Why do we pay to race in these events. to me there are several major reasons why I race and more importantly pay to race, but ONE more then ALL is a fair race. Someone who is hosting the race for profit or not has a few responsibilities. the race they put on should be safe, (how is one jet ski for over 100 paddlers suppose to be a safety escort) it should be a good course, organized, and FAIR. Its not that hard to make sure everyone starts at the same time and the same place. Is it? as a race director you either restart the race and make it fair for everyone, (Including the RACE STARTER himself) or you dq the one that started early. no time no standings. yes, that includes the top dogs who would have won it anyways, they need to take some responsibility themselves too. besides they also are trying to organize their own races AND i'm sure that they wouldn't want something like this to happen in their event. otherwise lets all go renagade since it really doesn't matter it won't be how fast you are but how much earlier you can start then everyone else.
Submitted by kj on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:56pm
Race starts are relatively easy to manage, It starts at the race meeting and your history of running the event, I have been running the Catalina relay now for three years, I can't tell you how many people have commented to me about the start, and that they are the fairest starts they have ever seen, I make it very clear in the race meeting when the start will happen, I use my watch or GPS, tell the racers at the race meeting exactly what time I have to the second, and what time the race will start, I DO NOT wait for late arrivals, and I DO NOT tolerate early starters. ANYONE that is in front of my boat that I keep stationary will be penalized 5 minutes, My exact words are that you can not win the race at the start but you can lose it.
I learned from Rich Long of Dana how to start a race, For years I have watched the typical start, an undulating line with each paddler making sure that the paddler next to them didn't get in front. Sometime the line was nearly at full speed by the time the race officially starts, I have on too many occasions been hammering at 110% trying to catch the start line that hadn't even officially started yet, and was easily 500 yards down from where the race organizers say the start is going to happen.
The Newport to Dana race was the exception, Rich made the starting instructions very clear, A starting boat and channel marker were the start line, A start time was stated, Anyone ahead of the line was penalized. Nobody crossed the line Early, It was so accurate that I would line up about 50 yards behind the line, keep an eye on my watch and have a running start, making sure I didn't cross early, Sort of how sailboat races happen. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not.
Race organizers owe it to the participants to do everything in there power to run a race fair and how they advertise it. There are always going to be times that changes need to be made, But many times organizers do what is best for a few and not the majority. If you have complaints, concerns, or critiques about a race you have the right to say what you want, you paid for it. I encourage the comments, good or bad, If I don't know what you didn't like I can't fix it. I sometime do what I would like and not what the paddlers want, I may not change it but at least I know what you want.
You will see race participation at the races that are run well, and declining numbers at poorly run races, This leads back to the string "what is wrong with our sport"
#1 Sun, 02/24/2008 - 5:53pm
kj, I think you are ready to be a race official or even the race director. I agree with you can you please be the official and make sure what you described actually happens? That would be wonderful.
Poops
#2 Sun, 02/24/2008 - 6:13pm
poops, "i agree with you can you please be the official and make sure what you described actually happens?"
what are you talking about? Your the one not racing, why don't you do it.
#3 Sun, 02/24/2008 - 9:54pm
True starts and accurate timing do help legitimize an event.
But I admit I also used to love the old preseason six man races and I jumped my fair share of starts. I don't think one of em ever had a fair start, with the exception of the races with a beach start where everyone is held behind a rope.
#4 Sun, 02/24/2008 - 10:04pm
Kj, Maybe I did race. What I was talking about was you had some issues about the race. If you were an official you could correct them. That's all I meant. It would make me happier too cause man that was a messed up race!
Poops
#5 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:01am
Some water conditions lend themselves to an "easy" fair start, and some don't. The harder the wind/current is moving, the more paddlers there are, the less markers there are denoting the start, the less likely you will have everyone's boat behind the line. For a race like the Moloka'i Hoe on a windy day, as a starter, all you can hope for is that most of the boats are lined up and moving towards Diamond Head at the same speed when you wave the flag.
