The other thread has become too cluttered. Lets express our thoughts, analyses, while trying to keep things civil.
Submitted by bluesea on Tue, 09/04/2007 - 8:03am
The other thread has become too cluttered. Lets express our thoughts, analyses, while trying to keep things civil.
Submitted by bluesea on Tue, 09/04/2007 - 8:03am
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die sf die! why won't you die, you bastard?!
if the CG are going to be "pricks" about this (yeah, i said it, "PRICKS"), then the sf can, suck it.
#1 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 8:53am
does this mean they are also going to shut down the jetty pier? what about kalipaki beach. I mean what's going to prevent the knuckleheads from swimming out from those points and setting up anther blockade?
#2 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 8:58am
Paragragh removed to keep focus on the main subject.
Now we see a situation where Kauai paddlers may be facing a degree of restrictions to their paddling to some extent or another. The CGs response is one that is typically military and bureaucratic--its no suprise really, they do have a mission to fufill and are bound to that duty.
Another thing I am concerned about was the backroom politics that was aluded to in Sunday's Advertiser. I'd like to see the operation shut down by the courts in lew of a requirement for a full EIS. From a few cryptic statements made by Garibaldi in the Advertiser, I got the sense that he was posturing the SF organization for suing the State in case the venture should fail over the effects of a belated EIS process.
#3 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 12:59pm
Bluesea what types of commercial ventures in waikiki are you talking about and how has it affected paddling in the ocean? I have not once run into any problems with commerical boats in waikiki.
poops
#4 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 10:20am
I attended this "Safety Meeting" yesterday. Present were local and state officials as well as members of the community, canoe clubs and the yacht club.
The new security zone is a "fixed" security zone. With the cruise ships and other large vessels there is a "moving" security zone, meaning that we are restricted from getting within 100 yards of the vessel. With this form of security zone we have been able to coexist rather peacefully with the large vessels coming and going into Nawiliwili Harbor - that is not to say that we don't get irritated with the smells and pollution - but we are able to continue paddling.
The new security zone effectively shuts down the harbor for this one vessel. We are restricted from leaving our little bay and Kaiola Canoe Club is restricted from leaving their river mouth for the entire time the SF is in or around Kauai (approx 5pm-8pm). I explained to the CG that we are toward the end of long distance season and we have 40 plus mile races to train for that will be SEVERELY impeded upon by this security zone - apparently we will be required to paddle in little circles... the CG in response said they would try to "figure something out".."because we want you to win heh-heh.." I wasn't laughing. As far as we know, the SF will attempt to come back on Thursday with this "security zone" enforced and nothing "worked out."
I support the freedom of expression and the right of people to protest. I do not blame the protesters for our now extremely limited practice area. I place the blame on the SF. It was a company decision to start operations 2 days early in response to the Hawaii State Supreme Court's decision ordering an EIS. Their goal was to start operations before the TRO in Maui could be implemented. They figured that if they were already in operation, it would be more difficult to then stop operation while an EIS is being done. For every action, there is a reaction - Kauai reacted to the SF actions.
This is one thing that really got people upset on Kauai. The first is that the SF received an exemption (now ruled void) from having to complete an EIS prior to plan approval. This, according to the DOT was standard business practice up until now - no one had been required to do an EIS prior to the SF because, "no one had challenged the exemptions before" - never mind that there is a very clear statute under the Hawaii Environmental Protection Act that requires it. Additionally, SF ignored the voices of the neighbor islands. Back in 2005 our County Council - along with the County Councils of Maui and BI passed resolutions requesting that the SF do an EIS. These resolutions were obviously ignored.
We were called to a meeting yesterday to be TOLD what the new plan was. Then they say they want to work with us. Why didn't they include us in the plan making? why didn't they speak to us PRIOR to the plan being made? Again, it's the voices of Kauai that are being largely ignored.
Those on other islands may see it as a few hippies and nutjobs protesting - that may be all the news is showing. However, there were kids in the water as well as walks of all lives - professionals, students, surfers, paddlers etc - all trying to have a voice. In addition to those willing to put themselves in the water and on the jetty, there are a large number of people on Kauai who also oppose the SF operating until an EIS can be done. This includes council members, state legislators and senators. They have been voicing their concerns as well. There is also a fight brewing in the Courts here. So on all fronts people are trying to be heard.
The purpose of an EIS is to take into consideration not just the environmental ("green") impact, but also the impact to traffic (one lane roads are a nightmare!), impact from invasive species, impact on recreational and cultural uses of the area etc.. and then develop a PLAN to reduce the harmful impact. As it stands now Kauai has to scramble to address problems as they arise.
The SF claims to have deep pockets to weather this set-back.. then please keep the SF docked until we know what the ramifications will be to our island and we can plan accordingly. I am opposed to the ferry - i don't see the benefit to anyone. With a roundtrip for one person being over $400.. I can't imagine how this project will survive anyway. BUT if it is to be here, then lets develop a plan that works for everyone - not just for the commercial enterprise.
