Hi Everybody,
I was wondering if anyone has any comments on the weight distribution for the six man in different water conditions.
it is widely acknowledged that a balanced boat (meaning boat is sitting flat when fully loaded and not front/back heavy) is the best way to seat a crew to obtain maximum speed and glide. However, would a front heavy boat be slower than a balanced boat on flat water conditions? Does anyone have enough experience to approximately quantify the loss of speed due to a front heavy boat on flats?
Does a front heavy boat have less of a problem in downwind conditions compared to flats? Would anyone deliberately seat a slightly front heavy boat in bumpy conditions?
How about a back heavy boat in the conditions mentioned above?
Thank you all in advance for your comments.
Cheers,
Orca_nick
Submitted by orca_nick on Sun, 12/09/2007 - 4:24am
Jim and 4layers have this exact same discussion/argument ALL THE TIME. Ask them.
To a certain degree, I think they're both right.
#1 Sun, 12/09/2007 - 8:55am
Jim? 4layers? Would you care to discuss this publicly for our edification/amusement?
#2 Sun, 12/09/2007 - 5:33pm
waiting with bated breath...
#3 Sun, 12/09/2007 - 9:45pm
It might be an Idea to trial and error . have your guys try the different spots and time them with each different combo.
Peace
#4 Sun, 12/09/2007 - 10:40pm
depends on what model/design OC6 you are paddling
#5 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 1:07am
Hi HKpaddler,
We paddled in mainly Force5s and Mirages although there is a couple of Southern spirits as well. In your opinion, does the type of boat creates a significant difference regarding this matter?
Cheers!
#6 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 4:23am
I don't think there's any hard and fast rules. You probably want the heaviest people in the middle, I guess. I've seen crews in the past put a fairly large (6'7" 215lb.) paddler in seat two w/ great success, but they had big guys for seats 3 and 4 also. There are more important considerations when arranging your crew, such as who paddles well together. I think it's really important to make sure that one two combo is really in sync. Ideally, everyone would be virtually interchangeable. I heard John Foti sat every seat including steering in Lanikai's last channel win.
#7 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 4:42am
You have to admit seeing a 210+ dude squeeze himself into seat one is pretty funny. The amusement factor alone makes it worthwhile.
#8 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 7:27am
Orca, trust your instincts, I think you're right on. Distribute the weight based on volume -lightest paddlers in back then front, heavier paddlers in the pivot point (usually seat 3 in Mirage, 4 in Bradley's) in flat water or crosswind conditions.
And in downwind put the weight up front to build momentum and keep nose down. Subject to crew selection.
I'm not a coach or nothing...but have experienced these lineups with success.
#9 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 11:27am
I am fairly large- 6'3" and 215. I love seat one but for some reason no body wants to see me there. Is there some kind of discrimination lawsuit I can get in on or maybe everyone knows that the boat balances better with the engines in the middle?
#10 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 8:46pm
when your dropping off a wave you lean back and try to keep the front up and out of the water at that point you would need to be back heavy. For a moment anyway. on a single that is
I am a pacific paddler subscriber going on four years and I have a stack in both my library’s so no I’m looking at all the six man pic's and they do put big guys in seat 2 .
Piece
#11 Sat, 12/15/2007 - 2:22pm
"tis better to push water than drag it" ...fact.
Cheers rambo
#12 Mon, 12/10/2007 - 10:04pm
Goto is captain of the Jamaican bobsledding team and president of the Seattle knob-bobbing association.
#13 Tue, 12/11/2007 - 3:41pm
Aloha Rambo- tried get on your site but my virus software stuff sent out big kapu signs. Was interested into insights as far as weighting of the oc6's go especially as to the meaning of the haiku line- "better to push water then drag it" .Got on the site before with no problems. Enjoyed checking it out.
okole maluna.
#14 Tue, 12/11/2007 - 7:52pm
Hi Rambo,
can you explain what your quote is about?
#15 Tue, 12/11/2007 - 10:44pm
I'm pretty sure he means it's better to be slightly front heavy than back heavy. I'd say that most outrigger people agree with that one.
#16 Wed, 12/12/2007 - 4:56am
Yeah, what HE said.
If you DON'T agree with that statement - you're crazy.
#17 Wed, 12/12/2007 - 8:59am
Ahhh, a subject dear to my heart. Actually everything Jimbo said, I agree. From a junk steerspersons perspective, I prefer to weight the middle pair, with the front two being slightly heavier than the back two. We paddle both the Mirage and Calmar, and both being quite different, the weight dist described is still preferred...soo much easier to steer(or not have to steer) when the boat is balanced...also assuming everyone is paddling together...um, another big factor.
