Flatwater Competition OC 1

How about flatwater competition for OC1 ?

Many of the recent posts are related to the Tahitian performance in the Molokai Hoe. What's their secret ? How about flatwater endurance ?

In Hawaii it has to be a downwind surfrun to be considered paddling.
I agree with that to a degree: the skill of reading the water correctly is indeed an art, respect to those who have mastered it.
However, where are the sprints ? Surely they are paddling; explosive strength, endurance and good technique are essential to be good in the flat.

Here is a proposal:

OC 1 sprint competition

500 m, 1000 m, 2000 m

A series of qualifiers ending in the state championship.

What do you think ? I can see quite a few arguments in favor.

Submitted by eckhart on Thu, 10/11/2007 - 11:38am



The new super association would have flat water sprints, open ocean, and long distance. Sounds like we got all the bases covered. Would the flat water races feature rudderless canoes? That would be great preparation for world sprints.

If that were case, there would be a market for rudderless canoes too. Now we just need someone to start making those locally...


#1 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 12:17pm


That's it, jc9_0

Here is a complete season:

OC 6:
Short distance Regatta Series April June
Championship mid June

Long distance Regatta Cup Series
Kailua Iron
Dukes
Big Boy
Queen's
Henry's

Molokai Hoe

OC 1:
Sprints Cup Series - Nov - Jan
Open Championship Ala Wai Jan
500 m
1000 m
2000 m

Kankaka Ikaika/Paa Cup Series Jan - Mar
Championship April
Hawaii Kai - Kaimana/ Magic Island
Makai Pier - Kaimana/ Magic Island

Open Ocean Cup Series April
Coastal Relay
Molokai Relay
Molokai Solo

'Cup' - a point score ranking, based on results, either as qualifier or as overall series winner etc. I think that all long distance races should be upgraded, not only be seen as warm up races; it's only fair and makes it more competitive.

I actually do think that you need a sprint series. because if it were an olympic sport you would have sprints as a discipline - it's more markatable, telegenic, entertaining etc.
The sprint series could also harbor OC 6, Surfski and Kayak, rudderless.

PS: I would stick with rudders; I am sure we would all come up with a mini rudder for the sprint series anyway.


#2 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 1:54pm


In the Na Wahine O` Ke Kai race the first place Jr. Masters women were all flatwater marathon paddlers from Minnesota , Michigan ,Wisconsin , Maine , Ontario and Saskachewan.

Practicing on flatwater is very time efficient , no car shuttles , no trade winds to paddle against, no waves to speak of . So, you can spend more time working on things like endurance , technique , intervals.

Its not always a total blast to do the hard work in the boat but , its certainly fun to go fast in the big races in Hawaii.


#3 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 2:20pm


iam down with flat water paddling................


#4 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 5:39pm


now we just need someone to give countless unpaid hours to running this new association...


#5 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 8:09pm


Any guess what the participation in a sprint race day/series might be ?

If there is sufficient interest I would offer some of the countless volunteer hours.

btw no escort boats needed,


#6 Thu, 10/11/2007 - 8:19pm


sounds like a good idea except most paddlers look to long distance as the only true gage of a paddlers skills and abilities.olympic events considered i would agree we need sprits just for spectator sake and media coverage.i feel so excited that we have posts like this talking about possibilities of professional levels in paddling.


#7 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 8:52am


Yet people go to and participate at the World Sprints; Jim and John Foti have performed there real well in the past, including wins. There you have true top paddlers.
The claim that it's not really paddling seems self-serving.
I think that it would become highly competitive; in the heats you paddle against the very best; and those have to do all that is needed to stay ahead.
Overall: you add explosive strength/endurance to the mix, that will improve overall performance levels.

I find it very exciting to watch kayak, canoe sprint world cup, olympics etc on you tube, OC sprints would be just as exiting..
You get a terrific look at different techniques, abilities.

There seems to be enough interest in the World Sprints 2008. It seems therefore that people like to compete in sprints also.
Yet people are weary to fly to Sacramento for this. So why not do it here. And as everybody has an OC1 with rudder already, let's use what we have.

Many can't commit to club training for conflicting schedules; sprint races would allow them to compete and may be a wonderful solution.

Questions: who shares this interest ? How do you find out about it ? Who has tried - and failed - to set this up in the past; why ? etc.


#8 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 10:55am


I bet a flat water series would be a big draw for teen paddlers fresh from their high school season and parents would probably feel more comfortable allowing them to compete on a closed course rather than waving goodbye as they leave Hawaii Kai for Kaimana. Flat water paddling, while probably not the favorite of those who surf (and excell in the waves), might open the door for new talent. How about a time-trial event on the Ala Wai? Magic Island to the library and back. A paddler, surf ski or OC1, could leave every three minutes just like a bicycle race. It's all variety, something different.