Hopefully by the time we participate in Na Wahine O Ke Kai, we won't have forgotten how to paddle in a straight line after practicing little circles in our bay!
P.S. the Hawaii SF can't be compared to the WA State Ferry System. That's a state run, under the DOT agency. It's mainly for commuters who live on islands and work in Seattle. there isn't an invasive species issue and the cost is a mere fraction of what it will cost to ride the SF, and so on..
All of this is IMHO and does not necessarily reflect the views of my canoe club.
#5 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 10:52am
Sorry - forgot a few things:
If we cross the yellow boom (the same used to contain oil spills) our boats will be impounded and we can face serious jail time and fines - we'd be violating Federal law. Additionally - say a minor, in the heat of the moment, crosses the boom, their PARENTS can be fined up to $20,000...the CG's security plan effectively draws a line in the sand, which some less rational people, will see as a dare. if the concern is public safety, i don't see this as the answer.
the jetty will also be blocked from public usage so the only way to enter the water will be through Kalapaki Beach. The boat harbor will also be closed. The Yacht club will be shut down and they will not be able to have their Thursday night regatta's.
We are told this is a "temporary" security zone, but we are given no information about what would cause them to lift it. In theory it could last 2 days, or indefinitely.
Fisherman returning from a day fishing will have to get clearance from the CG and DLNR before returning to their boat slip at the harbor. I have no idea what the impact will be for the catamaran and other boat businesses that cater to the tourists - but they were not at the meeting.
the entire harbor is SHUT DOWN so that a ferry can come and deposit 200+ cars and passengers.. meanwhile 2 canoes clubs, a yacht club, surfers, kayakers, other recreational users, fishing boats, tourists cruises etc.. will all be inconvenienced. Where is the balance?
okay, i'm climbing off my soapbox now!
#6 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 11:28am
Kanu The Rock
This is an interesting discussion and makes me think twice about what we have here. Here we have and I quote our local paddle club "towering cliffs, icebergs and whales as close as a fifteen minute drive of downtown St. John's or further along our 28,956 kilometres of coastline, sheltered bays and islands". Most of our coastline is complete wilderness. Water's cold but we don't have any access issues and probably won't for decades, if ever. Anyone want to move here? We're ~550,000 strong. We've got a great University, a blooming oil industry and one person with an outrigger canoe (you're listening to him rant). Thanks to a nice couple from the Mainland I got to paddle once alongside with other OC-1s this summer, don't know when that'll happen again.
Cheers,
Bob
#7 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 11:30am
nicely said Miko......it gives everybody a better picture of what is going on over here. Its always the small guy that suffers......we will band together and fight this till the end. Its so wrong......and now they are intruding on our territory.......
#8 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 12:00pm
Poops,
I sent you a PM.
miko,
Thanks for the info. It is quicking becoming apparent that the SF venture is not an operation that cares about being a good citizen (for want of a better term). I think the paper mentioned that it has three major local investors, so they seem to have clout here in the government.
A key to putting them out of operation will be to avoid gaining the enmity of a sizable portion of the people in Hawaii, many of whom have little knowledge of, or care for the ocean. One thing is for sure, if there is more verbal abuse of ferry passengers and property damage to vehicles, it will play right into SF's hands, and will alienate other sections of our society.
#9 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 1:31pm
KD
Your not thinking, like I said your not an ASS but your pushing it. THE CG is trying to keep those knuckle heads from getting run over by the SF sucked into the intake and spit out. That is not the way to make a statement by getting killed. Hey we are not from the middle east where dying to make a point is normal. Who you have to blame for the CG closing the zone, Like I told you they would do. Is those knuckle heads who blocked the entrance. THE channel needs to remain open. IT is the only deep water port, What does a canoe draw in draft. NOT MUCH!!
Legally like I said allow the courts to keep the SF from becoming an viable operation. At the cost to go onboard and take your auto, and whatever you want to do, it is not going to be in operations for long. IT JUST COST too much for the normal citizen.
Paddle with Strength, PONO and ALOHA
#10 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 1:29pm
What was the purpose of the harbor shutdown? My thinking it was for the safety of the people because of the situation last week where people put themselves in danger of the boat.
I have one question: If the SF does do an EIS and does make the appropriate planning and the state does approve it, then will people be happy and stop protesting? Will they then accept the SF?
I think Snarfblat was right. The fact of the matter is people don't want it on Kauai and Maui. The issue is not that they didn't do an EIS, or drugs, or invasive species.
#11 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 1:34pm
OK some interested thing I just read on the Advertiser web site. If you also look they (COPS) seized 6,000 pakalolo plants on Kauai. Now where are the drugs coming from.
Superferry 'demonstration area' planned on Kauai
Advertiser Staff
The Coast Guard is planning for the next voyage of the Hawaii Superferry to Kaua'i, on a still undetermined date, by assembling Coast Guard assets to enforce security zones in Nawiliwili Harbor.
