My new found friend canoemaker got me thinking, why isn't Outrigger canoe paddling in the Olympics? With all the silly-ass "sports" that are in the Olympics why not Outrigger, or Surfing, for that matter? I sense a cultural bias at work here. Is it because these sports were invented by Brown People? What is the "critical mass" of competitors to which canoe maker referred in that "other" thread? Are a certain number of Bulgarian participants in tights required to gain admission? Please explain.
Submitted by Jim on Fri, 03/21/2008 - 6:10pm
triathlon took a long time to get into the olympics. on the 3rd attempt at establishing a world body it succeeded, however with much difficulty. matching the regulations of the olympic body is a pretty big task. i think you need like 70 countries (im, guessing the exact amount) across 4 continents to even be considered. i think they scrutinise standards on drug testing, athlete sponsorship etc that are very hard to pass (not that athletics sets a good example).
i was told by a colleague at the triathlon world body that the easiest ticket in, woudl be to align under another 'canoeing' federation - kayak... i dunno why, i guess its the convenience of bundling it with other sports, or its might be a leverage thing. my view is its better petitioning the south pacific games for hawaii and new zealand inclusion, maybe...
#1 Fri, 03/21/2008 - 11:35pm
Canoe/kayak is already at the limit with the male and female sprint and slalom athletes , I heard China wanted Dragon boating as a demo sport in Beijing but a full field would have used the ENTIRE athlete allocation !
Lets face reality, its NEVER going to be in the Olympics and with the limited numbers of countries participating and things like Zero drug testing it shouldn't be anyway.
#2 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 12:20am
Hello Jim
The difficoulty now days is that in adition to fulfiling all these standards the number of participants is quite limited and in order for a new sport to come in another needs to be kicked out and ,when WW kayak/canoe came in ,chronometer cyclists(you know racing on wooden oval) were kicked out and even once you are in olyimpics at first you are on probation ,and until you get on 3 consecutive olympics you are not that safe to be kicked out.And in WW canoeing this already hapend in one short shoving on 72' Munich olympics and after that not until 92 barcelona where another debute was made and the threat of being kicked out almost hapend in Sydney where a huge artificial course had to be made and that provided a good exuse for the organisers to drop it and as far as i know that is the only time in that national federations paid(cca 2mio US) for an 1/2 of curse to be made US federation i think paid 100K USD but the main contribuitor leading force on artificial courses were the french.
So for outrigger and surfski to have a shot at it the best is to come under wings of ICF and even then it mostly depends of the organisers (lots of politics involved )of the event which new sports they want to look at.
As teh min problem is probably that some of the old sports dont need to go trough all the scrutiny each time .
Remember the golf was pushed by the chinese(one of the mayor chinese investors is a owner of huge number of golf courses in china) for this olympics but the golfers didnt want to ,probably afraid of geting caught on doping (probably not steroids more likely cocain and similar)
#3 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 12:26am
on one hand we have Charles Villerme, the president of the International Va'a Federation, WORKING REALLY HARD, of course with all the board members and Countries Representatives, to make it happend, bring Our sort to the Olimpics.
on the other hand the reality of the Olimpic commitie is that they are allready trying to cut of disipilnes on each edition, i mean the games grew so much over the years that the logystics are tending not to be viable. so its gonna be really hard to make it happend. a full house of commitment and detication.
who is in?
who is out? of this goal........
#4 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 1:14am
You have to start lobying in ,to kick out some traditional sports ,like clay pigeon shooting( i think it is called skeet and trap) where a bunch of beer belied guys shoots it out or equestrian where you dont know who too test on drugs horse or the rider .
And when we are at the doping testing did you know that for some team sports like footbal/soccer and basketball &handball there is no drug test any more as they have come to an agrement with the federations that they would enforce it ,but they don't in practice as there is to much money involved.
In 92' at the barcelona games where profesionals first came in team sports the dream team who smoked every one, came only on the condition that there would be no doping test and the federation guaranted for them,and hastn't been one scince then.
#5 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 2:15am
You have to start lobying in ,to kick out some traditional sports ,like clay pigeon shooting( i think it is called skeet and trap) where a bunch of beer belied guys shoots it out or equestrian where you dont know who too test on drugs horse or the rider .
And when we are at the doping testing did you know that for some team sports like footbal/soccer and basketball &handball there is no drug test any more as they have come to an agrement with the federations that they would enforce it ,but they don't in practice as there is to much money involved.
