Im just curious, but how many other people are out there who cant afford to plunk down the $3,000+ for a new canoe? Seems like for every person who has one there are 50+ people who want it but cant afford it. Do the canoes really need to cost so much? Are there alternatives to the outright pruchase? Do any builders offer financing? Just curious.......
Submitted by aquafiend65 on Wed, 10/10/2007 - 8:14pm
I would tend to sympathize with your assessment, if not for the fact that, here in Hawaii anyway, there is a 6-12 month waiting list for the more popular models. And that's for a boat made in China. If you want a hand-made boat, by the builder, you can expect to wait 12-24 months. It's basic supply and demand. That said, I don't think these guys are getting filthy rich.
#1 Wed, 10/10/2007 - 9:15pm
aqua...I feel your pain. I am in the same situation that you are in. Just got through fighiting with my wife over where the $$ should be going...vacation or towards a canoe that I feel I truly want and need. It is hard to justify something like that for that kind of money.
Kdkoors if am not sure that aI agree with your assessment though. Supply and demand are something that is controled by the supplier. If the companies that make the boats picked up production.....the price would fall! By not making so many boats a year......you get to name whatever price you want!!
That leaves the question:
With such a (projected) hight demand; why are there not more poeple making OC-1s?!?!
#2 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 5:50am
12-24 month wait??? Thats f'n crazy!!! Is there that big of difference between the Chinese and hand builts? Price difference?
#3 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 6:57am
I happen to know some new boat builders and I don't think that they are going to get rich off of building. They just do it because they love the sport and want to live the sport. With the cost of carbon fiber and then the cost of labor in Hawaii they are not making a ton of money off of their canoes. I think they will still be living 8 to a house, and driving around in a crappy Toyota truck, even after building canoes. But I do know that they are trying to streamline the process so at least the wait time will go down.
#4 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 7:29am
Supply and demand isn't controlled by the supplier. Why supply something if there's no demand? On the other side why would you hold back production to raise the price if you can make more profit by selling more boats. Quality always has it's price. Remember Mountain bikes were regular bikes modified by guys bouncing down fire roads in the Bay area. From there it evolved into the current craze with cheap bikes available at Costco. Would you race on a Costco bike. I doubt it.
Same thing happened when the first guy (praise to him) strapped a couple of iakos and an ama to a surfski.
Our 1 man market hasn't gotten to the point yet where there is a demand for cheap boats intended for the recreational type of consumer. That type of demand allows the manufacturer to make enough profit to allow for more research and development and most of all being able to reduce prices for the higher end products.
We are still a small market where I'd be scared to put out a mass product laying around after a while due to obsolescence. By going to China they eventually will be able to come around to make more economical boats.
We may think there is a lot of demand, but world wide, how many paddlers are there?? 1000, 5000, 10,000?
Certainly less folks then the millions of bike riders for example.
If we can go "olympic" that picture would change dramatically. Interest would grow exponentially.
Short of that, patience is all we got and for a consolation price the knowledge of being pioneers in our sport.
Mahalo
#5 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 7:39am
If you're just getting started buy a used boat. There's no need for a new top-of-the-line boat at that point. Depending on where you are you can usually find used boats that fit your budget.
The fact is even when you spend 3 grand on a boat if you use it enough in the right conditions you'll think it's the best money you ever spent.
#6 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 8:29am
Yeah man get a used one so when you crash the reef, eat it surfing waves, drop it on the ground, bang the walls carrying it in your yard, or have your friend crash into you its no big deal. Then when you get all that out of your system, go buy the expensive one. Oh yeah true stories. I guess its a testament to how well karels boats are made. mine still it in pretty good condition after all that.
#7 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 9:01am
Just to be clear....Im not condeming the builders. Most of them seem to produce beautiful boats. Is that true about 12-24 month wait? Can anyone confirm that? Any builders out there who want to give an honest idea of how long it takes to get the canoe once its been ordered?
#8 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 9:19am
Alright...i guess I am starting to sound like a whinner, but I live in the pac. northwest. Needless to say there are no used boats for sale. And when you can finally one they go for a preimum price and are in pretty bad shape.
yeah I know.....boo hoo.
