Culture vs Innovation | OCPaddler.com

Those can go hand in hand. Things change with time.

Innovation does not have to oppose 'tradition'.

What are these traditions/'origins' ? They are subjective, colored 'memories'.

There will be someone that will claim 'this is how it is done' etc.; that's all it is.

#1 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 12:08pm

I feel like we have had this discussion at least 3 or 4 times.

#2 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 12:18pm

Embrace the past while looking to the future.

In martial arts there is the same dilemma. A great sensei once said that one cant live without the other, without tradition, without innovation.

The wind of times is unchangeable. It is immposible for a spring or summer to last a winter. Accordingly, you cannot restore the good old days and customs of a hundred years ago. It is, therefore, essential to do your best according to the requirements of the present generation. In refusing to to accept this with resignation, nostagic people are grossly mistaken. Indeed ther are very unreasonable. On the other hand, those who can only think of the present trend and hate the sings of older times cannot hope to ecquire retropective knowlege.
- Tsunetomo Yamamoto

#3 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 12:49pm

You ask about virtue - good or bad, acceptable or not.

If the outcome of change is good, then it's virtuous and should be done.
If the outcome of change is bad, it's not virtuous and should not be done.

Change in and by itself is neutral, neither good nor bad.

'away form the origin' - is that good or bad ?
This depends on what the origins are, good or bad, and what the final outcome will be, good or bad.

To simply assume that the origins are good because they have occured in the past is not correct. Neither does it prove that the origins are better than the current state.

If the outcome of the change is neutral with regards to good or bad, it would not matter whether you do it or not.

#4 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 1:43pm

for clarity's sake......I mean, what if equipment were to evolve to the point of being unrecognizable as what we currently know. Take for instance fiberglass. Looks nothing like wood but apparently is a more practical, not necessarily better, material for making canoes. Another example: the "T" grip at the end of the paddle. A fairly new innovation, but one that undoubtedly enhances a paddlers performance, thusly his experience.

#5 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 4:02pm

gotta agree with waterboy.. think we've been here before

how about talking about the t grip/ palm grip.

Is there an ideal shape?
are paddlemakers experimenting with new shapes to better fit the hand?

what do you see out there?

#6 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 4:09pm

I have no idea what others are doing, but Im working on something thats gonna drop some jaws............

#7 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 4:19pm

hmmmm. i'm sure it will be more than i can ever afford.

alt text

#8 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 5:24pm

aquafiend65 - for clarity's sake ?? ...unrecognizable ...

doesn't clarify anything to me.

If you are working on it already - why don't you give us a hint. Hasn't the T-grip been around before, just 'new' to outrigger paddling ?

I hope it's a universal ama without any drag, guaranteed to not immerse, just touching the surface. :)

#9 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 6:24pm

I canot wait for tomorrow to see what it brings and imagine the possiblilitys.

mahalo

#10 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 6:31pm

just removing my hotheaded remarks to jc9 0

#11 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 10:46am

Yes! Another expert in customer service takes the low road and insults his consumer base! I missed that part of basic marketing 101 in college, but it seems to be a popular tactic in the outrigger world. "F*** you and give me money."

On that topic, but in a completely different direction, big props to the Foti Bros for hosting a FREE outrigger clinic. That's just great customer service and devotion to the sport. Seriously.

#12 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 8:35pm

I beg to differ on the t-grip and the palm grip. Both are innovations that evolved over thousands of years...not necessarily in hawaii but here on the mainland. You can look at photographs of a multitude of grips on tribal canoe paddles from the east coast to the west coast. I've also looked at an antique paddle from Haida/Tligit area (in the Portland Art Museums repository) that had carved handle almost exactly like a palm grip...just not as pronounced. I would say that the bend in the "wacky shaft" of the Kialoa is probably the newest innovation. But I did see a photograph of an antique Maori paddle that had a carved slight curve in the throat of the paddle like the "wacky shaft". So I believe that any innovation that we are going to have in the last 50 to next 100 years will still not necessarily be new in terms of an idea that hasn't been thought of over the course of thousands of years. They were paddling daily not just for recreation. Also... Looking at hull shapes...I know that a few years ago someone was talking about the theoretical properties of the "golf ball" dimple on a hull. I can't remember if anyone brought up the idea of the lamination of sharkskin on a hull to reduce drag? I do know "The ancients" (on the mainland westcoast) used to put a fine adzed finish on a hull because it increased speed...whether it resembled a golf ball dimple or the properties of a sharkskin...I'll never know. I think by adding independent innovations from different cultures we might refine paddling to have the best attributes of all of these ancient canoe cultures....so we can't possibly change paddling to something we can't recognize. It's still the same water...we still have to exert some sort of energy to paddle it. ......anyways I got to get going...my wife is chirping at me to do something or other....."Nothing has really changed in thousands of years!!!"

