For quite sometime there has been but one choice for purchasing an outrigger. Perhaps its the best way, but that is not the point of this post. My question is, if you had an opportunity to rent, lease, or finance an outrigger, would you pay $150/mo? $200/mo? $250/mo? $300? What would be a comfortable monthly payment for those who cannot afford to plunk down $4000?
Submitted by aquafiend65 on Wed, 11/28/2007 - 9:11am
aquafiend, when are you going to start selling boats?
#1 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 10:08am
Depends. Im structuring a business plan. If the numbers are right, I begin R&D. When the boat is perfected Ill mold it, set up a shop and build. Could be 6 months, could be more.
#2 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 10:21am
Leasing and financing are probably out of the question. Strange thing happen. Boats can get destroyed or blown out to sea. Then you have to pay for something you don't have, that you couldn't afford in the first place.
#3 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 10:24am
same can be said about your car or house or computer or whatever else you might finance.. earthquakes, or fires, or drunk drivers, list goes on.
being "niche" have its quaintness, but it's limiting for those who want to try to actually make a living off the sport- builder or athlete..
the economics will probably drive whether it's workable or not, but in the meantime, if any builder or rep want to explore it, more power to them...
#4 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 2:42pm
I wrote a business plan, got a grant for the first one and the company I got to start production the canoes lost interest probably financially. but I managed to get a old mold am trying on my own. This has been going on for over 2 years. They say this is a fickle business[ Making race single] here today gone tomorrow for canoes . I guess one canoe at a time from here on. I have to get it in front somehow and then it will sell itself. wish me luck. and all them big canoe building companies started in a garage some where. I want a line of canoes.heres a pic of my attempt at a ama
#5 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 2:51pm
I get the feeling most of you are relatively new to the sport. The deal with why the boats are so expensive, why there is a long wait and why the boats are being made in china is this: With the price of oil going up the price of carbon fiber has gone up also. On top of that china is consuming the majority. The supply coming in to the U.S. is limited and being rationed to the military, airplane and auto manufactures. Boat builders are regularly running out of carbon fiber and have to wait a month or two to get more, hence the long wait. It's not so much that the demand has gone up but their ability to produce boats has gone down. Builders have moved production to china to try and solve this problem.
Regarding Mulus' comment about big canoe building companies: (with the exception of Tiger) here on the islands it is just a couple of guys and some severely run down buildings-- no big companies anywhere to be found!
#6 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 9:46pm
Since I know very little about exactly how these seemingly incredibly high tech descendants of the hollowed out outrigger canoe of yore come to be...I guess I can ask all the stupid questions I care to. (Have at least seen photos of boats coming out of molds, etc. in the local shops and, well, the most impressive looking thing in the photos is the boat itself!)
One thing that occurs to me is that the containers of boats from the China shops seem to be full of mostly A I R!
Could more efficient shipping of component hull halves be accomplished if final assembly could be done in Hawaii or mainland? The tops and bottoms of the canoes could be "nested" and the container shipped more to capacity of material/product and not air. Then the importer/dealers can do more to match color combo requests and develop service personnel to do repairs all that sort of thing.
Mahalo for you guys time and aloha!
#7 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 10:24pm
The joining of the deck and hull is best done while both parts are in there respective molds, allowing the matching key joints in the molds to align the seem properly. Also many builder use A/B foam to attach the strongback or at least half of it, the foam itself can create upwards of 15psi of pressure so once again being in the mold during the "closing" process helps prevent deformation, even though most boats get some distortion when the foam heats up in the sun once out of the mold. Also the internal flange (Brint Bixler's design) most of us Hawaii builders use depends on the boat being closed in the mold.
#8 Wed, 11/28/2007 - 11:49pm
It's just not practical Gulf inlander for the reasons Waterboy808 stated. Also, once removed from the mold the halves are very floppy and still "green" (curing). If they are not supported by the mold or deck and hull joined together, then they will cure all twisted and the original symmetrical shape will be lost. Hardly ideal for a hi-tech race canoe.
Cheers Rambo
#9 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 12:34am
Rambo
could a person lay up glass boats and make them safe and under 40 lbs?
#10 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 12:56am
Plenty of 34lb glass oc1's around Mulus and plenty safe too if they are made correctly. But it's not what the market wants, so why bother making them,
Different situation in Argentine with our friend Mariano, as he said carbon is so expensive there and OC is still in it's infancy, so cheap entry into the sport is needed. Not so in Canada where you are.
Keep on experimenting and building canoes if it interests you, it's a fun thing to do. But do your homework if you aim to make it a business, there are many challenges and limited opportunities.
If it's your passion .. follow it.
Good Luck
Cheers Rambo
#11 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 1:17am
yep Rambo, down here there are no oc-1 market yet, so if i start the production of a u$d6000.- state of the art oc-1 i will have no followers and end up paddling alone.
thats why we will start by building 35pounders handglessed regular fiberglass how its used to be 15 years ago on that side of the globe. nothing wrong with that considering we mostly will abuse them at the clubs and showing them around in demos so the people get to know there is a sport called OUTRIGGER-VA'A.
eventually it sure will be fun to ride 22 pounders with 20 knots tradeswinds.........YAHOO!!
aloha nui!!