#9 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 9:50am
talk to goto, he'll sell you his boto
#10 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 9:53am
Sweet, I'm always up for more boto! Maybe he'll let me take it out and give his boto a few good strokes before I buy it though. I always hate to get on something without giving it few strokes first.
Poopss
#11 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 10:06am
jazz4, There are plenty of new boats available up here. J.D. in Stevenson-Google "waterwalkers"- Also a couple dealers up in Vancouver, that market would be your most likely place to find a used one.
#12 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 7:02pm
well wait lists aside i was told three months for a boat built in hawaii,the problem is everyone wants it now plus the cost is about 500 more then one built in china which i would gladly pay to keep our boys busy since they also paddle as well and need to make a living.
#13 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 8:58am
Thanks for the tip Jim. Headed up to B.C. in a couple of weeks and will poke around. Tried the "waterwalkers" and just got a bunch of shoes to "walk on water". Any other ideas?
#14 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 9:29am
3 months for a handmade boat? Maybe it's who you know. But I'm pretty sure if you want a new Wai Nui, Scorpius, Pegasus, or Zephyr you are going to wait a long damn time (12-24 months). Might be shorter for Vantage, Nia Iki, or Waveblade.
#15 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 10:08am
JD is in Carson, WA (about 10mi. east of Stevenson,WA, in the Columbia River Gorge). Check out www.nwoutrigger.com, his email is on there. He sells new and does lots of demos. He also sells some used OC1's - when he's got em.
#16 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 11:26am
Jazz, Jim, Fart and all,
Join us in Vancouver BC on October 21 from 10-2 at Jericho Beach. we'll be doing an end of season demo day - a chance to try paddles from Kialoa and the full range of Hypr canoes.
look for the white tents...
lots of fun, giveaways from some of our suppliers and a special Vancouver appearance by GOTO for pics and autographs. ( either that or he's in town working that Craig's list thang) :)
Jazz4 if you're in town, hope to see you there!
Roscoe
www.outrigger.ca
#17 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 1:30pm
I wonder why no one has come up with a rotomolded OC1 yet.
Give the market time.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer a ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#18 Thu, 11/01/2007 - 5:24pm
What's with the echo?
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#19 Thu, 11/01/2007 - 5:25pm
Taiki in Japan has a roto-molded oc1. Don't know how he's doing with it, but it looks like it would be fun to charge some surf breaks.
I need to fix the echo thing with the signature. Best just to delete your signature if it shows up in the text box.
#20 Thu, 11/01/2007 - 7:30pm
what oc1 are we using for ivf world sprints trails
#21 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 2:14am
Saw Tiger in August while he was back in Kona visiting. He told me he was making the OC1's again this year for the sprints.
#22 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 3:15am
I just got a mold and tried a ama glass hand lay up and will be trying a boat lay up soon.i would say 2.5 days of playing around with the ama and maby 150$ if you could get a hold of a mold that might be a way to go.
#23 Wed, 11/21/2007 - 6:31pm
mulus, whose molds did you get a hold of?
#24 Thu, 11/22/2007 - 4:43pm
It was called C lion or turned into C lion. this particular mold was a few generations back. and the original maker was Dee Van Wi nkle - California. I’m sure if you asked around there’s used molds out there. This one was farley inexpensive. I have heard of some being given away.
#25 Fri, 11/23/2007 - 9:31pm
Hey Mulus.....will you let others build out of your "new" mold?
#26 Sat, 11/24/2007 - 8:58am
do you have plastic backgoud?where are you from?
#27 Sat, 11/24/2007 - 4:35pm
Yes, Ive been in "aerospace" composites for over 20 years. Built the first Americas Cup carbon mast and boom. Im a certified composite tech. Ive built over 150 outriggers, Surfskis and paddleboards. Helped start one of the first carbon snowboard companies. Ive had a boat repair business (BoatAid)here in socal for 3 years. My composite work has been featured on many concept vehicles, has competed in F1, Le Mans, Many regattas, seen combat in Iraq, Afganistan, and orbits the Earth. Can I build now? Hahahaha.....Just kidding, I dont wanna use your mold. Just wondered if you'd make it availabe to (qualified) others?