#9 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 1:01pm


Format: olympic
same standards as for k, c and rowing.


#10 Fri, 10/12/2007 - 1:52pm


what oc1 are we using for ivf world sprints trails


#11 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 2:11am


rudderless tiger oc1, i heard


#12 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 5:50am


there are a lot of advantages on training flat water, specially on fresh water rivers having 1 to 3knots currents against you, it gives you an edge on mental strenth specially because is the antithesis of good fun yahoo downwind blasts.
usually a happy midlle makes the right path, is very normal to get spolied by the seek of the ultimate surf-run, connecting the dots and paddling high on adrenaline rush, however to balance a bit with some "sacrifice-run" flat or even worse, against currents for a change will help make you complete.

main thing, have fun right?
live aloha!


#13 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 6:42am


Is the entry for the World Sprints closed if you do not participate in the Oahu try outs ?

We had the feeling that participation was not encouraged - 75 $ fee for try out, no advertisement, registration closed long ago, nobody new about it .

Any information would be appreciated.

Back to the topic: I had hoped that there would be more enthusiasm regarding
a flat water racing series. A series may be a littlebit too much to ask for - but how about two or three demo races ?
We seem to be quite disconnected from World Sprints; I am quite sure that if you were to become Olympic, you would need to be racing on the flats in lanes; no waves in Moskwa, Roma, Madrid you name it.


#14 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 11:50am


Eckhart, you should just get yourself a rudderless v1 from Tiger and enter the world's as an individual. That way, you don't have to deal with any undedicated Hawaiian team-mates, or trouble yourself learning how to paddle better in the big blue Moana.


#15 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 2:15pm


who u thinks going to win the ivf world sprints trails v1 open men


#16 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 3:29pm


Lewis Laughlin


#17 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 3:51pm


Jim, that was on a different thread. Sorry if I have offended you, that wasn't my intent. Sure I'd like to be better in the ocean; it takes time.

Four kayakers in the US national team are from Kailau, windward Oahu, and that is impressive.
In contrast, I think that you will agree that in general, youth work etc. in OC 1 paddling is not at Olympic levels but for a few.

Take the try outs for the ivf world sprints. Nobody really knows about it; a few may train for it, but it's not really of interest.
Naturally Hawaiian paddlers like the surf because that is what we have. For Olympics you will have to train in flat water as those races would be in lanes.
If there is no 'culture' reagerding flat water paddling then it may be difficult to compete when the time comes.

The main argument is, to train in the flats also to get better overall with regards to international competition. It's not an argument against surf runs.


#18 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 9:04pm


google:

world sprint + ivf + 2008 + hawaii trials

for info about registration etc.


#19 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 8:22pm


does anyone think aaron abbey is going to win the ivf
world sprints trails v1 open men


#20 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 8:29pm


according to the pdf online, you can still do a late entry for the paltry sum of $100 per paddler


#21 Sat, 11/03/2007 - 11:58pm


No worries, Eck! Just funnin'. Actually I always enjoy reading what you have to say about training etc. You really seem to know what you're talking about, I base my training on your 20, 30 or 40 miles per week rule of thumb. It's good to have fresh perspectives like yours in the forum.


#22 Sun, 11/04/2007 - 8:02am


That's good to hear, Jim. What do you think of 20, 30, 40 ? I feel that is about right for someone who wants to get more involved. We try to do fourty, but when it is less, well at least you have kept your level.

It wonder if Rambo uses his Rambocam to improve his technique ?
Is anybody using video ?

A good shoulderturn is so easy in front of a mirror; when you watch other paddlers, including the best, I always wonder where that famous shoulderturn actually is. :)


#23 Sun, 11/04/2007 - 5:50pm


Speaking from a coaching point of view. I'd have to say video is a great tool for technique work. Sometimes you can talk to an paddler till you're blue in the face about what needs to change. Then magically, when they see themselves on screen, changes happen almost instantly.


#24 Sun, 11/04/2007 - 11:21pm


Eckhart said ...
I wonder if Rambo uses his Rambocam to improve his technique ?

I did more so in the learning years along with GPS. But technique seems to fly out the window when doing downwind runs, you do what ever you have too, to maintain speed or pull over a bump. Timing and explosiveness i think are more productive, than perfect technique here.

On the flat, absolutely efficient technique is King for maintaining max hull speed and conserving energy.

It is amazing to watch yourself on video and discover that the aforementioned "shoulder twist" or reach, is nowhere near what you thought it was. What you perceive in your mind is not always correct. Video is a great leveler and bad habits are hard to shake.

My coach is always telling me in time trials where other paddlers are next too you, to drop the rating, but maintain the same speed. You do this by "feeling" the waters resistance and the canoes glide and removing any inefficiencies in the power circle between paddle (buried) - arm - shoulder/back - core - legs and the connection to the canoe thru heals and butt.

