should children under 18 race the molokai channel well i am under 18 i am just 16 but i want to race the molokai channel with my father but i cant becasue of my age
Submitted by hawaiian on Wed, 03/07/2007 - 8:22am
should children under 18 race the molokai channel well i am under 18 i am just 16 but i want to race the molokai channel with my father but i cant becasue of my age
Submitted by hawaiian on Wed, 03/07/2007 - 8:22am
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If they're capable, definitely yes. It should be the paddler and coach's call. How do you know if they're capable? Just like everyone else...you look at how they hold up in the long distance training and races leading up to Molokai.
I'm sure this rule is for liability but I don't think the logic behind holds up very well. It seems like the much greater risks are the crews that show up with little or no experience. Most kids that would commit to all the distance training come some type of surfing/swimming/paddling background and are much more fit than most people in the race.
I say let the coach, parents, and kid decide and not some arbitrary rule that probably does more harm to getting kids interested in paddling than prevent lawsuits.
#1 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 10:48am
Absolutely kids under 18 should be able to race the Molokai channel . Long as everyone has a good chaseboat driver and parental consent there should be no problem.
#2 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 11:21am
There was at least one group of high school boys that paddled Molokai last season, and there was a huge issue about whether they should be ineligible to paddle the high school season because of it. Something about the fact that there was a cash prize, no special waiver for minors excluding them from the cash prize (thereby maintaining their "amateur" status -- like there's "professional" paddling in Hawaii), and something about the beer sponsors or something... Basically, a bunch of adults were mad that the kids had paddled against their advice, so they decided to try to punish them by not letting them paddle for their high schools. Or at least that's the story I heard! :)
#3 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 12:20pm
I believe there is currently a waiver process to allow for younger paddlers. If a teenager can do the solo, they should be all right for the Molokai Race. Years ago when I paddled it first as a 16 year old there wasn't a rule. What happened in the next few years was a number of very young not experienced enough for the channel kids showed up to race for some of the smaller clubs. That was not a good direction for the race to go, and for liability purposes they had to institute the rule.
#4 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 12:36pm
funny that the eligibility issue should come up again. What if the kids had won money? Should they be allowed to race with other kids still? I know at least one paddler that won money in races outside of the ILH and managed to race this entire season. Should that person have been allowed to race? Does it matter?
The only possible gripe I can see with this scenario, is if an entire crew from one school does the race. This would pretty much give a program several months of extra practice together before the upcoming season. That could lead to an unfair advantage...
#5 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 12:59pm
From a long term athlete development perspective and for the physiological well being of junior paddlers, I would have to say no.
Every other long distance sport out there limits the ages at which participants can move up to the open class distances. Do juniors race Ironman triathlons? Or run marathons? Do they do 200 km bike races like the pros?
I am sure some juniors out there are super fit, fitter than 90% of the adults who do the race. However, being fit and being ready for the training needed to do a very long distance event without risking repetitive strain or overuse injuries are very different. For young paddlers still growing and maturing it would pose a risk. Who decides if that risk is enough to set a minimum age? The race organizers could. The sport governing body definitely.should.
The question of how hard to train juniors is a debate that has been around as long as people have trained for sport. The question to ask is what happens to juniors who do paddle the long distance events when they are 14, 15, 16, ... vs those who wait until they are 19, 20, 21,... Do we want a fast junior who may burn out after 2-3 years due to injuries or a paddler who does this as a lifestyle choice?
Yes, there are a few exceptions to every rule; Karel Jr being a prime example. But what about the average junior? Are the junior coaches involved skilled enough to do what is best for the long term good of the paddler? Can these coaches help the junior paddler balance the media and peer pressure associated with a Moloka'i crossing vs their health?
Kimo pointed out a great counterpoint to this; what about poorly trained adults? Well, they are adults and can theoretically make informed decisions for themselves, where the juniors may not be prepared enough to make that choice and the parents, coaches and event organizers need to.
My thoughts.
#6 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 2:05pm
The Queen Liliuokalani Races used to allow paddlers under 18 in the 18 mile iron race on Saturday. This age group consistently had the highest percentage of participants requiring medical attention after or during the race.
As pointed out previously, there will always be exceptions, and not all youth paddlers will require extra attention. It should probably be left up to the race organizers, parents, and coaches to make the decision on an individual basis.