In 92' at the barcelona games where profesionals first came in team sports the dream team who smoked every one, came only on the condition that there would be no doping test and the federation guaranted for them,and hastn't been one scince then.
#6 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 2:15am
Aloha Canoemaker,
did you know IVF is making the Loby? all the efforts are going that direction.
my Question is: does the hole Outrigger-Va'a Ohana united on persuing this Goal?
#7 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 4:49am
It would be interesting to see how the U.S. Team would be chosen. Who would make the call? What would the criteria be? I guess you'd have to see how the crew is chosen in rowing, and take it from there.
#8 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 5:00am
Jim's U.S. Olympic v-6 crew: Kai, Karel, Mike Judd, Andy Penney(is he American yet?), Manny K., Donavan Leandro
#9 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 5:32am
like latman said bringing in a team sport would almost be imposible as the IOC is trying to dump 20 disciplines for the next games as the crowd of athlets is geting to big .
If any chance then oc-1 ,oc-2 and surfski 1 & 2 as that would only mean 60+ athletes and 30+ support members and 30+ referes timekepeers and other delegates etc.. As the number of boats is quite limited to 10-15 boats per category . And then it is normaly limited to max 3 boats per country per category . You see the numbers ad up quite quickly
Selection of the team if we are talking Oc-6 or V-6, is made by which ever team head coach ,which decides on how well the team and team members work.
I would think that their individual succes would not be a criteria and not even taken in consideration because it realy doesnt mater
.And from my expirence the coaches don't interfere much with composition of the teams they only select the bast overall team in the end after multiple teams are pited together and that doest mean all/any the best paddlers end up in the same team.
#10 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 6:37am
Holly U.S. Dream team
The Olympics are, big big bucks, the 2010 winter Olympics are changing our whole city, buildings, highways, everything, even some laws. its hard to believe its only a couple of weeks long. if it was to become a Olympic thing sprinting would become the thing in our sport. I love to sprinting. and if the 40 mile race was to be in the hosting country would have to have a ocean. and getting on the team is always hard no matter who and where. ideally it would be a basic time trial and your on. In some cases you cant just beat the champ you have to smoke him. but ya if we want in the Olympics are, big big bucks,
#11 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 6:53am
Outrigger isn't even on the "recognized" list yet. What's up with that. I know way more people paddle than play basque pelote!
#12 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 8:37am
Aloha Jim,
to be recognized you have to have a body like the IVF, and then pro-active members working steady towards that goal. with this i want to say that its a matter of paperwork, budget, time, patience, and all of the above a few times more than what is reasonable....
on a much smaller scale i can give you this feedback, with my wife we started introducing Outrigger here in Argentina in 2003, while the first canoe was on a ship coming here, we were applying for the constitution of the Argentinian Outrigger Asociation, took us over a year an a half to have the none profit status and for them to accept the name Outrigger, wich dont have a logical translation here....anyways , my point is that almost 5 years went by and only now the Argentine Sports ORganization Institute is recognizing what we do as a sport. FROM HERE, we can start our Loby for other things. Cause we are official!
its political, is burocratic, its slow, takes time, but in order to have it done the job has to be done.
and the only way is having all the international and regional asosiations united and active in one solid KOKUA.
my Question is: does the hole Outrigger-Va’a Ohana is united on persuing this Goal...............????
#13 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 9:54am
You realy need a lot of support to come that far but that start is to have a covering body which is active not just on paper and for a covering body like IVF to be recognized it has to be founded by national federations covering certain sport ,so if the IVF wasnt founded by a couple of federations form different countrys and isnt to active than it doesnt much mater if it exsists at all as it will have hard time to become recognised ,the easyest way would probably be to join ICF after all it is canoeing not something completely different .
Even when you are under the wings of organisatin like ICF you need to constantly battle various interests ,and if you dont have a respected and pro active representative you are not geting anywhere.
And then another thing is that local federations have to start organising ,supporting and categorising races ,secure funding alocate funding per clubs work with the clubs to popularise the sport etc ,set the standards under which the races run.Set a pointing system under whitch the races and individual achivements are scored and the funds secured in acordance to these scores.
Loots of work to start and need active members. And the clubs are the most important if the clubs areno organised and active ,all else doesn't mater
#14 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 10:14am
It seem ICF is already studying to incorporate outriggers under a new and undefined category of ocean racing
Ocean Racing
Ocean racing is an exciting new discipline of the ICF intended to encompass the long distance surfski events, sea kayak racing events, sea touring and long distance out rigger events.
