Chine vs Chineless | OCPaddler.com

OK, "let's get to the bottom" of this. Is there any data, evidence, or proof that chines make a one-man faster or not?
No.
Hmmm, I think we've pretty much beat THAT dead horse.
How about another question? Is there any data, evidence, or proof that ANY one-man, or one-man design feature is faster than all the rest?
No.
Wow. It's almost as if we've covered THAT topic before too.

Dude, we get it. You love chines. You love Jr. You love Fusions, Fuzes, and Zephyrs. We all know where to go if we are purchasing an OC boat on the East coast.

How much more thoroughly do you want to explore this topic? Will twenty people with anecdotal evidence of chine superiority satisfy you? I sure hope it doesn't take that many because we've been hurting to find any more than two.

You can't just recite the old "try before you buy" thing before fanatically promoting the chined-wonder-boat, and think that anyone here believes that you are interested in any sort of productive discussion. I might as well discuss this topic with a bag of puppy chow. There's no evidence either way.

What the hell are you looking for?

Love, goto

#1 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 5:28pm

,,,and there's your expert.

#2 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 6:39pm

If anyone is keeping score, I agree with goto.

#3 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 7:03pm

Fuzerider says"
At some particular speed they begin to lift and displace water differently than
they do at lower speeds."

FR - either you know what chines do/don't do or you don't. As the rep for these boats at the East cost(?) I would expect you to know your product.

Maybe you can contact a naval architect and let us know the answer, somehow it is your responsibility not to speculate about this but to bring some facts.

Chines increase the wetted surface. Wetted surface = more drag = potentially slower. The designer has to compensate for that; that can be done and is, usually by shortening the waterline.
Long waterline = fast boat ? wrong !

Chines act as a rounded kiel when the boat rolls. That effect may very well be helpful in surfing wave faces.

Chines increase primary and reduce secondary stability.

You cannot make a statement such as chines make a boat faster, because there is no evidence for that.

You can suggest that the kiel function of the chines in larger waves leads to a significant advantage in downwind races due to improved handling of the boat in these conditions.
I personally believe that and I think that there is credible evidence for that.

Seeing that you have specifically opened a new thread for this, FR, maybe you can provide us with a final qualified statement.
I sure would like to know, but it shouldn't be guess work.

The designer of the boat put the chines on there for a reason; maybe it is a trade secret ? You cannot deny that the boat has been very successful in those specific races.

#4 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 7:46pm

paddlefast

#5 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 8:00pm

I dunno Goto, on the other hand I'd say your beatin' a pretty dead horse yerself...and I get to be the FNG ignorantly slinglin' it 'cause talking hull design is just plain fun. Who wants to confuse the issue with facts anyway?
Love, Choo ChineBoy.

I think bottom line is that for a hard chine to do its thing the hull needs to be near or at planing speed, which is surfing. Then it's hard to dispute there's no benefit in having a flatter surface with an edge to work with; think surfboard design. At displacement speeds the nod goes to the round hull for least wetted surface area. However we're likely splitting hairs. More than likely the number of scratches and smootheness of the hull itself probably has more influence on frictional resistance than chine vs round especially in case of OC-boats since the chine is rather subtle and is really a round-chine being round from edge to edge, then progressing into a sharper round above the chine-edge.

Chines do help with primary stability but chine's themselves don't have all responsibility of secondary stability; the shape above the chine takes that role.

In heavy side-seas, a round bottom is also more stable than a chined. But again, the chine on OC-boats is not what you are seeing when looking at simple diagrams; the line from keel to chine edge is not straight, it's round, just less then a full round hull, so and OC-boat won't react in a "strong" chine fashion, it's a watered down version of chine. As always, good designs are always a conundrum of compromises on features.

Is there a reference on OC1 boat design to compare? All these fine OC1's, each with varying designs; what makes them go? Best thing about boats other than messing with them is messing with them, a close third is taking about 'em.