#12 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 3:19am
Thanks Rambo
the first thing i wanted to fill is the need at our club we have 3 oc1’s and only one race one and at least 10 interested paddlers that would like to make it to the sprints this summer in Cali. and in Canada maybe 10 times that or 20 that. but no rudderless Vaa' sold here. and if we were to order them the cost for our club would be up there but there is a little knish market up here.
The thing I was wondering can I put maybe roving and 6 oz cloth in the hull and 6 oz cloth and mat on the deck join them with tape on the outside without the stringers on the inside the mold we have is a cockpit stile vaa. And I would put a kicking board and a wall under the seat . But no bells or whistles just hand layer glass with polyester resin. It would be use in calm conditions but with . O ya I wanted to lay up with no gel coat and I asked a friend of mine who paints cars to put a coat on them he said sure he just wants stickers on them and he would give me decent price. I had success with the ama like this.
#13 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 7:13am
I think at some point you have to realize that the coast of an inexperienced person building a boat out of polyester is about the same as building a boat out of epoxy. There is much more skill involved in making a polyester boat then an epoxy boat, and the learning curve is a lot steeper. That is not to say it cant be done i have made plenty of boats out of polyester and fiberglass. I would suggest a lay-up schedule of 1x4oz,1x6oz, a 1.5mm core mate (the Baltic 1mm is really 1.5) and a 6oz to finish off the sandwich. I would alwasy reinforce the seat/footwells and any other place that was stressed with 10oz. There is really no need for mat, lots of people think so but the print through is minimal with the 4oz as your first layer. I also think that 4oz lays down better in a mold for a newbee then the matt, just keep your scissor with you and don't be afraid to make cuts as you go.
#14 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 8:57am
I received a personal message asking why i thought that Epoxy as easer then Poly lam because epoxy vacuum bagging has many more variables that make is just as complicating. The answer is simple, Working with poly resin you must catalyze it, this is a skill that many of us have taken years to develop because it varies greatly depending on temp, humidity, and even the resin you are using. Plus you have a maximum pot life of say 20 minutes, which is stretching it for some one who is not experienced, this forces you to work the canoe one section at a time, rather then working the whole boat in one go. it has been my experience that this can be very very challenging. Also while there are a lot of variables in vacuum bagging the learning curve is much much shorter. IF you build 10 amas with out of poly while trying t learn chance are only 1 or 2 of them will even bey half way decent, while if you do the same while vacuum bagging by your 5th one you should have the process down and can really start to focus on laminate schedule rather then just getting the material down in time.
#15 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 10:03am
i guess but i have a background in polyester, and epoxy cheaper i know its a tuffer?
#16 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 11:16am
then do what you know.... as long as it works!!
#17 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 11:20am
Thanks for the answers...and I learned a little about "the process" of bringing these boats into being! (had seen photos of the molds in use but hard to sometimes tell what's going on!)
(edited out off topic reference, etc.)
Mahalo for setting me straight on layup/molding/hull joining basics!
Just wish it was just a little easier to buy/afford and participate, etc.... especially away from Hawai'i and east/west coasts.
#18 Tue, 12/04/2007 - 3:26am
Self-financing = save $50/week for about 1.5 years.
A lot of the guys I know who complain they can't afford a canoe drink more than that in one weekend, eat out on a regular basis, and drive gigantic trucks that suck gas like lampreys on lake trout. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamprey)
Set up an automatic savings account.
#19 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 8:02pm
Its all about priorities
#20 Thu, 11/29/2007 - 10:03pm
waterboy, mulus... learned a lot about boat building here-- thanks for sharing your knowledge.
two things i'd consider when choosing epoxy or polyester resin
granted, it's pretty cool when an overbaked pot of polyester resin goes up in flames-- i can't get epoxy to do anything more than smoke and foam.
doctor donald geoduck... quack.
#21 Fri, 11/30/2007 - 7:51am
Actually just an FYI, Epoxy is much much much more dangerous in terms of health then Polyester resin. While it does not smell as bad, or react as violently ask any one who has worked with it a lot and most of them have developed a sensitivity to it and react even when the fumes get in contact with there skin (just as Karel Sr. he and i both have it). Also the dust created when you sand epoxy is much more dangerous. always wear a mask and gloves when working with epoxy!!!! Also do not clean if off your skin with acetone, it will only push it into you body, just use soap and water.
#22 Fri, 11/30/2007 - 8:00am
ditto... and very, very excellent points about safety equipment... i certainly don't mean to push epoxy as a substitute for mother's milk.
but i presume you have and have read the msds for epoxy, polyester resin and, certainly, mekp? also, pay careful attention to the toxicology of the styrene additives often in polyester resins. from what i've seen, the final word on styrene monomers hasn't been made, but definitely many epidemiologists are pretty suspicious. finally, that 'smell' of polyester resin's much higher voc is part of the problem, not that there aren't nasty odorless gasses, epoxy seems to do a much better job staying out of the work environment and hence out of your body... but yes, for goodness sake, a respirator with approriate filter goes with either.
but... i love cleaning my skin with acetone, how else would i get the nail polish off?
#23 Fri, 11/30/2007 - 8:22am