When paddling with just 5 guys, we seat 1-4 & 6. This is almost an effortless experience to steer in comparison to seating 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.
Try it and share with us your experiences. Oh yeah, you have to steer to feel the joy of a back heavy boat.
#18 Thu, 12/13/2007 - 4:11pm
Tom 4layers Aukai is the greatest steersman in the history of Warshingtun!!!
#19 Thu, 12/13/2007 - 5:45pm
Good thing you told us how to set up a five-person boat. That is CRITICAL info for a situation that happens ALL THE TIME. Also, super-important for race day.
#20 Thu, 12/13/2007 - 6:14pm
Just throwing this out there.
Its moor important to be pushing the water than dragging it for speed. [proven] In the movie wind they were designing a racing sail boat and they were emphasizing how the boat left the water behind it as it went. Say you had a cylinder running on the water and you shaved of the tail end to make it look like the tail on say a dolphin the cylinder would slightly drop in the back end and the front would be climbing over top of the water. And air is thinner than water. slightly less plowing.
Or not?
stupified.
#21 Thu, 12/13/2007 - 10:17pm
Mulus, it's like this. In a well balanced OC6 in flat water and under way, the canoe is actually surfing its own wake. The slight plowing appearance you see then you look at an OC6 side on, is the canoe pointing down (but trying to lift) and running in the hole created between the Bow wave and the Stern wave. If the canoe is back heavy the stern wave will move further up the hull and the effect will be more drag and feel like stalling. If the canoe is slightly front heavy, it will feel like it is sliding down a wave, even though it looks to be plowing. Do some trials yourself and watch the water front, back and middle of the canoe, relative to the straight line of the gunnels.
Cheers Rambo
#22 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:06am
Mulus, some more stuff for you to think about. The Tahitians look at the design of a Va'a hull as more submarine than boat. They believe that because most of the canoe at the waterline level, is under water more than above, then why not look at subs. for inspiration or dolphins for that matter. The picture below is just that, a very famous (in Tahiti) canoe with a race history second to none.
Notice the bow shape and waterline.
photo by KanuCulture
#23 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 1:30am
My crazy ideas.. festinating Tahitian championship canoe. it looks to have a longer waterline than all the oc6 we have up here or less bend or rocker. Rambo Its interesting what you said about surfing your own wake a couple years ago I bought a surf ski and race it and they do like the bikes and draft each other .I get in my 40's and it gets interesting. I figured every race I go to a ski wins,,well lets take a look. maybe my son will master there technical side of there stroke. I still look like a paddler trying to kayak. I see Lewis Laughlin from Tahiti is in second in the World Rankings in surf ski†way to go Lewis“. Thanks Rambo ill watch for the stern wave. I kinda know what your talking about.still learning.
chillax
#24 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 7:02am
A crazy thought...
IF you have no other way to set up your crew due to the paddlers in it and it is back heavy. ie, your seat 1 & 2 is lighter than your 5 & 6 cos your 5 & 6 can't keep time for nuts...and you 1 & 2 can't steer. would you deliberately weight your front bulkhead so that it is slight front heavy?
A heavier boat no doubt, but question is that would it run faster?
#25 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 7:05am
Rambo, would your comment apply to OC1 as well?
Quote:
"If the canoe is back heavy the stern wave will move further up the hull and the effect will be more drag and feel like stalling."
So if your seat went further back in oc1, you create more drag?
#26 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:35pm
In Tahiti, V6 must weight 150kg (hull weight, without iatos and ama).
Max added weight is 30kg.
Some canoe shapers build V6 lighter than 150kg and you can place the added weight under the iatos rigging points. Thus you can if necessary weight the front more or the back, according to the crew weight.
#27 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 12:51pm
Yeah, I know. It's almost comical how normal it seems to me to paddle with 5 guys.
orca_nick, you have to go with what you have, and figure out the different combinations by experimenting. I was just commenting from a steering perspective on weight distribution 'only'.
#28 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 4:53pm
Thinking outside the box and pushing the envelope from the inside out we do the same time at practice with 5 guys as six sometimes. in out long boats
#29 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 10:30pm
nem0
the trim of the boat is very important imo.There are some kayak articles on google that talk about this.
Over recent years the foot wells and seat position in most? OC1 have been moved forward.
Yes, when you sit aft the 'sweet spot' your bow fgoes up and you paddle 'uphill'.
The better trim is to have the bow down slightly, as it will come up when you generate speed.
If you sit in front of the sweet spot you might perl a little earlier.
It is not different from a surf board. You have to be positioned right on the board to catch the wave.
#30 Fri, 12/14/2007 - 10:36pm
Eckhart,
thanks man... i appreciate you comments. I guess some things just need confirmation.
#31 Sun, 12/16/2007 - 8:25pm