Nothing wrong with beating boat design to death...what do you think dominates our builders thoughts all day long (when not thinking about the trials of owning a retail business)

But to make it real interesting, how 'bout opening the topic to "hull design"...otherwise I'm sure this handle I chose to login with will get old real fast...so where's that horse?

#6 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 8:17pm

a chart that compares the boats is overdue. Some people have private collections about boat length /width features. Maybe we could have a table here on oc paddler, that lists the top 10 -15 boat.

Rambo, in case you read this, how much does it cost to measure a boat, watertank, laser etc ?

#7 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 8:26pm

wow
lets kill the whole heard of ponies
its not just the design of the hull's and whether or not thereâ€™s Chines. allot of things come into play. Like the materials used, and the way its built from start to finish, and from experience even then the same mold makes different canoes. Then thereâ€™s the paddler's his body size and weighte, strength, skill, health. What they eat for breakfast ,if he argued with his wife that day. then thereâ€™s the water size, consistency, wave size, the waters weight, weedâ€™s drift wood.
humidity, elevation, tempter, wind spindrift, the 10 /100 of a second reaction time from the brain to the hand, and then transferred from the water to the boat movement, even the coriolis effect, the spin of the earth comes into play.

O wait that was the shooter movie

I still say we would need a few paddlers in a few different conditions with a few different canoes with GPS to tell the difference even then its a educated guess.
I love talking canoes

#8 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 10:09pm

For Chine boy ..

Frictional tolerance ( surface scratches ) say on a racing yacht ( sorry, don't know for OCs ) should be no more than .02 - .04 mm. This is for a big boat and yes, depends on speed + where on hull viscous ( boundry) sublayer thickness is measured. Hull drag #s ( on/near surface) always higher than keel. Forgot exactly, but I think 400 grit sand paper grains are. .03mm or less. So keep it smooth .. but don't blow that one wave next to your competitior either.

The faster you go, the smoother yo' bottom should be.

Unless someone thinks chines will work for torpedos or surface missles, 'testing' will probably never happen other than Seat of the pants R&D by us. The quandry with canoes and skis it their limited power source ( human) yet they are fast enough to tap into other energy sources and exceed what a non-giant could propel them at in flat water ... this then puts them into another realm of potential design ...

You don't need "chines" proper to develop better lift @ surfing ( planing ? ) speeds .. The shape of Karel's, NOT FuzeRider's, boats is just one of many possiblities to achieve potentially faster, over water velocities. Those nice, hard, very visible lines defining Karel's 'chines' are just another progression, not a means to an end. IMO, you will see them soften rather than harden in the next generation.

#9 Tue, 01/08/2008 - 10:14pm

nice try goto

#10 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 1:33am

Good words.

The best thing about talking hull design is that there is such a range of variables (paddler(and all those variables associated with paddler), wind, current, sea-state) that true measurement is as difficult as finding right compromise of design to make a boat equally fast in flats and bumps. So we talk.

Builders add a new feature, paddlers quibble, races are won or lost, builders modify, and 'round it goes.

I've read many posts regarding GPS measuring speed; don't forget, GPS is only measuring (with varying accuracy) speed over ground, not speed over water. Still, it's better than nothing and on a flat currentless lake at 5am with no wind on a measured course it's accurate enough. I've seen speedo's attached to hulls but in my internet searches it looks the system folks were using is discontinued.

OmnoPaddle: then there's that whole controversial culture of folks who race-prep by sanding thier hulls too, eh? I believe they are sanding with 1200+ grit, after a while it just becomes polishing I guess.

Yep, talking boats is fun.

I still think the most important element in what makes a boat goes fast when you are the engine is what's in your head(fitness being equal), but that's for the sports-psychologists to quibble about...

#11 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:10am

If you listen carefully, you can hear me gouging my eyes out.