#28 Sat, 11/24/2007 - 5:58pm
...
#29 Sat, 11/24/2007 - 9:40pm
sure if they hade a plastics knolege we could make some sort of trade.
#30 Sun, 11/25/2007 - 3:00pm
I agree.
#31 Sun, 11/25/2007 - 8:27pm
layaway
#32 Mon, 11/26/2007 - 7:24am
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I think there's a place to list all your accomplishments in your "personal paddling profile". You might want to petition Keizo to make it bigger though. I think the limit on accomplishments is like, 1000 words or less.
#33 Mon, 11/26/2007 - 8:51am
We are toying with the the idea of a 90 day same as cash, as well as a leasing option, I would love to know who would buy this way? That would not buy if the option were not available, Send me a private message and let me know,
#34 Mon, 11/26/2007 - 11:15am
If you can't afford a canoe at $3500.00 I understand. So Join a club that has club canoes - My club has over 20 plus oc-1's and you paddle in your time slot and you sign the boat out for races.- all for a mere $250.00 a year ! It works - most people when they can afford a new boat do buy one - then they have to find a place to store it. ...
But as for offering terms for oc-1 sales ( don't we have enough debt in this world already ?) You know boat builders are boat builders - they are not banks !
#35 Mon, 11/26/2007 - 5:17pm
I'm not saying I would be the bank / lender, That would be stupid. However there are companies that work with small busnesses to create small lines of credit. Just like your Home depot credit card. You sign up and can get 1-12 monts of zero percent finacing. Same as cash. In So Cal joinging a club with club boats is not an option for most, I know of only two clubs that have boats available.
we here a lot about how expensive the boats are and that the builders need to lower the costs. How about the paddlers lower the standards, Not the standard in which the boats are made, quality, components etc, But the materials. The paddlers want light boats made of carbon which is expensive, If we would except a fiberglass or roto molded boat we could bring the cost down, I get calls from individuals that want to get into paddling, One very common statement is that they are brand new and that they don't need the best boat. Unfortunatelly there really is no entry or mid level boat available. Yes there are builders that wil make a fiberglass boat or special lay-up. But for the most part this is not the norm, Primarilly because the stigma attached to a Heavy (28 lbs hull+) To the new paddler a 28 lb hull or about 35 lbs rigged is light. Is there a place for the ultra light boats, Of course, But I think we need to be more accepting of the heavy cost effective boats as well.
#36 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 6:16am
There's a guy in my club who paddles the sh*t out of a 40 lb. non-vacuum bagged, fiberglass one-man, and he's pretty fast.
...bad attitude, but still fast.
#37 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 7:32am
Ocean Ohana -
I know that it is not the materials that are costly( especially fiberglass) It is the man hours to make an Oc-1 . It takes time and they are indeed tricky. That is where your cost is ! That is why so many manufacturers went to china - Cheap labour = pretty good product - some price discount to the consumer,,, but not alot.
So then the question is : Can these manufacturers make cheaper boats - ship them to NA ( costly ) then have a dealer take their percentage - and then offer a $2000.00 plus boat to the consumer... I guess it all depends on the volume of sales.. and outrigger is still a niche sport . Our numbers don't compare to other sports like sea kayaking or skiing.
#38 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 7:35am
Hmmmm aquafiend, you mean to tell me after that long list of accomplishments you can't afford $3000? I would think someone that did all you say you did would be rich. What I mean is if you have the means to orbit the earth they by golly I'd assume you can afford a $3000 boat. I guess bitches and booze gets expensive....
#39 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 7:40am
I think a lot of people who own OC-1s can't afford a $3500 boat....but they get one anyway. That's not priviledged, its a little bit of sacrifice with a whole lotta akamai. I've never met anyone who has chosen the right boat for their needs, to begrudge the money they spent.
#40 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 9:16am
Hey poopoo,
The point of my thread (and the "top ten") was to generate dialogue and ideas about a better boat and a better way to make it accessible to more people. Perhaps a cheaper/heavier boat, financing options, who knows. As a designer/builder Im just gathering info for a new approach.