Along with plans for the security zones, the Coast Guard Sector Honolulu, working with various federal, state and local officials, is planning to designate a "demonstration area" during the Superferry's next Kaua'i voyage.
This demonstration area — roughly between Kalapaki Beach and Kuki'i Point — is intended to allow people who choose to demonstrate to do so safely, peacefully and legally while allowing the Superferry to safely use the port.
The fixed security zones will be established in Nawiliwili Harbor before and during the Superferry's arrival.
Details on the security zones and the safe demonstration area will be distributed after the Superferry's next voyage to Kaua'i is announced, according to a news release issued today by Coast Guard officials.
Protesters who fail to comply with orders pertaining to the security zones, purposely injure or threaten to injure an enforcement officer or attempt to destruct or interfere with vessels may be punished by imprisonment for up to 10 years, and may be fined up to $25,000.
Any vessel used to violate a security zone, including surfboards, kayaks and canoes, may be immediately confiscated and forfeited.
"The Coast Guard, local, state and other federal authorities share a common goal of ensuring the safety and security of our ports, the vessels that call, and all the people who use them," Cpt. Vince Atkins, commander of Coast Guard Sector Honolulu, said in the news release.
"We support the rights of citizens to conduct safe, peaceful and legal protests, and the Coast Guard is working with our partners throughout Hawai'i to address security issues related to the Superferry's next voyage here," Atkins said.
Paddle with Strength, PONO and ALOHA
#12 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 1:47pm
aye bozo.....the respect for Kauai people is.....the SF come in after 9:00 pm (night) and leave anytime before 3:00 pm(afternoon).....this way the paddlers can paddle, surfers can surf and the fisherman can fish. Simple as that....why we have to change our life style for them. They need to adjust to our lifestyle than they can say we are trying to work with the locals. The intent is not to shut it down.....well until now since they not listening to anybody.
#13 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 2:00pm
I think it is too simple to try to lump everyone opposed to the SF in one group. There are those who are opposed because of the SF's attempt to circumvent the law. There are those opposed because of the presumed environmental dangers. There are those concerned about the possible increase in drug flow (lord knows we have a drug problem already), invasive species increase (they do get here, but the concern may be that w/ the low security level of if SF inspection they will get here faster?). And then there are those opposed because they feel that it is just more development like happening all over Kauai. And there are those that oppose it because of the interference it causes in our lives and daily practices (such as paddling). And I'm sure there are a million other reasons people oppose it.
I am personally totally opposed because I think it's a silly waste of money on an enterprise that will go belly up shortly. I am even more opposed to the company than the boat, for their handling of this situation. I don't think it is an "alternative" to flying..
I do think that a number of people would be placated by the completion of an EIS because at least with that there is a mandated 30 day public comment period, where people could be heard. Additionally, instead of all this speculation about what harm would be caused by the SF, we would have some hard data to either support or counter our position. We would also have information that would provide the basis for changes and adaptations that would be necessary to lessen the impact. It's about having an opportunity to be proactive rather than having to clean up a mess.
#14 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 2:50pm
boycott them. ignore them. let their doomed business model work its magic. it will get to the point where they are only running once or twice a week. eventually they will not be able to meet their debt obligations.
even as i write these words. i can see the few diehards who do not mix well with authority that will reattempt another blockade and cause cg, dlnr, etc. to tighten their screws even more. oh well.
#15 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 2:54pm
KD NOW YOUR THINKING.
Those knuckle heads are going to go to jail. And it is there own damn falt. The business model is not going to work. F@$K going to jail. Or paying through the nose. Keep cool.
Paddle with Strength, PONO and ALOHA
#16 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 3:03pm
I get the impression that the borders of the security zone was set farther back than is required for the SF to safely maneuver in the harbor. The most likely reason for this is to give CG patrols time to interdict any protester who intends to physically impede the ferrys progress before they can actually do so. As long as people try to enter the water, then the Nawiliwili paddlers and other water users will continue to be penalized.
#17 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 5:42pm
"I place the blame on the SF. It was a company decision to start operations 2 days early in response to the Hawaii State Supreme Court’s decision ordering an EIS. Their goal was to start operations before the TRO in Maui could be implemented. They figured that if they were already in operation, it would be more difficult to then stop operation while an EIS is being done. For every action, there is a reaction - Kauai reacted to the SF actions."
Well that sure was nice of Kauai to have a protest for Maui.
#18 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 6:39pm
I've only heard about the SF (add your favorite name here) because of these posts. How often does the ferry intend to operate, once daily, more? Hopefully I'm not fueling the fire and don't want to be devil's advocate, but it seems like the ferry's intended market is locals. I can't see many tourists being interested in going inter island with their rental cars. If the cost is $400 round trip, it will go out of business quickly for sure. But what is the difference of one more boat coming into a port once or twice daily? Seems to me the cruise ships should be more of a target for opposition. Is it the fact that cruise ships are bringing in more $ for the local economy than locals from other islands? Please don't peg me as a jackass, I'm just curious.