#12 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 6:02am

The chines on the OC boats look like they will, to a minor extent, help lift the hull a little higher out of the water, thus reducing whetted surface area. This would most likely occur once a given speed threshold is attained surfing down a swell with a clean enough face to sufficiently engage the hull bottom. If this were the case, given the wild variables of the ocean surface on a big downhill run, I doubt that it is something that can be measured easily, and certainly not by instrument alone, or by the average paddler. I do believe that an elite paddler such as Karel Jr. has the ability, intuition, and feel to, over time, evaluate the efficacy of such design effects. The latter to include other possible handling characteristics as described by eckhart.

Having only recently gotten a good look at the side view of the ZEPHYR, and a quick glimpse of the hull bottom, I'd have to say that there is a lot more going on with that hull than just chines.

#13 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 6:33am

Chines are a gimmick.....just another way of trying to be different and "innovative" without having anyway to actually prove/measure the innovation. What we should be discussing are measurable and significant things like Rocker, Volume, Entry, Release........things that each builder tries to improve/innovate.

#14 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 7:59am

Its the rider that makes the boat look good. PERIOD. Thats why LUKE, KELLY & KEIZO started building them. They got good riders! Kai has a bunch of good riders. And JR makes the OC boats look good! Team Hurricane has good riders.....need I say more? I mean, if it really was the boat, we'd have everyone battling for 1st at every race!!

See u at the finish line!

#15 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:34am

Paeikanalu1,
What you say is true, but it is also simplistic. Different designs handle differently, and one may enhance a certain paddling style or favor certain conditions more than another. I don't think anyone here is arguing that the boat and not the paddler wins a race.

#16 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:25am

It would be great to get some more informed opinions about what makes a canoe go faster. There are interesting theories (or facts - as some call them here) around that relate to speed through the water, such as having a slightly rougher hull 'skin' such as that of sharks, which is supposed to reduce friction, because the small cavities provide a 'water on water' effect (similar to the golf ball analogy - a pitted golf ball goes much further than a smooth golf ball because there is less friction). And also what about tunas, which are among the fastest swimming fish in the ocean, and have 'finlets' running down the length of their tails to break up and release the water flowing along the body and increase speed.
Perhaps we should build canoes with finlets running along the bottom from below the seat area to the rudder?!!? Anyone? Anyone? Maybe I should patent that idea...

#17 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:27am

Fun to think about but NOT*** for human powered boats.

Fins,finlets,and various other cavities can all be dynamically 'operated' by said creature to adapt to sensory input of variable surroundings.

For us, being actually 'connected' to the boat in a none- appendage state is something I heard one major designer is working on for 2009. It's called the " brain chine"

*** A REAL scientific fact.

#18 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:51am

Yeah - but I did read somewhere that some companies were now manufacturing 'sharkskin style' swimming gear, for olympic swimmers, triathletes etc and that these did increase the speed of the swimmer through the water etc etc....

But I agree, it is the paddler not the canoe that counts...

#19 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 10:09am

when I first started paddling in the 70's there was a dugout canoe in our shed. one of many and they all had close to the same speed, but this one for whatever reason was the fastest, but it had a crack down the belly, and concaved in a half a inch. I cant tell you if that is what made it fast, I always wondered if that had something to do with the speed.

#20 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 10:15am

Goto, I love it when you keep it real. Frickin chines. I'm with goto, unless you got data to back up your hearsay then thats all it is, hearsay.

Save your energy and do something worthwhile like debate which one-man is the best. Or maybe try and sell your own products on ocpaddler.

Goto, if you missed it, I love you.

Poopisesses

#21 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 1:55pm

Goto for President!

#22 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 3:49pm

Here's an idea, start a thread, if the discussion doesn't go the way you like, just start another thread about the same subject with a different title. Eventually goto will leave you alone.

#23 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:05pm

I liked the threads about Hypr boats better. They made for more amusing reading.

#24 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:08pm

We won't get Foo-ed again.
The Who

#25 Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:49pm

Heres some speeds that Ive seen on my chine equiped canoe indicated by gps:

9.7 mph on flatwater, no current or wind in a very brief sprint .

16 mph while offshore in downwind surfing conditions, winds were 20, gusting to 30. Wave height was around 4 to 5 feet and steep.