OceanOhana puts on a good race, and has a great start. It seems to require some effort and measures to ensure that, and he obviously puts forth that effort to cover all the bases. But, multiply the conditions and number of paddlers, and the required effort to pull off a fair start would also multiply. Not saying it's impossible, but at a certain point the perceived fairness is no longer worth the use of resources.
Perceived fairness: in a 20-40 mile race, does a 50 yard head start matter? It definitely could. Does a 5 yard head start matter? Probably not. You know who your competition is, and you know who's jumping the line. If they beat you by 5 seconds after false starting, what do they get? Their name ahead of yours on the Race Results page on OCP.com? So what? What are you trying to prove, and to whom?
I guess some people need everything to be perfectly by the book all the time, and some are realists. I'm all for a "fair" start, but sometimes it might not be as easy as you think.
#6 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 11:45am
Goto, give the original poster a little credit. KJ is not bitching over a mere 50 yards. He is referring to a solid % of the paddlers who were still paddling out of the Magic Island channel when the pack, who was even with DH buoy, started on their own.
KJ has a valid point. Now, constructive feedback and resolutions need to be communicated to the race director in order to see improvements (not just discussing amongst ourselves on this forum). I have done so already and the organization promptly advised they will make future efforts to avoid such an unfair start, by limiting the number of open ocean starts.
#7 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 3:20pm
I was there yesterday somewhere in the middle of the line. Yes it was unfair, but given the fact that the race course had to be changed race morning and a shortage of boats to actually make a line it was the best they could come up with. Changing from water starts would be going backwards, as whenever the start is perpendicular to a finish line there is a chance for mass congestion on the first turn. Set bouys or anchored boats and enforcing penalties would slowly bring all into making better starts.
#8 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 3:43pm
Jaimie, I wasn't aware that kj was referring to this weekend's race. I wasn't there, and wasn't talking about that particular start.
...I'm full of excuses!
But seriously, my post was aimed generally and not specifically.
#9 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 3:50pm
My .02
2 . Five minute flag starts the REAL TRUE start countdown ( even if original start time has to be modified due to murphys law something )
$. If the line is already winding up, new "Restart Flag"
Do this once and everyone will get mad but keep the line tight next time ..
5 minute flag , one minute flag and horn as official time clock start.
Anyone over needs to do a 360 or recross line .. gentlemans agreement ?
Hey OO .... are you gonna' work on some kind of summer series for Sat. ot Sun. afternoon starts ?
I'm gonna be trying to talk up the Bay to Bay race more this year ....
20 miles, Two bays, (usually) downswell finish, beach luau in the summer ... perfect. I hope scheduling is not conflicting w/ the 6es.
#10 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 6:06pm
I'm sorry, but I have yelled till I was hoarse and set up many different procedures, but at the end of the day, it is the choice of the people sitting on the canoes about whether the race start is fair and smooth or not. A creeping line is the choice of the paddlers. if one creeps, he stands out, but then the next and the next and the next an so on, till the entire line is moving, and the race director who stops everything and tries to get everyone to come back is ostracized and is made to be the a__hole. Do you just not time the race and post no results, then they screams even louder. If the paddlers take responsibility for fair starts.
Race directors are volunteers. The sport has lost many good volunteers because of they way paddlers treat them when they are trying to run a good and fair event.
the paddlers choose the fairness of the start.
#11 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 6:18pm
I was at the race and a difficult situation was made far worse by the paddlers not following the agreed to procedure. Had we waited inside for the starter and then all paddled out together as was decided before the race, we had a chance at a good start.
Once the line got spread out over a few miles and the outside boats started on their own, there was no way to call boats back and restart or DQ anyone.
Not much Kanaka Ikaika could do but what they did. Accept the race for what it was, serve some good food, a few beers, pass out prizes and focus on the next race.
Personally I thought the run was great, I had fun, and I appreciate all the effort that goes into putting on an event like this.
#12 Mon, 02/25/2008 - 7:36pm
Uncle Nappy once told me a solution which is maybe heavy handed but I think very effective. He was talking about six-man Molokai, but it could also be applied to one man races.
