Switching sides/strokesper min.

If less equals more, then do less...
...on each side that is.

Cut it in half again to 15 strokes per side, and you just might be ANOTHER 25 seconds faster.

#1 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 4:04pm

I find that doing a whole run on one side works for me. I then do the next whole run on the other side. I mean it would be dumb to just work on one side and never use the other.

(seriously, for me 15-30)

#3 Wed, 09/12/2007 - 8:10pm

I have been wondering about this myself. I have just started doing structured workouts, as opposed to just paddling for an hour or two.

Earlier this week, after a warm up I did four 2 min intervals at the fastest pace I could hold with 2 min recovery, then cruised for 10 mins or so to prepare for a short test.

I paddled from one predetermined point to another - a distance I know to be 3 miles. I was trying to keep a 60 stroke per min pace, switching approx every 15 strokes.

When it was all said and done I covered the distance in a little over 26 minutes and averaged 6.8 mph on totally flat water, no wind, no current.

Questions are: is 60 stokes per min typical of "race pace"?

Is 3 miles a good indication of what I might be able to do over a longer distance?

I am using an wide wood paddle (9.5 inches or more)...would a narrower paddle be faster for OC1?

Is the pace I paddled relatively competitive for short or medium distance races?

Thanks in advance for your input and advice!

Raphael

#5 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 9:30am

In swimming it is a matter of stroke length and stroke rate.

The Australian Thorpe has one of the longest stroke length, and interestingly also one of the highest stroke rates. Together = world champion.

They train these things with a little beeper that they put under the swim cap.

For example: 200 meter intervals, allowed time 2:05 - 2:10. First pass the beeper goes every 0.7 secs. Second pass every .9 secs. Third pass every 1.1 and fourth pass 1.3; then down again.
These are just examples. With a stroke every 1.3 secs you have 45 strokes for the same distance, with 1 sec you have 60/min.

The crucial thing: you have to keep the same speed.
This way they train efficiency and stroke length.

The actual cadence depends on the conditions. Flat water is different from open ocean; usually triathletes have higher stroke rates than pool swimmers.

Paddle size: there is an interesting article about Danny Ching; they reduced the blade size by 0.5 inch every hour in a long distance race. With every blade size their speed dropped after about an hour and they were able to bring it up again with the smaller blade. 0.5 knots/hour difference.

#7 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 10:40am

nemO, the conclusion was that they need to do more testing, as they did not record data on how the blade changes effected stroke rate.

The Danny Ching article is here

http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2007/07/discussion-about-paddle-types....

#9 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 11:18am

Hi nem0,

as usual it depends.

Energy expense is lower with a larger paddle and a slow stroke rate; due to a lower heart rate.

However, you tend to get stuck or maxed out with that rate and you cannot react to changing circumstances as well; lets say trying to get on a bump; trying to burst your speed to catch up to someone; the sprint to the finish ...

I reduced paddle size - also length - and went faster with a higher rate.

I think it is pretty much the same as in biking: you can't go uphill in your largest gear etc.. Not different in paddling.

#11 Thu, 09/13/2007 - 2:00pm

Zumapop, the 20 sec saving is probably a fitness adaption over a couple of weeks as a result of the extra stress of paddling 30 strokes/side. Dropping down to 20 strokes/side and being faster, just proves that what you did works for you as a training drill.

Do it with more intensity next time and see if you can improve even further. Good work.

Cheers Rambo

#13 Tue, 09/25/2007 - 7:09pm

For paddle length, someone once told me, while standing up straight and holding the paddle up straight on the ground in front of your chest, the paddle handle should come up to you nipple.

If any women need help with paddle measurements, just send me a private message.... and my wife will be happy to help you out. sigh

#15 Thu, 09/27/2007 - 8:04am

swell paddler. Since the oc1 sits a little lower to the waters surface (especially my pegasus) I went a little bit shorter on my shaft. Approx. an inch. doesn't seem like much, but sure feels like much. It really makes a difference when you want a higher stroke rate. (like catching the bumps)

I also like the shaft a little stiffer since the pulling weight (6man canoe -vs- 20lbs OC1) is different. With the added stiffness (like carbon fiber......don't forget the lite weight of composite materials) seems to be more responsive out in the ocean. Also the stiffer sharft doesn't put as much stress on your shoulders or body on the OC1 than it would on a 6man.