#13 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 8:48pm

FYI, Aquafiend, jcnizzle has done plenty for this sport as a youth coach and paddler for many years, which is at least as important as the work of the many so-called innovators of paddling technology.

#14 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 8:57pm

And I'm pretty sure that's not his mouth in the picture. "LAOTION"

#15 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 9:03pm

Relate cultural words

I grew tall in this luck land
And I think god for that, but there's needles in the sand
Ozone in the eucalypt and on the steppes tonight
Theres a pushing and shoving on the throne tonite

Its a rhythm of the sea
Lost islands of hope
Is a rhythm of the sea
Who will discover you

But I won't be down at heal, cos my senses lead me here
Dream a south pacific dream of now or never land
Its now or never land

Rises in rivers, in power of the sun
Rises in sea level, look out mammon'ds bastard son
Infidels are praying at the stock exchange
Chrome camels are crashing on the smooth terrain

It the rhythm of the sea
Lost islands of hope
It's the rhythm of the sea
Someone to carry you.

But I won't be down at heal, cos my senses lead me here
Dream a south pacific dream, of now or never land
Suitcase full of good ideas, history thats filled with tears
Kill nostalgia, xenophobic fears
Its now or never

#16 Fri, 02/29/2008 - 9:23pm

Carpe-Diem

#17 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 6:59am

As to the "T" top paddle, there is evidence of it in old Hawai`i.

If you are serious about paddling, I beg you all to read Tommy Holmes' THE HAWAIIAN CANOE.

Canoe racing was also a favorite pastime of ka po`e kahiko.

#18 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 8:16am

I just wanted to publicly apologize to jc9 0
My response was out of line.
Sorry bro.

#19 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 8:41am

aquafiend65 - we are really interested in what you are doing. Can you give us a hint ?

I customized my OC1 with a tiller bar steering - new if you will, but it is 'borrowed' from the K1. Has anybody tried a swivel seat on an OC1 ?

" For they alone are enabled to call a thing hoped for a thing got, by the speed with which they act upon their resolutions. "

( from Thucydides, " The History of the Peloponnesian War" )

#20 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 9:18am

eckhart Im dying to spill the beans but I think further testing, as well as protecting it from pilfers, is needed before I reveal. On another note, because its just a whymsical idea, Ive been thinking of making a hydrofoil rudder. I know its a stretch and it will actually require a surfboard fin box being installed on the hull near the front ikao so as to have a second, leading hydrofoil. I know its crazy and will take tremendous effort to get it up, but perhaps in the big bumps or with a kite? It would be cool, no? Another idea Im kicking around is custom shaped outriggers. Like a surfboard or paddleboard. Quoting my friend, "why dont we all just wera size 15 shoes?" sort of puts the idea into perspective. The concept is totally legit and viable. The problem will be to create a canoe that is light and durable on par with the molded canoes. Its possible that a few more pounds will be offset by the custom fit. By custom I mean a canoe that is shaped specifically for your size, ergonomics, style, conditions, etc.

#21 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 10:15am

Hotheaded remarks are cool! Fire away!!

#22 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 11:30am

Naw, I think those were vented out of frustartions in my personal life and had no place here.....hence the retraction and apology.

#23 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 1:04pm

There is a post about a rudder with a hydrofoil somewhere on Epic's website, including photos and some comments.
Looks real nice.

Some problems with hydrofoils: whenever they come out of the water/ go back into it they work as a real break.
To avoid that, you need a fairly long post, probably around three feet - the foil doesn't work well when close to the surface.
It is not that easy to construct a 3 plus foot, thin and rigid post for that foil.
Secondly, when in wind/waves, the angel of attack is a problem, due to the change of the trim of the boat.

Custom shaped outriggers would be nice to have.
I would suggest to have a new hull every 20 lbs weight gain. It is worth it ? It's all about perception, too.
As a market leader like Epic, you can do what you want. As a start up, you would have to create a brand name more than anything else.

#24 Sat, 03/01/2008 - 1:40pm

Does anyone complain that electricity ruins the tradition of candle light? That sunscreen ruins the old sunburn? Safety boats compared to none? Inovation is not necessarily improvement, just a change. If some want to innovate, let them. I am extremely new tho paddling - like 6 months so im no expert but has anyone mentioned doing away with wood canoes? NO. Just the option of trying new things. It helps the sport grow. If we left it up to tradition only, how many do you think would still be in the sport in 5 years? 10? 20? Im willing to bet that at some point a canoe was built, and some time after someone came up with the idea of adding something to the canoe so it wouldnt tip over so easily in the water. Do you think they were chastised for ruining tradition? I say let innovation happen until someone tries to allow motors other than muscle.