#7 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 3:44pm
There definately needs to be a waiver process for exceptional individuals. AlanC, are there any injuries that might result from paddling too much as junior that don't effect more mature paddlers or are overuse injuries the same regardless of age? What types of injuries do you see among paddlers? I've heard of some lower back/hip problems resulting fom oc-1. Have you heard of anything like that?
#8 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 4:19pm
hey.. wasn;t Nappy underage in his first Molokai? anyone know?
legal issues aside, I echo the sentiment about good coaching and lots of support for this demographic.. we should encourage this participation. after all, we're not getting any younger......
aloha,
Roscoe
#9 Wed, 03/07/2007 - 7:50pm
Everybodys
"under age" when they begin to dream big dreams. Under 18 paddlers should be allowed to attempt the race across the Kaiwi Channel. It doesnt matter wether or not they make it across on the first try.#10 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 5:39am
"It doesnt matter wether or not they make it across on the first try."
interesting, sort of a trial by fire kind of thing. those who can't make it are just left behind. survival of the fittest, that's what i always say!
#11 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 6:47am
well....if the over age can paddle than the under age should be able to paddle the channel too!!....go for it....
#12 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 8:49am
How young is too young? How old is too old?
#13 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 9:24am
Hawaiian,
I hate to be the one to give you some crappy news. But last season my club allowed a crew of 4 under 18 in all the distances races. We pleaded with OHCRA, to allow them in the Molokai, they agreed, but with a week left till race. Waviers, Doctors concent, the whole nine yards. IT was close. But they got to compete. And they did well. They were mixed in with more experienced paddlers.
Well after the big race OHCRA came up with some guide lines. And all the membership clubs voted 15-1, NOT TO ALLOW under 18 paddlers in the Molokai. Which to me is bogus, becuse were not chumbs. They all paddle HS, Kanaka Ikaika, and OHCRA. LANIKAI also had a paddler, in the race. DON'T give up, you never know till you try, I don't know how this affects the other distance races, don't recall the details. Stay in there.
Nalu
Paddle with Strength, PONO and ALOHA
#14 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 11:30am
I think there are 2 seperate issues here.
Anyway, I gotta poop.
poopie
#15 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 12:29pm
There are no long distance races sanctioned directly by the HCRA. All long distance races are sanctioned by the host association whether it is OHCRA (Molokai Hoe), Na Wahine O ke Kai (Na Wahine O ke Kai), Queen Liliuokalani (Moku O Hawaii) etc. Each island association establishes it's own rules for the events they put on.
The HCRA does allow paddlers under 18 in the HCRA State Championships, the only event it sanctions directly.
#16 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 12:15pm
Jim asked about overuse injuries specific to juniors. With good responsible coaching most injuries can be avoided. However, injuries do happen even in the best of situations.
Juniors will have a different susceptibilities to injuries depending on their maturation rate. Early maturers may be able to train as adults by age 18-19 for males and 17-18 for females, an average maturer by age 20-21 and 19-20 for females while late maturing junior athletes may have to wait until they are 23 or older to train as an adult.
All this is heavily dependent on how that junior was prepared prior to adolescence and through puberty. If they trained properly and developed their physiological, biomechanical, social and psychological skills properly they would be at a stage in training where they have just finished training in order to learn how to train, and would be beginning to train to compete.
If things go wrong, the injuries most likely to happen are soft tissue related; strained or torn muscles, tendon irritation (tendinitis, bursitis, etc.), in some cases cartilaginous problems may also be present if the paddlers are receiving very poor long term technical guidance. Hydration related injuries should also be a big concern (as MikeA's reference to post Liliu'okalani medical interventions). These could be the most serious of all "injuries" as chronic, repeated and long term dehydration can lead to some very serious lasting medical problems.
Metabolic issues could also show up in those juniors who are pushed too hard too early.
There is a low risk of injuries to bone growth due to the lack of impact and the associated high forces in the joint loading.
The biggest risks to poorly prepared juniors may well be psychological and social: Inabilities to handle the pressures of training long hours, the fear of failure associated with not being able to finish, impact on school, friends and family. The last thing we want are juniors who hate the sport by age 18 and we loose a generation for a while.
Alan
For those who want to learn more about long term athlete development please visit www.ltad.ca
#17 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 1:29pm
Mahalo AlanC! It is truly a blessing to have someone of your wisdom and knowledge in our midst. Now, please design us Sail Sand Pointers a program that can help us to hang with the Big Boys up North.Cheers, Jim.
#18 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 1:40pm
Step 1. build a good, sustainable junior program
Step 2. train juniors to train for 2-3 years
Step 3. train juniors to compete for 3-6 years
Step 4. train juniors to win
The next generation of junior Canadian paddlers are growing up fast...