Verdict for OC1 paddle (personal verdict)

1) an inch or inch half shorter than a 6man paddle

2) a tad bit stiffer

3) lite weight (carbon) My personal OC1 pick is the Makana Ali'i Paddles wood or hyrid. Has a great feel and is super lite. Wanna get one, good luck with that!

#17 Fri, 09/28/2007 - 10:09am

I've been playing around a lot recently with paddle width. About 3 years ago i went from a Makana Ali'i to a Mudbrook, and in the process dropped almost an inch from the width (not entirely positive, but i think from a little under 9.5" to a little over 8.5'). I was really happy with the decrease, and for about the last three years i've been a big proponent of the smaller paddle. However, i recently bought a 10.25" paddle in Tahiti that i've been using in the rudderless.
I've found.. in the flat, with nearly an inch and a half difference there isn't a whole lot of difference in my speed (w/ Garmin) in the rudderless. I haven't really looked at my speed over any kind of distance in the flat, this is only during sprints. But, in the ocean the bigger blade in the rudderless seems to be pretty key. I dont know how translatable this all is to an OC-1. If i try and use the bigger blade (double bend as well) in my Kainalu, i feel like i am paddling with a log. My instinct has always been to paddle with a smaller blade in bigger conditions and a bigger blade in flatter conditions, but this has been reversed in the rudderless and now i'm stuck and don't know what to do. All i know is that if i had to do a long distance race tomorrow in the OC-1, i'd take my smallest mudbrook, and if i had to do anything in the rudderless (unless it was really long and flat), i'd use my 10.25" tahitian blade.
I guess the moral of all of that is... it really depends on what the ocean and canoe is like... i guess body type too, i'm pretty scrawny, which is another reason i've always assumed smaller would be better for me.
As far as switching sides... with the smallest width paddle i have i rarely go above 15 (though it varies A LOT). And with the biggest mudbrook i have (9.5") i dont think i go much above ten strokes per side.
alright.. that's all

#19 Sat, 09/29/2007 - 7:04am

The number of strokes per change affects your power output / hull speed more than you think. Most long change cycles 15+ strokes are often a result of crappy change technique.

On paddling ergs (which require no real "water technique"), paddlers who have excellent change technique and fitness can maintain their top speed on intervals and simulated time trials using as few as 3-8 strokes per side, whereas paddlers with poor change technique can take anywhere from 10-30 strokes to rebuild speed.

In the skilled paddlers, power output drops off fast after 8-12 strokes then settles in from 20-40 strokes, but at a much lower speed than their optimal speed they can maintain at 8-12 strokes a side.

The less skilled paddlers were unable to maintain their hull speed in the 8-12 stroke range as they were still recovering speed from the change itself and ended up needing more strokes a side (20+) for their optimal speed.

The challenge in learning to do efficient changes is realizing that there are three distinct strokes in each change cycle;

the last stroke of the series,
the first stroke of the series and
the strokes between the first and the last stroke.

The biggest differences occur on the first and last strokes. There are changes in technique evident in;

core stability,
stroke length,
stroke rate,
force per stroke and
what muscles sequencing and force production.

V1 paddlers have to learn to change on any combination of strokes at any time to suit the water and wind conditions. There have been rudderless races (i.e. Super Aito in 2006) where almost the entire event was on one side for over 3 hours, to sprint races where ratios can be anywhere from 1:3 to even 8:8 or all on one side.

Have fun!

#21 Wed, 10/03/2007 - 7:23am

Is this a joke?

#23 Wed, 11/21/2007 - 7:16am

or a J stroke and you could stay on a side all day

#25 Wed, 11/21/2007 - 5:16pm