#19 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 6:40pm
shoots, all you guys like come to the neighbor islands and getting all cranky about the sf being out for the time being. instead of paying the $400 to use the sf, airfare on all inter-island carriers are $9, now man up come to the neighbor islands??? no need the boat, fly over come visit the family, come surf, what ever now's your chance, we not grumbling about people visiting, here's the most economical way to travel for the time being. i tired of people saying they cannot visit this and that, fly for $9. all this started with inter-island travel being expensive when only had aloha and hawaiian. at that time the sf looked to be an alternative way to travel at a cheaper rate. now look, go comes in gives the other two companies some competition and low and behold travel becomes cheaper, now no need the sf. now sf is here and it's the most expensive way to travel, would you like to pay $400, come on people, do the math. and to think the $5 fares they started with, not going be like that forever? i mean they never said any thing about fuel surcharge when they first started. i just frustrated with the sf not being honest from the start. and i know the airfares not going be $9 all the time but it sure beats the $100 tag they were killing everyone with 4 years ago. now its more managable and affordable. and any way the three hour trip to honolulu from kauai?? what scenery is that, all i going see is honolulu lights, maybe they should play that song over the pa when you coming in at ten at night (beamer brothers "honolulu city lights").
as far as them closing the habor, thats full of shit. i not really sure how the rules and law work, but they shutting down the entire habor, including the road going to the jetty. i was down there today, and they already contructed a fence to keep people out. if you been down there you guys know where i talking about. so basically the surf area known as amonia's all the way down the to the jetty is closed and fenced. now as i stated i not sure about the laws, but isn't this a state road? as a tax paying citizen, don't we have the right to go there and fish, cruise, surf, etc..... now as i see it we have a private entity, using a state habor, which i think is public?? for its own private venue? i pay boat and ramp fees every year and we all going be shut down when the sf comes in? i know when the other boats come in (matson, yb, cruise ships) we still can go in and out, but now the sf comes in and we get totally shut down? i know get some safety concerns about the protesters, but totally shutting down the habor is ridiculous. for those of you that don't know the area, it's small, the entrance to the habor is about 100 yards long if that, 300 yards puts us back on the beach, like miko said, get some serious paddling time that's going to be missed.
for those of you that say let the sf go, and you paddle and have not seen the sf. imagine you on your one man, you'll look like an ant next to a huge monster truck, thats the comparison i'll use. this thing will not be able to see you and it's coming in so fast it can't stop on a dime. now imagine this thing barreling to molokai out of honolulu habor around the times of 5-7 pm and the route they used would be going up towards diamond head and up the coast toward maunalua bay into the precious hawaii kai run, i bet there would be different opinions about the sf. eis, what ever, as a person who uses the ocean, it definately impacts my everyday life. i work the normal hours of the day and my only time to be on the ocean is during the hours that the habor will be closed, and i don't just use it for one thing. so whatever they need to do, from one persons perspective, it will definately restrict my everyday life. so everyone who reads this, say what you like, but until your here everyday, and see what really goes on, you don't know nothing. easy to sit on another island and say let it go. when your only sanity from the daily grind is to be out there on the water and relax by one form or another, and someone tells you, you cant it gets very frustrating, and i see why people protest.
#20 Tue, 09/04/2007 - 8:30pm
let's see if the restraining order file by kauai has any effect.
and nalu, the question of whether i'm an ass or not is pretty much rhetorical. just ask my wife.
#21 Wed, 09/05/2007 - 8:27am
Let me see if I have this right.
A group of people risk millions of dollars to provide a service to a small group of islands. A service that will be competitive with other shipping lines and will result in lower shipping costs for consumer goods. Just like when your Costco and Home Depot opened. No longer will suppliers of these consumer goods be at the mercy of the Matson/Young Brothers consumer rape tag team. This will save money FOR EVERYONE.
Now, a small group of people who for reasons of their own decide to commit a federal crime by interfering with inter-state commerce by blocking the SF. These people claim the SF is not welcome because it did not provide an EIS which the state said it did not need. We all know that is BS. These nuts just want to stop the SF no matter what and will use any excuse.
So, if the SF is stopped permanently, a small group of investors is out of several million dollars. That’s a risk people take when they invest. But, a larger group of investors, (read: all Hawaii State tax payers) are out $20 Million. Remember that $20 Million of state money used to improve the docks that the SF will be using? That was in the form of state bonds that the SF has to repay the state with interest.
The SF will make money for the state and the consumers will save money. How many people on your island are working 2 and 3 jobs while living with 3 generations in the same home to make ends meet?
Okay, who will loose money, hummmmmm……Matson and Young Brothers.
Sure, the CG have shutdown the entire harbor for a few hours. Can you blame them? It’s their job to protect the coast of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Oh yeah, there is the issue of the whales. F*&K THE WHALES!