Normally , in flatwater no wind conditions I show between 6.5 and 7 mph while working at around 80 %.

So, I would be inclined to say that the chines don`t do too much for speed enhancement until you are already getting a good assist from wind and wave.

That said however, it`s hard to deny that the chine equiped boats are smoking fast once planed and sliding downhill.

Couple this with a comfortable , secure seat and quick maneuverability and you have a recipe for racing success on the water.

#26 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 3:47am

Have you thought about selling cars? You'd make a lot more money. Seriously, I give you credit for not giving up...somewhere out there is a very lucrative career for someone with relentless, unscientific and meaningless anecdotes. There are people that actually listen to that and some of them have money.

#27 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 6:08am

The foil kayak looks like fun and fast too but impractical , any weeds at all on those foils and they would be impossible to clear off.

#28 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 6:37am

Keizo and the gang are making Kaimanas in Kailua but haven't even mentioned it on their own website. Pretty noble of them, IMO. Maybe they have decided that this forum isn't the proper place for free advertising, which in their case would be justifiable. On the flip side, we could cut Fuze some slack, because by now the cabin fever thing must be absolutely unbearable. Spring is just around the corner, Fuze....

#29 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 6:42am

Jim,

The cabin fever thing is brutal, I need a dose of Hawaii real soon.

#30 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 6:48am

im going on the 9th. I was at a race this weekend and getting my canoe in the water and seen a canoe with 3 chines the length of the canoe. are those the ones? I thoughte you were talking about little 3 foot ones near the bow.

#31 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 7:06am

I just finished reading an incredibly interesting book titled:

"Kelly" More than My share of it all" It`s about the Skunk Works a division of Lockheed Martin. The Skunk Works built airplanes like the U2 Spyplane , C-130, P80 Shooting Star, SR 71 Blackbird, F22 Raptor;, to name a few

The cool thing was that the designers of these planes had millions of dollars to do research and development and based on information gained in wind tunnel testing , they could know exactly what a new airplane could do and couldn`t do even before the first one was even built.

By comparison canoe design is in the stone age. But I wonder just for fun what would result if canoe designers had access to the tools , machinery and brain power of a company like Lockheed Martin. It would seem to me to be entirely possible to optimize hull effiency at any pre determined hull speed you might choose.

Say for example you wanted a hull to reach peak gliding efficiency at 10 mph and another hull at 15 mph , I wonder if the hulls would look different.

Most of us race at between 6 and 8 mph in flat conditions and for short accelerations , can go quite a bit faster than that while surfing a wave face.

I would think that from a designers point of view, you would want to make a hull to glide well at low speeds and still be able to take full advantage of the extra boost you get while surfing.
Apparently there`s no hard data available on optimun canoe design, the evolution of canoes at outrigger connection seems to have been a sort of "seat of the pants" evolution that they think works well.
There have been other man powered boats that were kind of "break throughs" for example the Eagle K1 a boat not well suited for distance paddling , yet super fast in a sprint. Another example would be the Jensen V1 , this is a marathon canoe that is know to have a very high top end speed yet average in terms of glide at lower speeds.

This is an interesting subject to me because I think the Oc1 canoes available today are no where near fully developed in terms of design.

#32 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 9:22am

No such thing as a fully developed hull anyway, is there?

But I would give more credit to the designers of current batch of OC1's; they didn't learn in a vacuum. Naval architecture has been around for a long time and by borrowing already developed ideas they've been able to stand on shoulders of giants and offer us some pretty advanced designs in an incredibly short evolution-time of OC1 history. Chines or not, outrigger connection has a lot of advanced design going on in their hulls, same with Hurricane's, Peggy's, Kiamana's, etc... Having experience in many kinds of boats, when I got interested in OC's I was generally impressed at the hull designs (well, most of 'em).

Of course, finding the ultimate boat with perfect compromise between heavy offshore victory-at-sea conditions and no-wind perfect-reflection has too many contradictions to likely be the winner for all races (in case of equal paddler ability...another impossibility). They sure are trying though.

