Aloha
First time poster, long time reader. Here is a scenario I would like to put to the paddling gurus for your comment/input on the matter. A club team made up of highly competitive guys within the group are starting to make inroads into their regional competitive. However, they are faced with the unusual scenario of having to pick the best team to be competitive. This applies in particular to the steerer position, where the team can pick from either someone whom has heaps of experience but is the weakest paddler of the team or someone whom is heavier, not as experienced but is as strong as everyone else in the team. So who would you guys choose and why? Lighter but weaker or stronger but heavier?
Submitted by pateaalo on Sun, 05/27/2007 - 6:02pm
Lighter guy... he could prob last longer in races.. and he has more experience
#1 Sun, 05/27/2007 - 7:14pm
depends on the race - shorter events they may be able to get away with the strong heavy guy, but in any distance event, a light, experienced steersman is worth their weight in gold.
Seriously!
:-)
#2 Sun, 05/27/2007 - 10:07pm
meh....which one makes the crew faster? nuff said.
#3 Sun, 05/27/2007 - 11:34pm
seat race- only change six seat-see who's faster
#4 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 3:12am
I agree with Jim ( but only this once). It also depends on the conditions. If it is flat, the strong guy can get alot of strokes in, probably better. If the water is rough and confused, the steers person will likely be steering more than paddling, therefore the light experienced guy will be better for two reasons; 1st, his experience, and 2nd, less weight for the rest of the crew to carry!
Forget the porn...stash your weed
J
#5 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 3:22am
A real seat race. Only switch that one seat. The other paddlers must remain in the same seats. When you switch out more than one paddler, then you're comparing combinations, not individual paddlers. This may seem obvious, but in my experience in oc-6, I've only seen a few real seat races. I guess they can be rather time consuming, especially when more than two paddlers are being compared. Don't let jc9's cavalier attitude fool you-he's one of the best youth coaches on O'ahu, judging from the results. Lite 'em no hide 'em. Jim.
#6 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 3:47am
i only assist one of the best youth coaches (mark hines)...thank you for the flattery though.
but seriously, that's what it comes down to. Irregardless of size, experience, etc. the faster person is better, bar none. Granted there about a million factors that go into making one steersperson better than another, so it is best to just let the watch make your choice. Once you start getting too much into things like "feel" or "juju" you get hurt feelings and drama. Then the whole crew suffers.
#7 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 7:05am
I don't agree with Jim OR jc9_0. I think you should record times for one combo with the fat steersman, THEN have the exact same crew except with the skinny steersman do the same course. Whichever boat scores the best time makes the race. Just an idea...
#8 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 9:07am
...we all know it's the hi-tech paddle (canoe) that wins the race anyway, it shouldn't matter which steersman you use...
#9 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 9:08am
One word- Seabiscuit. Or is that two words? Now for something really sanctimonious and/or nasty from e02060!
#10 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 9:30am
First, you say sanctimonious like it's a bad thing. Graduating high school and/or two years of steady employment is usually enough to be superior around my paddling crowd. You know...in the land of the blind....
Secondly, I like it nasty.
#11 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 10:58am
Hi all!
There are few factors that’s need to be clarified before I say pick one or the other.
1. Experience; how much experience does the “experience†guy got? and is he a good steer-man, a thinker, read the current and wind direction, say if you have everything the same would you still pick that person? How inexperience is the other person?…can’t keep the canoe strait?…can’t paddle-steer?
2. Fitness: you said “experience but is the weakest paddler†is his fitness is at the same level as the strong paddler? Or “not as experienced but is as strong†paddler is less or have superior fitness?
3. Weight: What is the different between these two?
If these factors can be clarified one way or the other…say:
• The “experience but is the weakest paddler†is fitter, a good steer-man and is lighter than “not as experienced but is as strong†by 10kilos than I vote for him to steer your team. However…
• If the “not as experienced but is as strong†can paddler steer, keep the canoe strait, a thinker, read the current and wind direction, have a superior fitness and only heavier than the“experience but is the weakest paddler†by less than 10 kilos than this guy get my vote.