#22 Wed, 09/05/2007 - 10:32am
Kanoe Man,
I never said I was anything but selfish. By the way, nice troll. Just a bit more subtlety, and I think you would have nailed it.
Ken
#23 Wed, 09/05/2007 - 12:38pm
I'm trying to get a handle on the situation with the SF and how it impacts the paddlers and beachgoers on Kauai. Are the clubs practicing in the Harbor and will they be temporarily restricted from paddling in certain areas of the Harbor when the SF arrives and departs from port or is this ban permanent? Same thing with the surfers?
#24 Thu, 09/06/2007 - 1:04pm
Snarf,
Basically, the new security plan calls for the harbor to be completely shut down from 5-8pm, 6 days a week, while the SF in in port. That time is in direct conflict with practice times, which are not flexible due to work schedules and the like. The security zone as structured will not permit our canoes to reach the ocean from our hales.
The timing could not be worse since we are all attempting to prepare for Molo' and need the open ocean for training.
#25 Thu, 09/06/2007 - 1:27pm
Also,
They indicated that it would be temporary. Plus they indicated there could/would be some sort of waiver process by which the clubs might be granted specific access to the harbor for the purpose of reaching the ocean.
We could move our canoes to a different location on island avoiding the harbor all together, but that would be mighty painful. Besides it's much more fun freaking out about it. God knows, I have enjoyed it immensely.
#26 Thu, 09/06/2007 - 1:42pm
well said kd!
Update: the Judge here on Kauai has declined to make a decision today. The attorneys for Kauai have until tomorrow to submit a brief on some issue in dispute. The Judge will decide tomorrow afternoon or evening - but the SF will not be coming for sure tomorrow.
Our club was in contact with the CG today to discuss waivers/variances etc. to allow us to leave the bay for our open water or down river practices. Apparently we will have to call the CG prior to practice to let them know we are on our way out. The CG wanted us to then call on our way back in either from the river or from the ocean - but it was explained to them that canoes aren't equipped with phones and we aren't bringing cell phones out there. It should be enough that the CG saw us go out and assume we have to come back in. it is a bit obnoxious that we have to call prior to practice, but we were told that we will have to do that a couple times at least even though we have regularly scheduled practice times. I don't know what the options are if we want to do a one man run.
It's not just canoe clubs affected - although at least 3 will be (other clubs bring their canoes to our beach at Kalapaki so they have better open ocean access), surfers are losing a break, stand up paddler who go around the harbor won't be able to, tourists who rent kayaks to go up the coast or around the harbor will be restricted, swimmers who daily swim back and forth across teh harbor, shore fisherman can't access the jetty's they fish from, and the yacht club that sails during the SF scheduled time will be restricted from holding their evening regattas.
~"Nut"
#27 Thu, 09/06/2007 - 2:24pm
Just one of the new additions to Nawiliwili's port security program
#28 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 7:02am
kdkoors that is reality......there were machine guns pointed at us last week as we made our way out to sea. I didn't see this small boat but I they did have them on the big cg boat and on the red rubber diggy ones. This all caught us by surprise.....this is Hawaii - let alone Kauai......and there were three canoes with wahine paddlers and one kane as our coach....k rack!!!
#29 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 7:20am
jmc,
Pointed at you? This is not the type of statement to be made lightly. Positively and without a doubt, there was a Coast Guardsman manning the gun, its cover removed, he was in firing position with the stock at his shoulder, his eyes bearing down on the sights, with the gun pointed at you?
#30 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 8:32am
yes
#31 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 8:17am
Well this is something of a revelation. Didn't the CG claim to have used minimal force? Why haven't you and the others come forward with this potentially damning info?
#32 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 8:31am
How soon we forget- the airlines have has by the throat and as soon as they can they are going to jack up rates. It was cheaper going to San Diego via Hawaiian then to a neighbor island. And- Young Brothers- glad they are regulated! What a nightmare using their services- hours on both the shipping and receiving end. The SF is a viable alternative- it is far more efficient moving goods and people then the airlines and as soon as airfare costs $200 to get to Oahu from Kauai we will hear a bunch of whining. Oil prices are only going to go up and a large jet uses a LOT of fuel. Their business models will not work unless they can pass on those costs- give it another five years and wait to see what it costs to fly- especially if one of the interisland companies goes out of business.
The SF has a viable business model. It will be used more for commercial interests then the casual passenger in the near term and when airfare goes up- there will be waiting lines to get on board. Have papayas from the Big Island- organic produce from Kauai- get the products on a truck- drive them to Whole Foods on Oahu. Easy transaction- farm fresh and no Young Brothers bullshit. I could name dozens more commercial uses. Lets face facts. Its a localism thing- the ferry it is opposed because people on Kauai do not want to share ocean resources like surf and fish. I do not blame them. Lets get off this EIS thing. Its a smokescreen. Even if there is an EIS that is favorable to the ferry- the same people will be out there trying to stop it- trying to stop neigbor islanders from setting ashore. That energy would be better spent directed at the developments in Koloa and Princeville that are the real source of problems.