#33 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 9:49am

out of curiosity and this may lead to some sort of point (although don't bet on it cuz i try not to post on anything meaningful often) do americas cup sailboats have chines? A lot of research went into that design...

#34 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 11:58am

Ive never seen chines on a racing sailboat, probably wouldnt work well anyway because the hulls dont ride flat on the water unless going straight downwind. The Vendee Globe type boats are planing hulls though. 25 -30 knots isnt uncommon for those boats.

#35 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 12:46pm

There are a few open 60's (Vendee globe) today that utilize chines. As for Americas cup, boats there rules are usually very strict and do not allow chines, this is also true for the olympic kayaks (k1's-k-4's). I however do not believe they are necessary on a oc-1, or a surfski.

#36 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 1:17pm

Nb1376,
The Aussie Southern Spirit OC6 was designed by Americas Cup design legend Ian Murray (remember the winged keel?), Tons of dollars went into the design in 1997 and it is still being made today. As yet the potential of this canoe has never really been tested, as no top crew has pitted it against Mirages etc, in the conditions it was designed to excel in. It has place high in the finishers at the Hamilton Cup though.

Photos from kanuculture

Cheers Rambo

#37 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 2:33pm

Ther's another designe that has evolved for thousands of years .not made by man and works as well as any canoe.
no not its a U.F.O.

sail fish 68 miles an hour

it has chines

#38 Sun, 01/27/2008 - 2:48pm

The new Maa Afi has chines that will make an outrigger connecton chine look like nothing. even the ama has them! Not trying to get on the chine bandwagon but Steve Blythe technique is designed for endurance and is a great surfer by his race results. Maybe the chines are primarily for handling while catching waves? I agree that this topic should be put to sleep though. Unless we can get Kai, manny, Karel, and some other top paddlers to all do a race series with each racer using the same canoe against eachother we will never know the answer and I have a feeling we wont be seeing Kai on a Zephyr or Karel on a scorpius any time soon.

#39 Tue, 04/01/2008 - 11:36pm

This thread was the reason I had to go out and buy a hockey helmet .

Can we let this one rest????

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#40 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 2:19am

No!

#41 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 2:28am

What is a
Maa Afi ?

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#42 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 7:31am

occanoe.com

#43 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 8:59am

Well , if the Maa Afi has chines like jpi92109 says it does , all I can say to you people is " I told you so " I knew this was going to happen sooner or later.

Soon all the boats will have chines and they won`t be interesting to talk about anymore.

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#44 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 9:44am

my 7 year old stingray, which i have still been racing on this year in the long coarse, has 3 on the bottom of it, which makes it really run well flats, but you get stuck on really big stuff and have reduced mobility. but i have noticed that i feel like im plaining a bit, maybe...but it is curious that the idea of chines is being examined more...beyond the OC models...

dan

#45 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 4:57pm

before the told you so starts...

has feedback about the Ma'a Afi been positive?

#46 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 5:01pm

Believe it or not, I went down to the bay to have a 'nuther look @ Steve's new carbon boat just today. For sure a more radical look but it is amazing to see it run. My mouth got its way over my brain a couple weeks ago while watching the Pohoiki race and just blurted out "oh shit, that thing is fast ! " right in the middle of a bunch of people ... apologies if you were standing right next to me down @ Kahena. IMO, Steve has once again raised the bar with this bold new design. The hull is super fair and the build quality is excellent too.

#47 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 5:35pm

I wasnt trying to say that chines are the way to go. I am really new to oc1 paddling so I am far from even barely knowledgable but I have paddled a vantage, a pahoa, a zephyr, and a pegasus. They all feel different buit cant say any are bad. Some obviously perform better in certain conditions. If a boat is designed around and with chines then chine away. If its designed without them then big deal. I happen to like my chines so far but by no means would I not buy another canoe just because it doesnt have them. This chine argument is ridiculous but it gives me something to do when im not working or paddling so keep it going!