A working group is currently being established to bring these events under one new ICF discipline committee and a draft set of rules has been drafted to be used as working document for testing and revision over the next two years.
The different types of kayaks, varied ocean water condition, and the climate of the different regions of the World are so varied that it is going to be a major challenge to establish suitable criteria and body of rules that will fit all types of ocean racing.
There are existing events that already encompass all these types of racing together and others where these different types of races are held as independent events. Distances can vary from approximately 10 kms to multi day races over ultra long distances. Races are held in single and double surfski’s or sea kayaks and in single and six person outriggers
#15 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 10:29am
It seem ICF is already studying to incorporate outriggers under a new and undefined category of ocean racing
Ocean Racing
Ocean racing is an exciting new discipline of the ICF intended to encompass the long distance surfski events, sea kayak racing events, sea touring and long distance out rigger events.
A working group is currently being established to bring these events under one new ICF discipline committee and a draft set of rules has been drafted to be used as working document for testing and revision over the next two years.
The different types of kayaks, varied ocean water condition, and the climate of the different regions of the World are so varied that it is going to be a major challenge to establish suitable criteria and body of rules that will fit all types of ocean racing.
There are existing events that already encompass all these types of racing together and others where these different types of races are held as independent events. Distances can vary from approximately 10 kms to multi day races over ultra long distances. Races are held in single and double surfski’s or sea kayaks and in single and six person outriggers
#16 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 10:29am
Well, I can see how it's going to be difficult, as some of the local canoe asociations may have to give up some of their "power" or what have you to the ICF, if the larger events such as Hammo, Molokai and Havaiki Nui are going to be a part of it. So to partially answer Mariano's question, right off the bat there would be resistance to unification from some of these organiztions/leaders for sure. Personally, I've seen the officials of OHCRA, which governs the hoe, get pretty edgy when they sense a threat to their little world.
#17 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 11:11am
That is probably true as you can read on icf site they dont realy know what to do with all the new sports ,but that is not fault of ICF if its rather this smaller organisation dont feel the need to do anything.
And it is a shame as the oprotunity to go global is mised with everyone playing in their own small playcorner .
It seem that Surfski is moving ahead much faster with races all over the world in organised fashion,world standings,good prize money and even Surfski TV covering the events,that is probably the way to do it for start
#18 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 11:34am
thats why i was asking earlier, since one of the vital steps of even becoming recognized was only trough the ICF, and being aware of the fact that national federations loose autonomy by it, i still cant see through these matters......
i know last IVF meeting was a full house YES on joining ICF, does anybody else knows the current status of this process?
#19 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 11:55am
You just look at the history of such organizations and you see that they rarely will just up and do something like that for the greater good of whatever sport they represent. Take the old AAU for example. They used to just have so much power over the athletes, just ridiculous. It's the same old threat of play by our rules, in our events, or be banned from competition. Look how much power the NCAA has in the U.S., with very little benefit to the actual athletes, while generating tons of money for itself.
#20 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 12:33pm
Wow, never really though of the NCAA that way. Good point Jimothy.
Reading this thread has made me sad that outrigger paddling may never gain olympic status. But on the other hand who needs the olympics? I like our sport as the little "in the corner" sport too. Not everyone has to think it's great to validate it...
I realized this the other day when doing a hawaii kai run after not going in ages. I saw paddlers from all around oahu that I hadn't seen in years, as well as a guy from toronto. I went to fiberglass hawaii today to buy boat repair stuff and they told me a bunch of Tahitians were just there.
With or without the goal of being in the olympics, paddling is a real sport that unites cultures. Enough said! Just look at the array of people on this forum. If we concentrate on developing the youth paddlers in our own areas, paddling will continue to grow.
This will happen despite the powerful rich people that may or may not let our sport into their games.
Anyway, my gel coat has cured, time to go paddle.
#21 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 12:56pm
I think Dr Evil is the president of the NCAA.
#22 Sat, 03/22/2008 - 1:02pm
I been paddling our dugouts in Canada for 30 years, anyone knows anything about paddling knows the best are in the molo race. I knew this over 20 years ago long before I even seen a outrigger up close. if you put some guy on them big waves on something ( outrigger, surf ski, surfboard ) its exciting to see no matter what. and that’s a understatement. I know it will become a Olympic sport eventually. its just when. if they can sell it, and if people are willing to pay to see it, That’s all it takes. The sport just draws people to it.