#25 Sun, 03/02/2008 - 9:17pm

Has there ever been an innovation in outrigger that was banned?

#26 Wed, 03/05/2008 - 3:14pm

Sub 400 lb hulls, foot braces, new hull designs that don't "conform", full composite paddles, etc. None of these really change the "spirit" of paddling, but they are all banned.
No changes for the sake of no changes is not in the best interests of the tradition of paddling. The real tradition is 6 people working together. Until you add a motor, its still paddling.

#27 Wed, 03/05/2008 - 3:59pm

Personally, i think the tradition and culture is with the outrigger canoe itself, not the paddlers. The Kings or rulers in days gone by would summon the best canoe builders in the land to construct the best craft they could. No rules or constraints there.

So preventing the evolution of the outrigger canoe, is in fact going against tradition.

Let's Honor these great men that went before us and continue where they left off and take advantage of the technologies and tools we have today. Don't worry, if they had access to what we have, they would have used them.

Cheers Rambo

#28 Wed, 03/05/2008 - 5:39pm

I agree with Rambo 100%
If the warriors found a way to get to another island in 1/3 less time, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

Hydrofoils - check out this website - www.foilkayak.com

Paddle smart,
eric

#29 Thu, 03/06/2008 - 8:43am

Count me in as a member of the bloggers lobby for high tech , light weight 6 man canoes.

Can you imagine what the ancient ones would have to say to a canoe builder who on purpose built a fat slow , heavy canoe to take his people into battle.

#30 Thu, 03/06/2008 - 10:16am

I love new canoes like candy.

The faster the better .I also try to take the good parts and leave the rest. I still cant get totally use to 100% graphite paddles. I started pulling competitive in the 70's and only dugouts were allowed.up here in Canada. I made one of the first strip cedar canoes.that made alot of waves. and have recently started fusion and glass canoes. but when we use to use a 400 year old cedar tree to build a canoe you could feel the tree that was 5 fot across the but and grew 200 feet in the air and was now a canoe for you. and when you pulled it would run. and the tribe would have there best builders make the best canoes. That they would bring to the race and that was part of the race. The culture was as rich as the wood.

My two penny's

Mahalo

#31 Thu, 03/06/2008 - 2:19pm

state of the art high tech is fun, really good fun.
to jump into your club KOA canoe in states........chicken skin!

there is fancy style surfing, i mean 360, aereals, ollies and all kine tricks, and there is SOUL SURFING, down the line, bottom turn, barrel and cutback all in one fluid line.

just a matter of styles. just a matter of tastes.

wich ever, Outrigger is a true link with a tradition way beyond my understanding, but well rewarded the ones we jumped on it ah?

i think if you are gonna do some inovation, do it just so its help more people to experience this tradition,and most of all do it with respect.

i recon....

#32 Fri, 03/07/2008 - 5:05am

folks hold on to the past which only hinders the inevitable. this accient form of transportaion has evolved to a sport which i believe the Canoe assostioations have been trying to introduce to the Olympics ever since i was a teenager. innovation is always good when it betters something.

#33 Thu, 03/06/2008 - 7:34pm

culture or innovation....two totally different subjects imo when it comes to sports..in mostly all sports there is some limitations or standards for equipment...example baseball....in the pros they use Wood for bats why because of tradition they could go to say titanium it would change the game and how it's played. Even sailing (americas cup) even the boats have restrictions.
like marianolarghi said if you've ever been in a Koa Canoe (I myself like the open ocean) like in states or even in long distance races thats where you feel the mana of our sport and culture.
I think changes in certain equipment in any sport is fine so long it doesn't change the way history or tradition of the sport.
Like making a lighter hull or paddle or even putting in CHINES well I dunno about that but once you start messing too much with dimensions then its not what the sport was meant to be to honor the traditions of the polynesians , micronesians and Hawaiians....
Look wouldn't wearing fins and web gloves make you swim faster?...then why don't the athletes wear them in meets.
Are you allowed to wear webs in surf meets?
I'm all for innovation but once ones culture is gone it's very hard to get it back.....Look at our Language (and not english) it's only now making it's way back....look at hula same thing happened to it.
Maybe we can restructure the divisions....like open unlimited...where there is no limitations on equipment and what is used...do you think a water craft with a motor would show up eventually...L..don't they call that sport speed boat racing.
I don't think canoe paddling was meant to be easy for the average JOe or Jane ....I think I would rather see the Molokai crossing go back to it's roots and make it IRON no rotations though I wouldn't want to paddle it with those ole boar Paddles....e a.....jus my elua coconuts...

#34 Thu, 03/06/2008 - 10:01pm