#48 Wed, 04/02/2008 - 8:43pm

What do you mean talking chines is rediculous? When youre talking boat design and in particular , boats that have an unusually wide speed range for paddle powererd boats its completely logical to study what shapes are best for such a wide speed range.
Clearly, serious boat designers and paddlers are considering chines and what they can do to extend the upper end of the speed envelope. To make them worthwile though , the chines need to be added without increasing drag at the lower end of the speed range, OC has achieved this to my satisfaction.

The thing I like about my Fuze is that it glides very well on the flater waters of the east coast , keeping pace with all makes and models but, downwind she runs like a spooked horse.

Be ready for the Chine Effect , coming to a race near you......

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#49 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 1:17am

In our flat water, by contrast, the OC boats pretty much suck! Or at least that's the public perception. JD down in Stevenson is having a hard time selling them. Fuze, you might want to expand your inventory to boats that people like in flat water, or better yet, ask Karel to design something for flat water. What ever happened to the Gator? I hate to be such a Kaimana lover, but for most light conditions, it's pretty tough to beat. Comfy as hell and made in Hawaii to boot, so you know no one's being exploited to produce them, and environmental regulations are being observed in their production. Didn't Ching and Sinkus just set the course record on a Chineless, Hawaiian made Kainalu? Downhill conditions, too! Hmmmm.....

#50 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 3:38am

i guess i should have said that arguing over this topic is ridiculous. some of the forums get very argumentative. that all i meant.

#51 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 4:13am

Chine's have their place in many conditions. OC builders generally steal boat design ideas from centuries of naval archictecture's inventories and then tweak for our applications.

IMO if chines were fastest on the flats you'd see them on racing sculls/shells, K1's, etc... but I don't believe they exist there.

I like my chines for an all-around boat but if I was restricted to flats I'd probably start looking for a hurricane or similar.

But of course, chines are not the only characteristic of OC's boats; many more concepts go into their designs to make those hulls.

Repetitive as it is, boat design talk is always enjoyable! Can you imagine how dull it'd be to start confusing these discussions with facts? It's a good thing most of this stuff, when you toss the engine aboard, is not very measurable.

#52 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 4:38am

In case you haven't kept up or, like me, your soul has turned black from the constant bombardment of OC psuedoscience, let me recap:
1. Chines make you fast in bumps
2. Chines make you fast in the flats
3. Chines make you fast in bumpy flats
4. Chines make you fast in flat bumps
5. Chines are responsible for the pax romana, fire and the unsolvable unification theory in physics
6. Chines make you better looking
7. If you don't have Chines, you will die a dark and scary death
8. OC is a company of unequaled genius, dwarfing all other thinktanks with their inclusion of chines.
9. "Scientific" proof or explanation are pointless and the only thing one needs to make their point today is volume and repetition of message.
10. Victories by chine-less heathens are anomalies and can only be explained as luck.
11. Chines work better on the east coast evidently, where its bumpy-flatty.

Did I miss anything? I'm not sure we've discussed it enough considering that, short of a full investigation by the US Navy, Caltech, and Steven Hawkings, it will never move beyond opinion-backed psuedo-science and sales pitches.

#53 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 4:55am

chines could make sense if you think in terms of directing water while you go over top of it and tacking. And that fish have them is a sure sign that they are useful in the water. Not essential obviously, but I could see how they would be useful.

#54 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 5:04am

Clearly, serious boat designers and paddlers are considering chines and what they can do to extend the upper end of the speed envelope.

...so who besides OC is considering this? The dominant boats like Pegasus, Hurricane and Kaimana don't have chines. So it's not really that clear.

#55 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 11:30am

Didn't Jr. set the record in a Viper(no chines)?

#56 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 1:57pm

What record? If it didn't have chines, i think the last chineless boat that OC produced was the Mantra. I'm sure someone will correct me on this though. Thanks for setting me up Jimbothy.