#19 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 1:55pm
The current rule could be considered a bit draconian, but it's probably a case of "better safe than sorry." Fair or not, I think it kind of makes sense. With all the other headaches of just trying to put the race together in the first place, to add the strain of accommodating all the legal issues related to letting under aged paddlers participate, it becomes a matter of diminishing returns and a logistical nightmare. If 18 is the magic age where legally you are responsible for yourself and your actions, then so be it.
Just my two cents. (Okay, 1 and 1/2 cents)
#20 Mon, 03/12/2007 - 10:43pm
Throughout the history of the race, there's been under eighteen guys here and there. Someone mentioned Nappy and the guys from last year and I know of others in between those times. There has to be a way for these individuals to participate.There are tons of guys from Hawaii and Tahiti who can do this race at age sixteen or seventeen.
#21 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 4:24pm
Howzit gang,
Not to sound like I am blowing my horn but I did my First Molokai Solo on a surfski at 16 and ended up in the top ten. At that time it was basically the guys I worked out with like Marshall Rosa and Kala Kukea who gave Kanaka Ikaika the thumbs up on my entry.
I think in todays world ( as that was a few years ago) - unfortunately we have Lawyers who like to make this kind of thing out of reach due to lawsuits and insurance etc.
Personally it was and always will be my best crossing and will stand out in my mind forever.
Why can't other up and coming juniors boys and girls with the right supervision do it as well!!
Mark Sandvold
www.v10hawaii.mp
#22 Thu, 03/08/2007 - 7:22pm
Let's face it. You can argue about injuries, the hassle of getting waivers, liability and ability until you are blue in the face. None of these arguments is compelling enough to bar minors from paddling the channel. The rule prohibiting minors from paddling the channel is simply arbitrary, capricious and for the sake of convenience, IMHO.
#23 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 12:39am
I really don't understand all the hand-wringing about this, especially in Hawaii. You have a fair but not huge group of teenagers surfing Pipeline by the time they're teenagers. As for injuries, you have groms spending several hours in the water a day starting when they're 10-11 years old. The key thing is that these kids build up to this over time. Usually with Pipeline, a lot of those kids have some kind of mentor bringing them out there.
What is a problem is kids who haven't put the time in the water. There's plenty of those in Hawaii too. You get kids off the couch that enter Molokai and it's a big problem just like adults off the couch. I like Mark's suggestion where his mentors vouched for him to the race director. I absolutely agree teenagers tend to have poor judgement and overestimate their abilities. That's why coaches and parents should be an important part of this.
I think it's a huge mistake for OHCRA to discourage under-18 paddlers from Molokai. At the end of the day, you have pretty sizeable groups of kids on all of the islands doing much riskier things than paddling Molokai and excelling at it. If I remember correctly, Jamie O'Brien was 18 when he won the Pipe Masters the first time. You could argue that surfing Pipe is not the same as paddling a distance race but I guarantee that those kids have the base level of fitness to become excellent paddlers with some training. I feel that instead of limiting teenagers OHCRA should be looking at ways to get these kids involved in paddling. If you've spent any time in the lineups in Hawaii and seen what some of the 12 and 13 year olds are doing, you would know there are a lot more potential Karel Jr.'s out there.
#24 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 6:44am
Hey Snarfblat, is liability an issue with minors in this race?
It would be interesting to hear OHCRA's reason for no allowing minors to race the channel.
poops
#25 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:00am
Hey AlanC. After all those years of training juniors to train to train they won't be juniors anymore. So its a non-issue.
#26 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 11:10am
Bingo
#27 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 1:02pm
I won the Indy 500 when I was three days old.
#28 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 2:41pm
I would agree with AlanC on many points. Preparation is the key, and many of the injuries that juniors may sustain are similar to those of adults. As far as I know there are no peer reviewed journal articles related to injuries of juniors specific to outrigger canoe paddling (or adult outrigger canoe paddlers for that matter). Many of the injuries that AlanC mentioned are a risk for many sports and for shorter distances than Molokai. As AlanC mentioned (and I would wholeheartedly agree), hydration related issues are of great concern(for the adult paddler as well). That being said, proper coaching, mentoring and preparation are key. There are many other sports that Juniors paricipate in that are far more "dangerous" than outrigger canoe paddling (football, cross-country, wrestling, motorcross, downhill skiing, rugby, lacrosse, snowboarding, and skateboarding to name just a few).
