Paddling and Capitalism

the ocpaddler kitchen

#4 Thu, 05/01/2008 - 10:40am

Dacho, what a wonderful product to promote ...we all know there's no insurance for "ring" damage. (-

Rambo

#6 Fri, 05/02/2008 - 12:21am

Hey, I just thought of something else. Everyone gets ripped on ocpaddler. me, you, goto, EVERYONE. We all know that. So if we agreed not to rip or flame people selling stuff, well that's just discrimination. ocpaddler folk are a lot of things but damnit, we are not discriminatory people. Asking us not to flame people who promote products is downright unjust! Post at your own risk!!

Now what can I sell on here?

Poopiepoo

#8 Fri, 05/02/2008 - 1:35pm

Jibofo

dont you mean, hyper it over and over and over again?

#10 Fri, 05/02/2008 - 2:23pm

Harv, i don't think forums are the right place for manufacturers or their reps to sell canoes. We've all see what happens when they make one little slip-up or a dissatisfied ex customer decides to rip into them on line. I'm sure we all remember that nasty thread back last year. If it were me, i would lurk the forums and PM anyone showing an interest in a new canoe and offer a chance to demo or ask for permission for a rep to contact them. Fuzerider chooses to get amongst the fun here on the forum, as is his right, and i for one love all the harmless jibes he gets as a result of his "tongue in cheek" promotion of his product, let's face it they are cutting edge canoes after all and if Jnr or Snr reckons there should be chines on canoes, i ain't gunna argue with'em.

As for paddlers discussing their favourite canoe's on line or expressing joy for their new purchase, let the rabble begin, some excellent info comes from paddlers sharing their experience and passions. Testimonials sell, not hype.

Most people don't fall for hype, we're all to smart for that. The rep that shows a genuine interest in matching the paddler too the canoe and even suggesting his opposition may have a more suitable ride in some cases, gets my $.

Two standouts that come to mind but not he only ones, are Jude from Huki and yourself Harv from Tiger Aust, you both put your customers needs first and back up your product 100%, and people consider buying your canoes on recommendation of excellent service and buying experience from others.

All the OC1/2's available now are obviously great canoes, you just gotta find the one that "pushes your button", suits the conditions and location you paddle in and flog the livin' daylights out of it.

I do love my Peggie though ... !!!

Cheers Rambo

#12 Fri, 05/02/2008 - 3:42pm

I hate to ask...but why isn't there chart with all of the of canoes their perceived optimal water conditions, paddler weights, canoe weight, ama weights, additional options,

somebody here has probably already compiled most of the data. This way anytime somebody new asks about a canoe they can be referred to a chart and we can get back to digitally roasting various paddlers!

#14 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 4:33am

I`ve got no problem with capitalistic behaviours on public forums . People like to read these things alot more than boring advertising . Who wants to look at the same old boring outrigger canoe website anyway....

That reminds me Outrigger Connection has updated thier site and theresseveral pics of yours truly in there riding a Hawaiian built carbon Fuze. Ordinarily I like to race a Chinese Fuze because thats the one thatsreadily availble to buy around the world and no doubt some people might think that the carbon boat gives the paddler some speed advantage. I race what I sell and so does the boss so , whats works for him works for me too.

My daughter let me borrow her Fuze for some racing because I was temporarily out of the Chinese ones.

Here`s a pic of her on her Fuze going up the Rainbow river in Florida: Florida river by the way are awesome places to paddle , the spring fed ones are warm and crystal clear.

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#16 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 5:27am

Sloughcanoe
Good idea in theory, but..
Everyone is going to play up that their canoe is great upwind, downwind, in the bumps, on the flats, has the widest paddler weight range, etc.
Even the hull weight is questionable. Is that totally bare hull, no rudder, cables, seat, bungees, etc., or what combination of those items. I know from having sold bicycles for 20 years that no bike that I ever weighed was as light as the factory claimed.
Face it, almost all the name canoes made today are good. Subtle differences are going to come down to you trying each and going for what works for you.
Personally, I always feel faster if my canoe has flame graphics.

#18 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 10:21am

What Id like to see is to have all the various manufacturers and dealer/reps weigh in here about the stuff they sell . And let the readers decide whats baloney and what isnt. If a rep comes up with something off the wall ,Im certain the slams will come quickly . We have a mixture here of new paddlers and some with lots of ability and experience. I think it would be a good thing for new canoe buyers to see what opinions are floating around out there regarding new equipment, and then go to the dealers directly to help them in making thier final decision.

Some reps sell more than one product line , others are committed to one .
Maybe I`ll start a reps only thread so that folks can read what the reps are saying about the stuff they sell . I would imagine that tread getting pretty amusing as well ... :)

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#20 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 12:20pm

Well said aquafiend65, all truth too .

http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/

#22 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 12:57pm

If you eliminated the endless "what boat to buy" posts, what would be left?