Chineboy, good point about the olympic boats all being round bottomed. Curiously, did you guys know that one of the only one man's that is completely round bottomed is the aforementioned Kainalu? Pretty much all other one man hulls are rounded but have more of an elliptical shape or even a rounded bottom with straight sides.

hmmmm. The plot thickens.

#57 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 2:36pm

Any publicity is good publicity, eh Fusey .... hahaa.

Canoe talk is great discussion, brings out the passion in people.

Cheers Rambo

#58 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 2:42pm

My Goto is nicely round bottomed.

#59 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 2:42pm

I have a new china pegasus coming in a couple/few weeks so it will be fun comparing it to the zephyr but from my demos on the pegasus i think it will be my daily paddler. i feel like the zephyr has helped me step up my surfing a notch or 2 but im coming from a hypr pahoa so well just end that comparison. i like the feel of the pegasus all around but im a smaller guy. 160 and skinny so who knows.

#60 Thu, 04/03/2008 - 8:55pm

Here`s some interesting data regarding hulls , Biogeek , or Kiezo ,can you please decipher?

http://www.cyberiad.net/library/kayaks/racing/kintro.htm

Unless Im reading this wrong , it looks like chines arent legal on ICF olympic kayaks.

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#61 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 6:21am

Fuze
What needs deciphering? That article is as clear as the water in the Ala Wai.

#62 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 7:15am

Exactly

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#63 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 7:19am

So let me get this straight.....I need to get chines on my canoe? Can't I just paste a bunch of those sharkskin speedo swimsuits that the Olympians wear on my hull? That should speed it up a bit....if not make me paddle faster trying to get away from all those nekkid swimmers (who of course can't catch me cause I got their swimsuits).

Speaking of which.....does any one know if Gator Sharkote is out yet and can we apply it to our chineless canoes? Technically speaking if you look at sharkskin....the individual rectangular scales have grooves on them....I think that they would be considered a chine. But it's more for controlling the directional flow of water. Does anyone have direct expertise (or is an engineer who can explain this to me) or am I gonna have to wrestle a Great White out of his epidermis and apply it to my canoe to find out?

#64 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 12:45pm

in my limited ability to read, i saw no mention of chines. only that the hull must be convex and not have hydrofoils. i'm sure someone will read otherwise though.

#65 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 2:35pm

It said hull must be convex which means to me whatever shape of convex you want is up to you. I would think you could implement chines in a convex shape if you thought it would get you on the podium...but I don't believe chines benefit a displacement hull design and although they paddle those K's, sculls, and shells pretty damn fast they still don't reach planing threshold.

As for structuring the surface as the sharkskins for swimming, a few years back I had a real heavy openwater scull that was given to me used and spent many hours repairing hull which brought the weight way up. So I did a bunch of research on structuring because it sounded like all the rave in sailboat racing. I couldn't ever come to decision b/c there were so many contradictions, so I just sanded the hell out of it with like 10-million grit, threw a coat of paint and just rowed my ass off. Some hydrodynamists say it's faster, some don't. Kinda like chines, eh?

#66 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 3:27pm

ChineBoy, you should have stopped @ 10 million BEFORE you painted it ... did you wetsand the paint again too ? That would be the way to go. Just make it as smooth as you can.

#67 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 3:44pm

Yeah, I know. But I wanted to paint over all the ugly repairs...good thing I didn't do much competing.

#68 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 4:36pm

O.K. cool, very mind easing/ relaxing to only look @ a smooth even surface .... forget the past eh ?

If you wanted, just hit it with 2000 to knock down the nibs and buff.

#69 Fri, 04/04/2008 - 9:38pm

Ok...so sharkote is out. Although I'd like to find out if an Inuit somewhere tried to use sharkin to cover his baidarka. And see what he has to say.

As for smoothing to glass like finish. What would you say is the best application to apply, (i.e. palmolive, wax...) to make it go faster. I am sure there is a post somewhere in the archives that covers this....but am sure that the process has evolved somewhat?

#70 Sat, 04/05/2008 - 5:56am