I ‘m saying look at more than just “experience†v “inexperienceâ€, “strength†v “weakâ€, “light†v “heavyâ€. Is one willing to work on his weakness? I.e. loose weight, increase strength.
Saying all that, I think you are in good position to have two guys to pick from, especially in such a specialize position in any team. Which ever decision you make you know that is always some one to cover the other person. I hope that these two guys compete with each other for the position as its only adds to the strength of your team.
You said your regional competition just started, I’d give both of them chance to race, only that you know who is better at what.
Cheers!!
#12 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 1:16pm
Interesting point there niuvakai… but without over analysis of the situation, without getting into the nitty gritty, I would have to agree with jc9_0. Let the watch make the choice… that way there will be no hurt feeling and/or drama…
#13 Mon, 05/28/2007 - 6:11pm
i agree with the time-trial test, but only if you are able to exactly duplicate the conditions for the runs for each steersman - and this is still hard because you are assuming that the other 5 paddlers all paddled the same way and speed for each trial. To be fair you'd need to do the tests more than once. What i think is more important though is that your tests reflect the conditions of the race you are choosing the steersman for. The stronger heavier steersman might have a faster time when you test in a half mile sprint, but if you are choosing the steersman for a longer, ocean water race, you need to be testing the people in those type of conditions. And of course, take into account the race length, skills required, etc. We all know that paddling strength/speed is important, but sometimes other factors become significant, such as the ability of the steersman to keep the crew together and encourage them, do water change pickups, reading the water, making turns, etc. Depends very much on what your race is going to be.
#14 Tue, 05/29/2007 - 5:23pm
faster = better
#15 Tue, 05/29/2007 - 7:25pm
Time trials are a very tricky thing cause of all the variables. If you have a chance use all of your pre races (none championships) as your time trials. Then you can see who preforms better. Feet or inches, how much do you want to do better by.
#16 Tue, 05/29/2007 - 8:51pm
The nice thing about a strong seat six is that if he has enough experience, you add an extra power seat to your boat.
#17 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 12:39pm
Makai brings up a good point about steersmen with the abilitty to keep a crew together. I've paddled with steersmen who would not stop talking to the point that I wanted to climb to the back of the boat and pummel them with my paddle just to shut them up. A steerman who knows what to say and when to say can make a big difference especially in distance races. There is a big difference between encouragement and whining. Yelling 'Come On' in a desperate whine does not help. Positive encouragement can help a crew through a tough patch.
I've also been fortunate enough to paddle with steersmen who could paddle nearly the entire regatta race. If you've ever seen Kalama Heine race you know what I mean. A steersman like that makes a huge difference in a race.
#18 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 1:12pm
i've seen states crews with a HEAVY steersman win gold. i've seen crews with tiny steersman win states medals. i've also seen both types do well in big water over distance. nothing is more honest or more clear cut then a watch. if you have variable conditions, time the gap or lack there of, from one crew to the next over the course of a practice. if you do 6 ten minute runs and only swap the steersman between the two boats, you can see how the gap between the boats is affected. Or if it strikes your fancy, do a 100 ten minutes runs. In most cases you will se the difference in just a couple runs.
The fact of the matter is, look at any crew in a distance race. Watch what place that crew is in after the first 10 to 20 minutes. More often than not, barring anything wild (collisions, huli's, equip. failure), a crew will finish with a couple places of where they are after the start. So If you are concerned about long distance, as long as everyone is in shape, you will find a difference between the steersmen, EVEN IN SHORT runs. I've coached teams to race 30 to 60 minute races. We set our crews by doing 5.5 minute runs over the same course we've used for the last 15 years. Trust me, after even just 4 or 5 runs on this course going all out, you will see people fade.