#33 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 8:53am
I agree with most of what you say, except I would add that the EIS is both needed, and is also a good delaying tactic and a pontential lethal blow.
#34 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 9:31am
I don't think anyone has expressed a xenophobic attitude toward people from neighboring islands. You don't see us standing at the airport trying to force people to turn around and fly back to where ever. Again, you cannot lump everyone opposed to the SF into one group or another - there are very varied reasons for being opposed. I am opposed UNTIL an EA or EIS can be completed and Kauai is able to mitigate whatever impact the SF may have on our island.
If you were over here you would hear many people expressing frustration that the SF is "being forced on us" without our voice being listened to. Opposition to the SF on the grounds that no EIS was done in violation of the law, has been around since day one.
I think many people here have legitimate concerns and we are waiting for answers to address those concerns. Answers will be gained through an EIS. There are many of us who will be satisfied when the EIS is completed and Kauai is given the opportunity to respond by taking preventative measures and precautions to lessen the negative impact. This can only be positive for all those involved. An EIS is not a "tactic" - it's the law.
Please stop trying to categorize the people of Kauai as being anti-the-rest-of-Hawaii. Did we not just have State's here, Na Pali challenge and the Kauai World Challenge - as far as paddling's concerned the more the merrier. No one in the community objected to 3000 paddlers descending on Hanalei to participate in the State races.
This is about preserving Kauai and keeping it a wonderful place to visit.
#35 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 10:41am
bluesea, where you from??? you don't really seem to know what the cg is about. i've been boarded during a routine check on my fishing boat with guns drawn, pointed directly at me, four guys with M-16s. and this was a routine check to see if i have proper paper work, life vests, flares, electronics,etc. so yes they were guns drawn during the protest. it may have been random at the canoe paddlers as jmc was talking about, but guns drawn is guns drawn....
poidog where you from, easy to talk about kauai, but what if the sf was shutting your area to the ocean down for three hours a day and thats the only time you could use it?? its not just about the eis, its about having access to the ocean and its surroundings. like miko state it affects, not just paddlers, you talking about fishermen (land and boat), the sailors, the surfers, the kayakers, etc... look at the big picture they shutting down the entire area nobody can use it period.... and this is for kauai. imagine if they shut down maui's habor, i bet more post come up from the canoe paddlers there and the people who use it. so this seems to be a kauai thing, but it's a state thing, just so happens we (kauai) are the only habor being totally shut down during the sf operations. i wonder why??
#36 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 11:44am
scoops,
to be clear: during routine inspections, you actually had guns drawn and pointed at your person? i'm not familiar with cg weapons protocol, but am familiar with army and navy. only in hostile situation are weapons to be trained on targets or individuals. all other times weapons are held across the chest "at the ready." unless you were being boarded for suspicion of a crime, i think you might have a legitimate complaint against the cg.
#37 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 1:04pm
I had a Bayside 17 for a few years, but that was long ago. Never was boarded, except for courtesy inspection by the Aux. Scoops, if you are saying armed boarding parties are happening in Hawaii waters, then that's f**ked.
#38 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 12:46pm
I lived on kauai for 20 years. Still have family there and plenty of friends. A grandchild in Kilauea on the way. I love the place and the people. I hear you about the Coast Guard rules. That is totally wrong and an overreaction and I bet now that the protests were so strong- the CG will become even more heavy handed and feel justified in their gestapo approach.
If you read what people are saying in the papers on Oahu you will see that they felt that this was all against them, to shut them out. There is ill will amongst neighbors. This whole thing is going to get more intense. I do not think people over here (oahu) knew about the harbor closures- I did not until reading all this stuff online here. I often read the Garden Island online and this problem was never mentioned. The only thing we get are about mongooses and a possible homeless invasion and then videos of people screaming at families in cars. Friends I have there are concerned about reef raping and wave poaching. I think if everyone became more educated about the issue we would all join in to keep those waters free. That is in our common interest..
Aloha to you all on Kauai.
#39 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 2:16pm
yep, armed and dangerous was what my friend and i experienced. it's not like we were out to hurt anyone. but this was recently as this year. besides guys on the cg boat, two came aboard and one was holding his side arm at all times, asked if we had weapons on board (yes we had a knife for cutting bait). but i know its there job to be safe, and also protect the habors. was kind of trippy and i was pretty scared, just a routine fishing trip on a twenty foot boat. they came up full throttle on us in the habor, cut us off and had us turn off the boat. boarded and proceeded to come aboard. they did what they had to do, stopped our fishing trip short by about an hour, but we still caught fish.
poidog its not about people coming to visit. for alot of us its the closure of the habor. i really don't agree with the protesters banging on the cars and flatting there tires, thats not a peaceful protest, that was ugly and shameful. if that was me, i would've pound somebody vandalizing my car, but thats just me. closing the habor is the biggest part, in that case no really means no, and that means nobody going in and out of the habor. the reason you don't really hear about all this in the paper, it's because this is a paddling forum and most people posting here are paddlers, using the habor for practice and other ocean activities. the paper is what the media wants you to hear. we here on this forum are a little voice towards the whole package. eis is good, keep the ocean and habors safe.