Personally, I believe if the club the Juniors are paddling for have a good reputation (esp. coaches) and the juniors have mentors who will vouch for them (as well as parental consent with release of liability) then why not let them paddle.
On a side note, I know for a fact that Jim was six days old and he came in third (behind me and some guy from Midpac).
Josh
#29 Fri, 03/09/2007 - 5:15pm
Poops,
I don't have any special knowledge in the area of a minor's waiver of liability but I do know that the general rule is that a minor cannot waive liability, but the minor's parents/legal guardian can. However, having said that, there are cases in which the court has held that the parent/legal guardian cannot waive liability for a minor.
Example: http://www.berkeleydaily.org/article.cfm?archiveDate=06-27-02&storyID=13003
I don't know what position the Hawaii courts have taken on this issue.
Snarfblat.
#30 Sun, 03/11/2007 - 10:11pm
those damn ski resorts...they're such a rip off anyway.
#31 Sun, 03/11/2007 - 10:50pm
1968,
There is a literature on Outrigger specific exercise physiology and injury:
see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=pubmed_DocSum&db=pub...
Cheers,
Bob
Kanu The Rock
#32 Mon, 03/12/2007 - 12:56am
Hey Bob,
I stand corrected. That being said, the two journal submissons on Pubmed do not say much. One is a self reported study (based on a one page questionaire) with an n=101 showing that 49% repot injury (interesting). The other doesn't discuss injury and has an n=21. I admit that paddling has it's inherent risks...but I still think the Juniors should be able to paddle Molos if appropriate. Peace, Love and Aloha! J
#33 Mon, 03/12/2007 - 5:53am
Thanks for reply Josh,
I actually looked for the literature a few yrs ago right after I got into OC-1 since I wondered about asymetric related overuse (paddling or leaning more on one side). Of course, this lessens with experience. I was surprised there was any liturature at all. Hopefully with the increased popularity of the sport, there will be more published. Back to the subject line, and unless I missed someone else saying the same, I guess my opinion is that if there are rules prohibiting under 18'ers, one other option would be for organizers to think about having any interested and ready under 18'ers to get sponsored or endorsed by a coach or a parent to paddle the Channel in an official race capacity. My guess is that alot of the other sports have legal issues to contend with related with certain age groups being "excluded". Maybe I'm wrong but that would be my first guess.
Cheers,
B
Kanu The Rock
#34 Mon, 03/12/2007 - 8:46am
Let them race.
By trying to reduce liability, which is the biggest factor here (let's be honest), you are actually incurring more liability if/when those folks decide to do it anyway "off the grid"...They're going to do it anyway, it might as well be with the full support of parents, peers, coaches, and organizers.
#35 Wed, 03/14/2007 - 8:52am
On that asymetrical overuse injury thing, I know a guy who started paddling in the early oc-1 days(early 90s)who recently had hip replacement surgery. He seemed to think oc1 had something to do with it. At the time of the surgery, the guy was in his mid-forties and had been 0c1ing heavily for the previous ten plus years. When I say heavily, he probably logged as many miles as anyone on O'ahu during that period. In other words, alot.
#36 Wed, 03/14/2007 - 10:43am
While legal liability is definitely one side of the discussion, the ethical side is the other.
Can the paddling community guarantee to our juniors that they will receive responsible guidance from well trained coaches who understand the limitations and demands of outrigger paddling? Can we as a community say with certainty what the long term effects of long distance racing for juniors will have?
There are some very responsible and experienced junior coaches out there. But what about the ones who are not as responsible, not as well experienced? Can we just assume the juniors they coach will be safe in a crossing, in the training they do for the crossing, in the technique they use won't cause overuse injuries?
Do we err on the side of caution and say no to all, or be all cavalier and macho and say yes to all?
#37 Wed, 03/14/2007 - 11:50am
That's easy-be all cavalier abd macho, of course! This is outrigger canoe paddling, brah.
#38 Wed, 03/14/2007 - 12:36pm
Coaching is key to not just juniors but also to adult paddlers to avoid injuries. So if a coach is giving improper training to adults is it not the same risk. Theirs a junior program I know of where a bunch of juniors is doing oc1 training with adults and competing with the adults. These same juniors compete in some of the oc6 adult races. And they kick butt. My prediction is we will see them on the line at the queen Liliuokalani Race and the Moloka'i hoe real soon as juniors.
#39 Thu, 03/15/2007 - 7:36am
How young is too young?