FASTER=BETTER. for what ever reason, be it size, technique, mental, etc.
The inverse is also true...BETTER = FASTER.
There are no hairs to split here. The clock will not lie, however the operator of the clock has been known to lie...so be wary of who holds ths clock, for they also hold the power.
FASTER = LOWER TIME = HIGHER FINISH = BETTER
#19 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 1:17pm
i agree with Jc09 for the most part, but i think that if the race you are testing for is not a sprint, using sprints as the time trial leaves out a few important factors, for instance: if the race is an ocean race, and conditions are rough, the less experienced steersman might need seat 5 to help them out a lot. this would reduce seat 5's ability to contribute as a paddler; thus the more experienced, although slower, steersman might benefit the crew here. i also really think the mental portion can be a big contributing factor in a longer race; how much does one steersman motivate people over the other, and how much can this help/hurt? how readily does the steersperson identify when the crew is lagging, and what do they do about it?
although it may not happen a lot, i have seen some major changes in a crew's position in longer races, for example, reportedly a few years back in the Molokai channel race the Hui Nalu men were battling for 8th or 9th place at Portlock, shot inside the bay, and ended up 3rd at the finish. this may have been due to the thinking of an experienced steersman.
if your race is a sprint and there are turns, you need to think about how much time is gained/lost on turns relative to how much time is gained/lost on the straightaways for the two steersmen. so i really think your test needs to have something to do with what kind of race you are testing for.
#20 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 2:12pm
the dead horse has now officially been beaten to a pulp.
#21 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 2:39pm
ask a silly question, get a pulpy dead horse.
#22 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 5:47pm
Aight, first off, I'm an American rower not a paddler and we do two very different things. After having said that I'll say that I spent a bit of time in Fiji paddling and I'm looking for a chance to go back and do some more, that's why I've been perusing the forums here.
I saw the words seat race, and I think I might have some insight into this tortourous event because I feel I see people doing it incorrectly a lot of the time.
A few things about seat racing:
It should decimate the crews involved, just as challenging if not more than a regular races because of different mental strains placed on the participants.
It takes a very smart coach to analyze the data recieved from the race.
It takes two full boats, not any more or any less.
It is about the gap between the two boats and not the time taken or distance traveled (although these bits of information can tell you about the gap between boats).
The reasons:
Many people think that seat racing can be done switching only one person at a time. The problem that I see here is that this allows crews to pick their favorites for a seat: a crew can mentally pick their personal favorite instead of the fastest. For this reason at every switch more than one person should be switched so no one can tell exactly who is being looked at.
The reason for two boats is so that everyone is racing in every race. If people were given a chance to sit out they may fatigue and recover at different rates, therefore subject everyone to the same conditions.
The reason for measuring gaps is because as races progress times should lengthen and distances traveled for a set time decrease as fatigue sets in. A crew that travels 500m in 2 minutes and later does 450m in 2:00 may just be because of fatigue rather than actually being slower. Measuring the gap between boats essentially levels the playing field.
The reason for the smart coach is because they will be switching more than one person at a time and need to eventually create lineups were only one person has changed. This means that, while you may be switching two at a time, eventually you'll have the same lineup as the first with only one person switched. The participants will, hopefully, be too fatigued to realize that this is a same line up as before and only one person has switched, eliminating the possible favoritism I indicated may happen before.
To allow for these one person switches while actually switching several the coach should have a seat race matrix ahead of time, with all the line-ups. For a coaches sanity they can have one matrix that they use from year to year, just use variables for each seat.
For crew we tend to do the seat racing in smaller boats than we will actually be racing in, if possible. The theory behind this is that smaller boats take more skill to move than the bigger ones, and that more skillful rowers will be more useful in the long run.
How to tally it up:
This really depends on the coach. I've had some that take the results, award the people in the winning boat a point each time they win and then take the people with the most wins in the end. This can be distorted if there are two dissimilar boats in that you can take a crew and put it in one and they win, trade hulls, and they loose. It's worth recording the gap so you can see the participants that make a big difference.