#41 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 9:57am
When I reflect on this thread and the other one started by OceanOhana, I think about the bicycle industry. No matter what there will still be top of the line stuff that people will follow, throw money at and want. There are mountain/road bikes that cost $12,000 dollars and more that serious bike people dream about-as I currently do about the Scorpius, Zephyr, etc. On the other hand I recently bought a new mountain bike made of Aluminum that used to cost $5000 for $300. And I bet some bikers used to get divorced over spending so much money on a bike. I ride around laughing to myself thinking shit I got a bike that people use to spend so much money on and then I see people biking by on $9000 mountain bikes and road bikes and don’t care one bit and don’t give a ***, because it isn’t my passion.
Does this mean OC-1’s will eventually cost $500 dollars. The answer is no, because OC-1 is currently a very specialized sport like Hang Gliding, White Water Kayaking, Sky Diving etc. And I think will continue to be. You can jump on a bike from your home and just bike around. Not like paddling. Load boat, plan to meet up, shuttle, rig boat, find good run, go into dangerous water(for the non-water person) un rig, wash boat, go home 4 hours later.
I see canoes dropping to $2000 for the base model and getting more specialized on the high end up to $4500 or more. And to be honest the base models will be safer.
Now all I have to figure out is what will the next cutting edge OC-1 construction material will be, invest in it, and retire. Imagine if you put $20,000 in to carbon fiber 15 years ago.
#42 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:38am
We are already paying around $4500 USA money now for OC1's in Australia.
Fuze/Fusion is US$4410 (Chinese)
Hurricane is US$4320 (Chinese)
and that's with a favourable dollar exchange.
Our local made canoes are around US$3900
Cheers Rambo
#43 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 10:56am
Hey Rambo.....how do the Hawaiian/chinese compare with the Aussie canoes?
KonaJ, you'd have to go back about 50 years to be on the eve of Carbon Technology. As for the new materials....it will most likely be prepregs. The thing that will probably be revolutionized is molding techniques. And the $2000 canoe will not be the safer.....it will be made of the cheapest materiasl available, and the least skilled labor. Granted I agree that your $300 mountain bike is superior to that of a $300 bike of 10-15 years ago, advancements in metalurgy and manufacturing techniques have created new (cheaper, but not necessarily better) materials and ways to fabricate...i.e. robotic welders.
#44 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 11:45am
The overall cost to own a good canoe is really pretty low if you breakdown the cost of ownership over the length of time you plan to own the canoe. If your canoe costs $3500. and you keep it for 10 years , that`s $350. per year . If you sell the canoe , you can deduct the selling price from the original purchase price and the cost of ownership goes way lower.
Most of the used canoes I see for sale are going for a pretty high dollar amount.
What I want to know is how you people in Hawaii can afford to live there.
When I get the information I need , I`m moving out there too.
Don`t forget to send your tax exempt dollars to Fuzeriders Oahu housing fund.
#45 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 1:10pm
see that epic elit 6000 + 8KG too far . hu
#46 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 5:24pm
Hahahaha.....mulus my friend, what the hell are you talking about:-)
#47 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 5:40pm
Epic Kayaks is making a version of the V10 surfski that weighs 8kg (about 17lbs). surfski.info ran a contest and the winner is being flown to Dubai to compete in a race, and gets to race in and take home one of these boats. The contest info said the boat has a $6500 value. I'm gonna say that I would be completely stoked to win that but theres no way I would pay that much money for a boat ever. My Kaimana weighs about 22 pounds and on the water I can't feel the difference between mine and my friends whose is a few pounds heavier. Danny Chings Kaimana that he races in California has a hull that weighs in at about 24 pounds. He still goes out and kills everyone here upwind, downwind sidewind, backwards so on so forth.
#48 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 6:26pm
isn't there supposed to be some new model of kaimana coming out? does anyone know what the updates or changes are?
#49 Tue, 11/27/2007 - 6:29pm
yea boats are exspensive, but u cant do anything about it and its not gonna change or be cheap, yes they take a while to make with the demand. everybody wants there boat so fast, imagine if builders didnt take their time and made low quality boats but u got them right away? the same group of people here would start a new post talking about how low quality their boats are and start complaing about something else, hmmm i see a patern here
#50 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 4:58am