#40 Fri, 09/07/2007 - 10:27pm
Poidog wrote "Friends I have there (Kauai) are concerned about reef raping and wave poaching."
What exactly is “reef raping†and “wave poaching?" The last time I encountered a reef IT raped me of several inches of skin. Also, is it really poaching if some one does not have a license to catch a wave? Is there jar some where that everyone puts cash into every time they catch a swell? How would that work? 1 to 5 foot swell, $1. 6 to 8 foot swell, $2. 8 to 10 foot swell, $5. Anything over 10 feet requires a license or the surfer/paddler will be fined. If the swell gets past you it’s free?
I’ve spoken to several friends in Kauai and none of them saw any CG fire arms pointed or handled. The CG ships equipped with the mounted .30 caliber guns never removed the covers. At no time did any CG member draw a side arm. I’ve watched all of the television coverage, I didn’t see any guns and I could clearly see the covers on the.30 cal’s.
Hell, even in a combat zone the rules of engagement for the military do not allow a service member to point a loaded firearm at a person unless that member is being fired on. The CG can’t even load a round into the gun chamber until upper command gives the okay. Anytime you see a military security guard not in a combat zone with a firearm, the ammo magazine is empty.
Now, how about the possibility of drugs coming over on the SF. Everyone knows that is a B.S. issue. There are plenty of drugs on all of the Hawaiian Islands, even your little Kauai. They’re most likely worried about outside competition causing the prices to drop. And the same for bringing guns onto the island. From what I understand a lot of people hunt there so everyone has them already.
The traffic issue might be the best argument for the protesters. But, if someone doesn’t bring a car over on the SF, they are going to fly over and rent a car. The only difference is the existing airlines and car rental companies make money off them.
#41 Sat, 09/08/2007 - 9:08am
Wow, the kick on that .50 cal must be pretty hard to handle in that little boat!
#42 Sat, 09/08/2007 - 9:40am
Jim,
The .50 cal is the primary mode of propulsion. The trolling motor is only for maneuvering in tight spaces. Once that gun opens fire to full throttle, the boat flies across the water. Quite amazing actually.
#43 Sat, 09/08/2007 - 10:02am
Scoops, Where were you boarded Miami. That is the only place the I was stationed IN THE CG, that you went weapons drawn. I think maybe your smoking something, becuase our procedures are not to come on board like jack booted thugs. Unless we do a background and find that you have a warrant, or we suspect that you may be doing something illegal.
Are we armed YES. We are water cops. Just like land cops. Do some of the members carry shotguns and M-16 yes, part of the procedures. CG is not going to shoot an unarmed surfer in Nawiliwili Harbor. He may go hands on and the Knucklehead may get a bumb, but you can't interfere with flow of commerce in a port.
Why havent the protesters tried to stop the Jean Anne it brings cars to Nawiliwili? Oh KD I won't ask your wife about your being an Ass. I'll take your word. I am in the same boat sort of an Ass.
Paddle with Strength, PONO and ALOHA
#44 Sun, 09/09/2007 - 8:37am
nalu, i not smoking weed, but if i was it would have made the experience even more nuts. this happened right in nawiliwili habor. not only did my boat get boarded, but my partner that was fishing with me also got boarded. this is a true story, i know they were just doing there job, in fact that week everyone i talked to got boarded in the habor. not sure why?? the station is right there at the boat ramp and they could stop us before going into the water, but who knows. we just regular fishermen not doing nothing illegal or bad, they came aboard and checked out things, making sure everything was in check and in good working condition. i know some boats that got boarded got tickets for not having flares or other safety equipment, i know like i said before they were just doing there job. i use this as an example, cause someone posted earlier that all the gun talk with the cg was full of shit. it is true no matter what anyone says, i experienced first had, and so did alot of fishermen. so if you read this and no believe here's my finger the middle one....
#45 Mon, 09/10/2007 - 10:46am
oh yea one more thing, guns were drawn at the protest, i think, don't quote me on this, but some of the guys on the small light house side of the bay said someone had a spear gun in the water. so yea safety comes first, and cg will enforce the safety of that. so not all the information is being relayed out to everyone. you gotta figure what you see on the news is only a mere few seconds, those of us watching were there for hours. so sometimes don't believe the media hype....
#46 Mon, 09/10/2007 - 10:52am
I think its protocol that the cg is armed and ready when stopping a boat even for a routine check. Think about it, if you are the CG wouldn't you feel a whole lot better boarding a complete strangers boat armed? I think it would be stupid not to be. Yeah you are a good citizen doing no harm, you know that, most people are, but how is the CG to know that?