This has been a pretty decent 'first entry' especially for basically a non-paddler. Just want to share some of my insight from a poor soul who has been subjected to seat racing on many occasions.
#23 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 6:56pm
The glue is already drying here guys, now don't get stuck!
speed measured by time spent.
#24 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 8:56pm
KB 12 Excellent post. That explained a number of questions I had about seat racing.You win the free membership for best first post.
#25 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 9:18pm
KB12, you are much better at putting into words what i wished to say. Thank you very much, i am not at all literate in these coaching terms so as to tell all what i meant.
i have henceforth come to two conclusions tonight.
1st- when at Magoos, never follow a pitcher of heinekin with four pitchers of longboard lager.
2nd- the sloppy, pulpy, beaten dead horse is now an unrecognizable mass of jelly and maggots it has been beaten to a whole new level and then left to decompose on the likelike highway in the mid day heat with an endless stream of semi trailers running it over, mind you this is on the tenth day of kona winds as well. and there has been absolutely no rain.
merry paddling to all and to all a good night.
thirdly, and most importantly, when in doubt, see first conclusion......ouch my head.
#26 Wed, 05/30/2007 - 11:49pm
On second thought... fat guys are always faster, use the fat guy.
#27 Thu, 05/31/2007 - 12:20pm
you go Goto...fat = unfit guy... hah!!
#28 Thu, 05/31/2007 - 12:54pm
Ever heard of Oscar Chalupsky?
#29 Thu, 05/31/2007 - 3:03pm
Yeah.....
but hes like George Foreman even though he looks out of shape he never really is, and hes in his 40's.
#30 Thu, 05/31/2007 - 7:56pm
Guy's, that one is going straight to the Locker under Seat Racing ... thank you KB 12
#31 Mon, 06/04/2007 - 9:50pm
the only question i have about the seat racing that KB12 suggested is: how do you account for someone else, besides the people you are testing, getting fatigued, and thus having the crew perform less well than the first time that crew was together? they will ruin the test for the second person being tested in that crew lineup.
one thing i've seen done is to do short (10 min. or so) pieces and keep switching the two people being tested back and forth between two otherwise unchanged crews. if one person being tested is substantially better than the other, it will become obvious when the performance of whichever crew they are in is always improved compared to the other crew.
to me the most fair way to test is to do seat racing more than just one day in order to account for variables, and try to simulate race type conditions (sprints vs. ocean racing) in your tests.
#32 Wed, 06/06/2007 - 8:31am
Totally agree with Makai Side on 10 minute seat racing between 2 guys. Do your seat racing at the end of practice and you truly see where you're at and what you've got.
#33 Wed, 06/06/2007 - 5:14pm
I come from a US National Team rowing background. We rely on seat racing quite often. I believe in them quite a bit. Regardless, in situations where a seat race is not accurate or required, one way to pick the steersman would be to have the 5 or 8 paddlers on the crew pick the steersman. If they are smart, they will pick the perceived or known faster steersman.
#34 Tue, 07/10/2007 - 8:58am
A steersman has to pay his dues. I don't think you can really get your crew's respect without having spent time paddling, being fit, acquired knowledge of tide, wind, and currents, and having a certain command presence.
That being said, in rough seas, the steersman and No. 1 have virtually no bite as far as propulsion goes, but the steersman can make all the difference. With the wind and waves attacking from a bad angle, it is all in the steersman's hands.
It is foolish to think a good paddler can automatically be a good steerman. Or competing for steersman based on paddling performance is an appropriate way to select a steersman.
I think you have both steersmen do several identical course over time. Pretend to be paying big attention to times, but really get the crews aside and ask them who they think makes the boat hum and they'd listen to in a tight spot.
Crews will work harder for steersmen they respect and listen to.
#35 Sun, 08/19/2007 - 4:44pm