Yup, it's difficult to do and takes years to develop, but pays off because most paddlers won't spend the time and take the short cuts.

Old injuries and inflexibility play a big part in what you can achieve, but everyone can benefit from a weekly technique session and timely evaluation.

Cheers Rambo


#25 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 12:45am


I come from a US National Team level rowing background. Technique, power, efficiency, Vo2, and a never-ending desire to work hard are keys to moving a boat on flat water in a sprint format. In my collegiate and national team years, my coaches would video my crew 1 or 2 times a week. After practice we would have a 1/2 to 1 hour video session to review every athletes rowing technique. As an athlete, I would learn from watching myself on video and hearing the coaches input; as well, I'd learn how to row better just by hearing the coaches critique of other paddlers and what they have to do to correct the issues (at a video session or on the water).

On another topic in this thread; if you want to do sprint time trials on the canal in Oahu then you can follow a rowing "head race" format. Determine the length of the race (in rowing, a head race is usually 3 miles; for paddling, and this thread, it could be 500M, 1K, or 2K, whatever fits the need); start one paddler at a time with a minimum of a 10 seconds time gap between paddlers (typically, the race organizer would start the fastest paddlers 1st and the slower ones last; this minimizes the amount of passing).

Ross Flemer

Ps> I'm envious of the speed Hawaiian’s display in the surf! I’ve also seen some pretty fast Hawaiian’s on the flats. Keep it up ...


#26 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 7:25am


Yo eckhart, im interested in this 20, 30, 40. Can you shine some light?
So, if you cant do 40 miles, then shoot for 30, if not 30 then 20... but then 30 or 40 next week etc etc...?


#27 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:08am


I think it went something like this:
20= stay the same, 30= see some improvement, 40+=see alot of improvement.
Also he says highest level requires 20+ hrs. per week, for ten years straight or so. Sounds about right. In my case, I'd probably die midway through the first 20 hr week. I found the 40 miles a week thing to be pretty right on- had my best results in summer w/ this program. It sounds like alot, but I was doing it w/ 2 ten milers or so during the week and one macker on Saturdays-not all that hard to pull off. I just kept thinking about that woman who paddled the whole East Coast and it made a 3-5 hr session seem minor by comparison. It's cold and dark where I live now so I'm back to 0-10 miles per week w/ lots of drunk football watching as cross-training.


#28 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 11:28am


Word. Lil bit of binging on my side as well, putting back on the pounds, maybe getting 10 miles a week.
Trying to calculate what I can pull off in the upcoming 1man season without loosing business and having time for family. I'd be stoked to train 20 hours a week, but unrealistic (4 hours a day for 5 days? damn).
20,30,40 is prolly what I cycle through during the 1 man season, unconsciously.
I'm all for the flat water sprints, personally I know I perform better in sprints then in LD. You can overcome some of the boat, size ratio, technique and lack of time for training issues with "in the moment" performance and explosive power.
Look at 100m sprinters vs marathon runners, different sport all together, but who hold the title as "fastest man on earth"? Not the marathon runner.


#29 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 1:31pm


Im a world record holder in a dragon boat. haha


#30 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 8:48pm


20, 30, 40 - was just an observation;

Not really enough time to paddle, get out x three a week, one run a little longer = 20 miles. That's two days one hour and one day two hours.

If you have the time to get out regularly, you end up with 30 miles.

If you plan for races and also paddle when you do not want to paddle, you come closer to 40. For this I usually aim at 8 miles/session compared to 6.
Makes five sessions. Two days at dawn, three days in the afternoon.
It's doable, skip TV or internet surfing - there it is, all the time you need.

I was thinking of flat water races, because I think that parents with kids would get an opportunity to do this together and watch each other. I think you can get as excited in a series of short races.

A long ride on the opem ocean is absolutely special, no doubt. Sometimes I would prefer the short option though, mainly to have family at the race site.
Basically the same as short distance season, but OC 1, kayak, OC2 etc..
Followed by a little barbecue.


#31 Mon, 11/05/2007 - 9:32pm


what oc6 are we using for the ivf world sprints trails


#32 Tue, 11/06/2007 - 1:39am


Hi everybody
I'm from Tahiti and to answer the first post of this topic, there is NO secret... except training. The top teams train at least twice a day. They train when it's hot or cold, when it's sunny or stormy. They train on flatwater, do some down wind runs but also paddle upwind. They go paddling and training even if topday is their kid's or their wife's birthday. Each one of those paddler could steer the OC6 because they all paddle in the ocean on rudderless OC1.
You see, no secret.
In Tahiti, we don't really understand thepoint with having a rudder on a canoe. We either paddle rudderless canoes or surfski's.
Do not take this as an offense but we think it's strange. You care so much about tradition when talking about OC6. And you are so far from it when talking about OC1...
In Tahiti it's the opposite. We have high tech efficient OC6 and stone age OC1... Quite strange ?