How are they to know that you are not an armed drug runner. They have to be prepared, and the time it takes to draw a gun that is not at the ready is enough time for someone to be harmed.
The CG is out there to help us, not to do us any harm. Its sad that people have difficulty seeing this and think its just another opportunity to complain and gripe about something.
poopsise
#47 Mon, 09/10/2007 - 11:19am
just to set the record straight.....guns were drawn as we paddled past the coast guard boat. And you bozo.....no talk if you were not there. We were and saw them with our own makas.....the tv didn't even show us paddling pass the cg boat and doing donuts training between the big cg boat and their red rubber dingy - how can you say you didn't see the machine guns drawn when they didn't televise us. There were about six canoes practicing that day and we were confined in a small area to practice cause we couldn't paddle our normal route.
#48 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 8:50am
Man the way you kauaians are acting, if I were the CG I would have had my guns drawn too.
Actually I always have my 2 guns armed and ready.
#49 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 9:01am
that you poops?
#50 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 9:24am
jeah! workin on my trapezius dorsi and adductor latitimuses.
#51 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 9:40am
dammit you two, stop having fun here.
#52 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 10:18am
"...the tv didn’t even show us paddling pass the cg boat and doing donuts training between the big cg boat and their red rubber dingy..."
jmc,
To what minimum distance did your canoes close to both the cutter and its rubber boats? What was going on during the protest when you were out paddling and circling these boats? Was most of the drama over, and all of the protesters out of the water, or was the CG actively in the process of clearing the harbor and apprehending the people blocking the entrance?
You answered that the guns were at the ready, and I'll take your word for it. But I also believe that you should provide more details surrounding these circumstances that you described.
#53 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 10:49am
bluesea, I can answer those questions:
When we arrived at practice that Monday we were prepared to do our normal routine practice - head out of Kalapaki bay and turn south down to Kipu Kai to get some open water practice. The SF was outside the mouth of the harbor and there were CG and KPD boats around - there were protesters in the water and along the jetty, but they were well inside the harbor.
We headed out on our normal path to head out to the ocean. We passed between the SF and the CG cutter (i think that was the boat) we had three canoes with 14 women and 1 male coach. As we passed by the cutter - well outside of 100 yards from the SF we heard the CG come on a loud speaker and say something about "kayakers" staying 100 yards away or or we could face possible arrest. We continued on our way and did our open water paddle. When we came back to the bay, it was the same thing - we had to pass between the SF and CG. Never did we come within 100 yards of the SF - no one except for CG went near the SF.
The day we were out there, Monday 8/27, the CG was not herding anyone or trying to clear the harbor. in fact, what i understand was the CG, DLNR and even the KPD were to an extent working with the protesters to ensure the people were safe. It was brought to their attention that there were young kids out there - eleven year olds and the authorities were keeping their eye on them for safety reasons. We paddled through the protesters doing our normal routines. Rather than deal with the CG again we spent the second half of our practice doing circles around the harbor - this is something we do often anyway. there was another club out there too doing the same thing. Again, at no time were we near the SF. We were told to keep paddling and not to stop. We were told that if we stopped our canoes could be impounded. We never stopped
From what I understand, the CG's response on Sunday was much harsher than it was on Monday. However, when I attended the Safety meeting that the mayor and CG held, the CG did acknowledge that the guns on the ships had been manned. He also assured us that they would not be manning the guns if/when the SF returns b/c the CG does not view the protesters as terrorists.
The scary part occurred after we had already brought the canoes on the beach and were doing our end of practice pule - as we were standing there all arms in saying our pule - the storm troopers came running by in full riot gear.. down to the beach - presumably to apprehend some teenagers who'd been out there on surfboards.. that was a little disconcerting. it didn't appear that the "threat" these kids posed warranted such a heavy handed response.
#54 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 1:30pm
Thanks Miko,
In case you didn't know, I am firmly on the side of the paddlers, and its good to hear that you guys acted with discretion and good judgement. All of this has made me think twice about how I will handle myself around around commercial vessels in my own home waters. What a nightmare. I wish the padders of Nawiliwili much luck in completing their season unimpeded.
#55 Tue, 09/11/2007 - 6:17pm
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070912/NE...
here are what some had concerns about...
#56 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 6:45am
As if those damn Oahu'ans and their frickin' Superferry weren't already going to be stealing all your waves and fish, now Kauai and Maui need to keep track of your rocks too!
...better start tattooing serial numbers on all your women - I think they're next...
#57 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 10:17am
I do think it's telling that something like this was discovered on the very first run.
#58 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 8:13pm
What does it say? Maui river rocks are super bad ass?
#59 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 10:07pm
Maui river rocks are badass? If thats the case I can't wait for the superferry to resume so I can get me some!
#60 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 3:00pm
River rocks like at Paukukalo and other places are a valuable building commodity. While many contractors purchase the stone from legitimate private sources, illegal harvesting of this kind must sadly be guarded against. I hope locals the world over continue to resist such abuses.
#61 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 5:26pm