#23 Sun, 03/23/2008 - 5:57am
Aloha Mulus,
i agree with you, is it cause we share the passion? for sure!.
however to have Molo CONDITIONS on an Olympic GAME is not an easy task, among all the other variables that takes place on the logystics............
another thing i 100% agree with you is that its super atractive to sale, its does have a Marketing side to it, BUT IS A LOT OF WORK, so who is gonna do the job?
are we Mature enough to join forces?
the IVF, the only Oficial Body that unites us globaly, is working on that goal, is eveybody aware of that? does everybody knows? is the comunication effective?
Could all of us help a bit more? how?
and as i speak my mind...... i know that we all have our hands full with our lifes...........
Imua IVF!
Imua Hoe Wa'a!!
#24 Sun, 03/23/2008 - 6:14am
The IVF would do better to spend their valuable volunteer time on creating a world OC1 circuit and an OC 6 circuit (from existing events). These are things that can happen and things we have control over. The Olympics requires at least 18 countries to be competing on an international stage before a sport will even be considered.
Half the "countires" that compete in the world sprints are not olympic countries. Tahiti and New Caledonia would compete under france. Hawaii, Pacific north west, California etc etc ...all USA. all these places have voting rights in the IVF but are not countries. An issue that will need addressing before any attempt at olympic recognition attempted.
#25 Sun, 03/23/2008 - 11:51pm
Here is a link to ICF draft of rules for ''Ocean Racing''
Form the looks of it IVF isnt cooperating much as for the moment these rules are very general for now but will probably become much tighter in the end.
#26 Sun, 03/23/2008 - 11:53pm
The races from Molokai to Oahu have and will continue to trump any and all races in the world in terms of gravitas. Olympics or no olympics, the Molokai Hoe and the Molokai solo will always be the races to compete in if you want to compare how you rate against the best there is.
Just my 2 cents.....
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#27 Mon, 03/24/2008 - 1:59am
Why would you want to do Olympics every 4th year when you can do Molokai every year. ... for eva.
Cheers rambo
#28 Mon, 03/24/2008 - 2:23am
I inadvertantly ommitted the Na Wahine O Ke Kai , sorry for the deletion.
Girls rock
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#29 Mon, 03/24/2008 - 3:02am
olympics dont realy mater that much ,but at least having a activer acting covering body and set of rules to enable staging events like world cup, european, american cups etc would not only popuralise sports more but would also bring it to a higher level in the end.
when speaking of molokai ,imagine if top cycling event would only be held in France or skiing only in Switzerland and flatwater competition only lets say Hungary ,or footbay only in Brazil would that mean anyting good for those sports ,probably not
For the time being Surfski scene seems to be going i the right direction and it seems that the 2 big ski manufacturers(Fenn & Epic) have earned 'muchos deneros' on chinese made boats to spend in suporting the competitions
#30 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 1:25am
Aloha Canoemaker,
i guess its a matter of taste or styles, however, the Olympic is the ultimate world sports challenge, its on an Olympic game where the best and highest competition takes place, so it does matter........at least to every Serious Athelet.
on the other hand i 100%agree with you that IVF should be working on a world tour, world sprints every 2 years like allready is plus regional cups etc.....so the globlalization of our sport goes beyond WEB FORUMS.
one is a long term goal
the other a much shorter goal and a viable reality.
hopefully!
#31 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:35am
ALL Fenn surf skis are made in South Africa - not in China.
might want to get your facts straight before you start saying stuff you don't really know ...
#32 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 4:24am
I knew that Fenn were made in SA( apologies to Fenn) but the Epic are chinese made and for a good design and average build they really charge epic prices.
I think that in couple of years these chinese companys that are now making all these boats will start making their own under their own brands and designs,like they did at every other industry.
Mainstream canoe production became a big bussines that is why most big canoe builders in US are now owned by some arab financial founds
#33 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 5:49am
Um, canoemaker... I think that the top cycling event IS held in France every year... right?
I don't see anything wrong with having our own "Tour de Ka'iwi" - wait, don't we already do that?
#34 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 8:31am
Yes tour de france is the strongest one but not the only one almost every other country has its equivalent(giro di italia,vuelta a esapana,tirreno adriatica, everyting up to tour of taiwan,or down under) to which most of the top riders come to compete
#35 Tue, 03/25/2008 - 12:41pm