#33 Tue, 11/06/2007 - 11:47pm


I got an idea about a rudderless race. we should make a race in kaneohe bay start it from kualoa or chinamenshat stay inside the bay to the last buoy on the other side bay and come back on the out side of the sandbar but in between kipapa island and pau at chinamenshat. it will give us a good up and down wind run . I say we make a rudderless race because hawaii needs it if were going to compete with tahiti's oneman races.and I heard luke and kelly them is going to start making tahitian rudderless boats.


#34 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 1:05am


Hiro G said ......Do not take this as an offense but we think it’s strange. You care so much about tradition when talking about OC6. And you are so far from it when talking about OC1…
In Tahiti it’s the opposite. We have high tech efficient OC6 and stone age OC1… Quite strange ?

Hiro G, that's a great observation and very true. The competition between the many Va'a constructors in Tahiti is incredible fierce and their craft continually evolves, with great honour going to the designer.

One can only be impressed by the rudderless surfing skills of the Tahitian V1 paddlers.

Watch this small video of the skills in action.

http://rambos-locker.blogspot.com/2007/11/rudderless-vaa-surfing-skills-...

Cheers Rambo


#35 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 11:32am


So are kayaks in Tahiti rudderless as well?


#36 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 12:37pm


What about cows are they utterless too?

Ok that was just lame.


#37 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 12:58pm


You can find som videos there :

http://www.vaatahiti.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&i...

Of course our surfski's are rudderless. They are even paddleless...
I didn't get the cow thing ??? My english is not good enough to understand every joke.


#38 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 6:17pm


I think he meant udderless, Hiro. You know, mammary glands, li' dat.


#39 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 6:40pm


HiroG , can you confirm the Surfskis are rudderless??

I have seen some pictures of rudderless skis, but Tahiti is also making ruddered surfski now also.

Please confirm.

Cheers Rambo


#40 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 6:50pm


Thanks for the info Eckhart.

I think rudderless is going to be big here in Hawaii too, mahalo for sharing your thougths Hiro.
I lost my rudder recently and had to paddle without, now im not using peddles as much, cut down drag. It also brings a steering element to 1man that reminds me of steering 6man. Fun stuff.

If you have hurricane, just remove the rudder in a minute and take it for a spin.


#41 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 8:16pm


It must be the difference in wind/wave conditions that led to rudderless in Tahiti and rudder in Hawaii.
The South African surfskis have rudders, too. Sailing is done with/without rudder, also depending on the conditions.

The surfing video is not an open ocean run witrh chop from various angles, no strong wind.
I am not sure that rudderless would work all that well in Hawaiian conditions; for flat water they are obviously better.


#42 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 9:09pm


Eckhart, i think you will find it has more to do with cultural and environmental reasons, than just wind and waves. Traditionally the Tahitians had no need to venture outside of the Lagoons to source food, unlike Hawaii where Lagoon's are scarce, so their modes of sea transport evolved into simple craft. (ever had a rudder malfunction at sea, almost as bad as loosing a paddle).

Having said that, rudders on the modern Hawaiian OC1 evolved from surfskis and in fact OC1 is becoming more like surfski every day, except it obviously has an Ama and one blade for propulsion and no need for secondary stability.

Tahiti is warming to rudder-ed Oc1 more every day and in fact are being made there as we speak. When skilled rudderless Tahitian paddlers decide they would like to add rudder-ed skills to their quill, you will see more of the likes of Lewis Laughlin in the Molo Solo and relay and then we will need to lift our game.

Cheers Rambo


#43 Wed, 11/07/2007 - 11:22pm


What do you think then, can you paddle a rudderless canoe /effectively in Hawaiian conditions outside the reefs ? I haven't taken a rudderless canoe into the waves yet; We only have a handful of rudderless on Oahu, difficult to get hold of one.
I mean you don't do mountain biking with a road bike; does that apply to rudder/rudderless too ?


#44 Thu, 11/08/2007 - 11:39am


I've tried my Hurricane rudderless and i'm hopeless.

We have a manufacture here in Australia who is making aTahitian Va'a (1man ) for our local market. Whether they take off or not i don't know, but i hope so, as i think it is a great skill to possess and can only further the growth of Outrigger paddling.

Cheers Rambo


#45 Thu, 11/08/2007 - 12:01pm


Rambo, the rudderless surfski was a joke. The only rudderless surfsi I saw in Tahiti was when a friend lost his rudder in the ocean because it was unscrewed...
Most ocean kayaks are rudderless... I guess that paddling a ski without a rudder like nemo did must be benefic as you must improve your skills and learn to place your ski better.


#46 Sun, 11/11/2007 - 9:26pm


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