Basically he suggested that if anyone is caught over the line, DQ them and then ban them from either racing the rest of the year or the next year.
I don't think false starts are that much of a problem now, but imagine if that rule was in place and officials were willing to enforce it? It would be a hell of a lot easier for them. All they would have to do is establish a distinct starting line and wait for the start.
With the threat of such drastic consequences, people will definitely think twice about jump starting. Even if it is a race where the wind or swells are pushing you to the line, racers will figure out a way to stay behind it (come out late to the starting line, start from further back, etc...)
#13 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:13am
Ho, Peter, heavy-handed is right! Banned for a season for an early start? That's some tough policing for a recreational sport that is trying to grow. But, I'm sure it would fix the problem.
IMO, it's up to the members of the association to determine what they want to have happen for early starters. If the majority agreed that a season-long ban is appropriate, so be it. If it's a 5-minute penalty, so be it. I've certainly been guilty of the rolling start, but only not to be disadvantaged by others doing likewise.
Just don't lose sight of the fact that the majority of outrigger associations are non-profit organziations and the race officials are volunteers. As Paddlehard so eloquently stated, the sport has lost many a volunteer due to the bitching and whining of paddlers. There is a ton of logistics that go into organizing a single event, much less a season, and as paddlers we should be grateful for the opportunity to race.
As a former race organizer, I can tell you that the costs to put on an event are significant. For example, on Maui, races now cost $25. Of this, fully $10 goes toward insurance. MCKC pays water officials, and the total per race is upwards of $1,200 for shorter races and much higher for the longer races. Assume 100 paddlers and that's $12/person just for safety personnel. Awards average out to about $1/participant. That doesn't leave much room to provide food and beverages and a t-shirt/jersey, much less equipment like timers, start horns, computers to do results, renting tables and chairs and tents, etc. Nevermind paying mileage to the volunteers who have to scramble from the start line to the finish line each race. Or compensate them for the numerous trips to the County and State offices for permits, the phone calls to insurance companies, the time involved in fielding complaints from paddlers... it's a ton of work. Fortunatley, Maui has the most amazing sponsors, which makes the races affordable and top of the line.
But, none of it would happen without the volunteers. For those who like to grumble, just keep in mind that a little bit of gratuity goes a long way to ensuring the volunteers will still be there for you the next race...
#14 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 11:16am
I liked the way we did it back in days of sailboat racing; two buoys defining start-line wide enough for all to cross at once. Official clock (with seconds display) for all to see at pre-race meeting to set watches by. Pre-determined start time, adjusted at race meeting if necessary (but NEVER after unless warranted). Officials' boat at one end of start-line with gun/whistle/horn to sound off at start-time. An assistant onboard boat with camera shooting photo's at the gun to define (with proof) who jumped line. Significant time penalty for those who cross early. With today's technology you could video (with accurate clock displayed at playback).
That's it; nothing more, nothing less. Works well in my experience. Sailboat starts are cool, you really have to be good at predicting your spot under sail power when gun fires. This would allow paddling starts. Just make sure line is wide enough to prevent a bottleneck of anxious paddlers...
Banning for a year on a jump? That's crazy talk.
#15 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 1:33pm
Crazy talk maybe, but I can guarantee you that no one will ever jump the starting line then!!!
Actually, what is really needed is that big Hawaiian guy in Kaua'i who was so set on having a fair start for the Napali Challenge last year that he took the initiative and threatened bodily harm for any six-man that was on the verge of jumping the fourth or fifth start of that race.
Now that race was a case study on race starts if I've ever seen one!
#16 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 3:32pm
Pk is right-sheer, raw physical intimidation is about the only thing that'll keep most people behind that line! I was thinking maybe sharks w/ laser beams on their heads.
#17 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 5:42pm
Torpedoes!
#18 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 6:26pm
Brandishing handguns is also underrated as a motivational tool. Think Rollerball meets Deathrace 2000. I see ama-spikes, nose-spears, and razorblade tipped paddles. Then that guy that got a 10-yard headstart will think twice ...once he recovers. Also, the safety boats should fire cannon shrapnel on occasion, just to keep it interesting.