#40 Thu, 03/15/2007 - 9:38am
im under 18 and i was planing to race the molokai relay with my mom this year, i cant now?
last year there were a couple of lanikai kids from our youth programe that did the relay
#41 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 12:44am
OHCRA doesn't regulate OC 1, thank goodness! OHCRA regulates OC6 races here in Hawai'i nei and THEY say your too young at <18 years to paddle across the Moloka'i channel. It is up to the people organizing the OC1 event if they want to allow younger paddlers to paddle. I am sure your going to be able to paddle with your Mom and I will be cheering for you two!
Mikala
#42 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 8:43am
There are always going to be exceptions in ability and talent. Young and old.
At what point though do organizers determine what is to young?
If you allow 18's, what about 17,14,12? And how many?
For every 2 or 3 exceptional paddlers, there will be at least 20 or 30 paddlers who want to, but in all likelihood cannot finish.
Races with escort boats have the option to pull a paddler who is unable to finish. What about iron events?
Coaches can make an assesment of a paddlers potential, and parents can sign a minor waiver, but it should be the organizers who determine race participation based primarily on paddler safety.
#43 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 9:24am
taylor,
juniors can race the relay as long as they do the rhino costal relay
#44 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 11:39am
My take would be that the parents decide first.
For a specific race, it's up to the race organizer whom they allow to participate.
AlanC is correct; why not wait another year if necessary. Physically, good young paddlers are ok in my opinion, I wouldn't fear excessive injuries. Some of the under 18 have done paddling/kayak for up to 10 years, they have a technique that protects them.
The Molokai Hoe is overrated as far as I am concerned, there are plenty of other nice races, in fact every practice session turns into a race. Or, reverse, other races seem to be underrated. I have not understood that yet.
If they can paddle with senior crews throughout the year, why not in October ?
Hip replacement - steroid use is a common cause for dying off of the head of your thigh bone - 'bilateral aseptic hip necrosis', the key issue is, that it happens on both sides.
That is not to say that the person you mentioned had this because of steroid use.
But it is a definite fact that I felt might be helpful to know for those who consider using steroids - it happens !
#45 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 7:32pm
...and The Super Bowl is just another football game.
#46 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 5:55pm
There are two often repeated themes that I do not understand;
#47 Fri, 01/04/2008 - 7:43pm
Why hold the kids back? With the alarming increase in childhood obesity, should we discourage distance training. Limit kids to training for 1/2 or 1 mile races? If they have a passion and love of the sport, lets train them properly and let them live their passion. I work with sports injuries and I see very few paddling related injuries in kids. I see way more injuries in soccer. I would rather see a kid being active and get an occasional injury, than see a kid getting an illness from being inactive. As Mike Tong said, "Let them paddle".
#48 Sun, 01/06/2008 - 8:24pm
I have to disagree with the paddling injuries. I started paddling around 12 years of age and started doing long distance races (60km+) at 15. I started getting back problems at 17. The docotrs told me i had scoliosis which wasnt started from paddling but def was a major cause for making it a lot worse than what it should of been. Various doctors said paddling is good for the muscles supporting my spine but once I started training for marathons it put a lot of strain on my spine from the many hours of being slightly slouched over in the boat. So i would recommend that kids who are still growing to get a check up by a doctor/chiroprator before taking up training for long distance events( eg molokai).Believe me, finsihing all the ultra long races when i was younger is not worth the pain i have now.
#49 Sun, 01/06/2008 - 8:53pm
Sensibly you would have to take into consideration of a child getting hurt and say no. this may be the big show but its not going anywhere it will be here forever. make a race that they could call there big race. after all your only a child once and then its a gradual decline into adulthood. I could see a parent wanting there child in the race and a coach too, a child will do what ever makes others happy. I would say there has to be a line in the sand somwhere. its a shame about the ones that could manage the race but let the kids be kids.
#50 Sun, 01/06/2008 - 10:48pm
During Hawaiki Nui there is a specific race for the U18. Its the Taurea race. It's a marathon (45km) with changes, so they don't paddle the whole way.
Being fit and physically prepared for a race is one thing. Being psychologicaly ready to enduretiredness, pain and stress is another. A good coach/parent should never forget that a kid is not a "miniature" adult. Sometimes children will just do things they don't want to, just to please an adult for whom they have respect.
Don't put too much pressure on kids. If they wan't to paddle and if you think thay can the let them go. But be sure that it's not you that want them to paddle...
#51 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 11:49pm