the key word with all of this, personal information

Violence while unacceptable is a gray matter. It's unrealistic to assume that all people will exercise restraint and be civilized about things. Come on, do you think that in this world, people will not react to constant taunting and antagonization? We see it here on OC! The 'perpetrator' and several others are sick of WP and whatever the heck he's done so things came to a head on that 'day in question.' WP, finally sick and tired of the perpetrator and his ol' friend, came on here and crossed some boundaries himself--like he has done here before about other well known paddlers on this very site. What does it imply when he constantly has to make comparisons about his boats and what Kai Bartlett did or what Karel Sr has done? These statements can potentially affect their businesses. It's safe to say that we don't know who we're dealing with in this world so it's best not to antagonize people cause half of them could care less about kicking our butts.

Ask yourself if you've been living ON the rock or UNDER it. Boundaries whether it's through violence or public shaming on the internet for the world to see is not cool. Like I said, I sided with WP but through this site alone, I see why people coulld care less for him.

I've also been to the Tui Tonga website and schooled myself by asking a few friends here. Many of them said it's not only this guy that runs the show. They have top paddlers and coaches who put in a lot of effort for the community there. So by WP resorting to defaming this guy it trickles down to the club AND the community. What good did that do?


#49 Wed, 11/29/2006 - 11:07am


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