#19 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 7:48pm
Excellent,
Where do I sign up for this new sort of race?
#20 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:16pm
maybe try to get past it.
and see the race for what it is a great way to spend the day. I knew a young man a few years ago who could start last and finish first. That was impressive. but as a official or starter I have start it as close as I could get it and maybe that’s all that can be done. on the other hand I hate it when the starter is gun shy and wont shoot the gun waiting for a perfect start. but as a racer I would stay close to the guys who were my around my spped. and try to be in the best place current and tide wise.
My hand up to all those officials and organizers out there who put in those thankless hours for the love of the sport. to hold a race.
#21 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:17pm
Hey Hey Everyone! I was there and been there for many races befoere. This year is obviously different than the past. First of all we pay $27 per race. Not sure the break down but I'm thinking insurance would require more than one jet ski for the amount of paddlers we did have. Not sure on the break down for ins is. per pdler. Second, In th past there was no distinct start line but there was a Danny Loui, Kalau Jones or Nalu Kukea starting us and everyone respects them and thats why we had good starts back then. (not bitching Just what has happened)I've been to three Kanakas this year and never experienced an actual start yet. In two races a paddler actually started the race, in those cases there were no safety boats or starter boat you might say. For my case I will handle myself if trouble arises, I am concerned with the amount of novice paddlers out there with the growth of the sport.For myself I don't push the line so I'm for stiff penalties with 5 or 10 minute penalties but that resorts back to officials. In 12 years of 1-man paddling i have never seen anyone get a penalty. I got to say Walter Guilds Kaiwi Challenge has had the best starts. Anyway I'm not bitcher I'm just saying what I've noticed and a little bit of opinion. I don't have the time to help out with the races (organize/coordinate) so I'm feeling I shouldn't grumble. There is a need for more help. I don't think Jim F. and Jon E can do this themselves. If you might have time please help. I love to race!
#22 Tue, 02/26/2008 - 10:41pm
EVERY RACE WE HAVE THIS ROLLING START........SO ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS PAYATTENTION....................................................................
#23 Wed, 02/27/2008 - 6:41am
I think this past race was beyond paying attention. Sounds like it was messed up prety bad....
#24 Wed, 02/27/2008 - 8:41am
My 2 pennies....
I think the usual "top" finishers can do a lot to control the start.
Everyone knows these races can sometimes be decided by seconds. So nobody wants to be lined up slightly behind the pack and have to suffer a shitty start and risk losing those "seconds". Therefore, when people see competition a half boat ahead at the line, the urge to be even with them, or ahead of them,causes the "creep" foward. I see everyone do this, front,mid,and back packers.
The front pack is going to be the front pack even if they line up 10 boat lengths behind everyone else. I think if the leaders (Kai,Karel,Manny,Kea,Luke,Kelly,Dolans,Tapa) can agree on lining up evenly with eachother, and actually waiting for an "official" start, the rest of the pack will follow. Those guys know who their competition is, and if they are all in agreement to start evenly, I think it would make their race more exciting, and our(not so much front pack guys) race more fair. I know when I line up, I look for those guys and pick my line up spot according to them.
They are the "pros" of our sport and get a lot of respect from myself and other paddlers. They have more power to control the start than they know.
But then again I'm not even racing this season so ignore everything you just read. Go Pa'a.....
#25 Wed, 02/27/2008 - 10:03pm
Very good idea, ALOEK. Can you call all those guys and let them know the plan next weekend?
WHY on earth aren't you paddling this season? At least come out for the PA'A races, yo. Show your support, dammit! :)
#26 Thu, 02/28/2008 - 9:36pm
I do support dammit!
I did the one race Manny had this year. And I did the punanaleo one too. Nothing against Kanaka Ikaika, just schedule conflicts. I support anyone who supports paddling..........and fair starts.
I did the two that Jaimie didn't do.....so I wouldn't lose to her....
#27 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 5:40pm
Dear Aolek,
Thanks .. you are my "learn something new everyday" source.
Brilliant.
aloha,
pog
#28 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 10:15pm