But seriously, if some sort of quantifyable info could be gathered, that would be great. But how many people after having plunked down over $3000 on a canoe are going to say it sucks. People (and not just paddlers) will tend to be positive about whatever they're using. And when they get a new canoe, they'll say its better.
Paddlers are winning races on all the big name canoes, including certain brands that we love to slam. They all work. There are differences, but as designs get more sophisticated, I think they get more similar in performance. No big name paddler could afford to race on an inferior canoe. Danny wins, we all want a Pueo, Karel Jr wins we all want an OC canoe, etc. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.
I''m happy with my canoe, but I'm sure I'd be happy with any of the top canoes.
Make any sense?

#24 Sat, 05/03/2008 - 5:52pm

Shawn,
I've raced bikes for over 30 years. Currently I have 4 road bikes and 1 mountain bike. Each one would pay for at least 2 canoes. The frames are all made by different people. I've got a steel frame, a carbon, an aluminum, and a titanium. They're all subtly different, but I can win (or lose) races equally on any of them.
Sure a good bike (or canoe) will trounce a piece of crap, but once you've paid the bucks for a good one of any make, had it fit to you and set up for you it will be as good but no better than any other comparable one.
Jr might not win on a molded plastic cheapo, but put him on any of the big names, let him set it up, and he (or any of the other big guns) are going to be compettitive.
Its the motor that wins its not the canoe or bike. If it was otherwise, we'd all be on the same canoe, bike, etc.

#26 Sun, 05/04/2008 - 6:07am

At this point there is nobody who custom tailors a canoe to an individual paddlers physique yet, and I suspect it will take a little more growth in our sport before it gets that "elite". So we all hunt for the boat in the current market which best suits our individual needs, if we even know what that is. The goal is to find the perfect tool for the task. The closer you get to that, the less you can blame the tool (boat) for your failures, which is desirable. As Jibofo says, all boats work, you just have to find the right one, that works for you, and you are a "pendejo" if you think a boat will work for you, because your favorite paddler drives a particular one.

Any input, be it paddler or builder is welcome at this point in history. The sport is young, consider yourselves pioneers.

Go Lakers

#28 Sun, 05/04/2008 - 9:47am

I am sure they would all be very polite, I can here Danny now, "Jr, You go first," Jr responds, Nahhhh Danny I have plenty of wins over you, It's your turn" Kai may have a paddle failure right off the start.
Good idea for the average paddler who thinks there is only one really fast boat out there, Or the guy that is not open to the fact that there are boats out there that do not get the credit hey deserve, Or that may suit there paddling style better than what they are currently on.
However for the top sponsored guys it would never fly, If a particular paddler did better on a competitors boat his free ride is over, And in Karel's case he may get disowned.

#30 Sun, 05/04/2008 - 5:22pm

well said westside, all truth too

#32 Sun, 05/04/2008 - 11:34pm

The best thing about these discussions is the revelation that there is no one "dominant" boat design or company out there. All great boats.

#34 Mon, 05/05/2008 - 3:42am

to be consistent, we would all have to swap boats as well (we being the average joes)

this could get messy

there would be hurt feelings and ruined relationships

#36 Mon, 05/05/2008 - 7:47am

To have a boat customized ( your weight/height off scale ) would likely cost about $ 2500, if done by a fast and experienced team, including a new ama closer to $ 3000.

My recommendation: do it, it's worth it.

Custom fitting is a lot of work, planning, tweaking; I am not sure that builders are offering it.

#38 Mon, 05/05/2008 - 9:20am

On http://www.vaatahiti.com someone started this forum topic "What's the best V1 and why ?"
My answer was : It's mine.... because it's mine !
Paddle whatever boat that makes you feel good.
And don't be too hard on fuzerider's back... the forum won't be the same without him.

#40 Mon, 05/05/2008 - 8:29pm

aquafiend65

This is and has been an extended project.

It may be a little too much to post all of it here; I am more than happy to discuss all those changes and ideas per email.

The entire cockpit is new, made from a custom mold.
Lower, further forward, more foot space, longer seat ... ... ...
A solid stringer system, longitudinal and transversal.
The rudder has been moved, currently about 4 inches forward.
Tiller bar steering, different rudder set up, steel cables.
Different footwell drain.
Large foot plates.
Fat ama, bow raised 4 inches, stern widened, but not superwide.

Every change is based on a specific thought, such as better trim, less roll, more control in the surf etc..

I think, - very humbly of course and only for myself - , that the boat now has definitely gotten faster, much faster.
You have to ask others if that is true or not. :)
I count strokes between two bouys(?) upwind and downwind in all conditions. I need between 10 - 15 % less strokes.

The best results after I added volume to the rear of the ama and took some rocker off the under water area to avoid 'hooking'.

In small to medium waves it takes off better.
The waterline of the ama starts just behind my center of gravity, the ability to chase the troughs has improved.

I am sitting about 1 1/2 inch lower, you can imagine the level of comfort and stability that I have in all conditions except serious backwash.

I do not expect too much gain in big, confused conditions. I think that only expert paddlers do well in these conditions anyway and the Hurricane has a hull shape that does not excell there.

What did not work for me?
Moving the rudder forward by 15". I think the lever gets to short.
In the future I would design the plug with all 'natural' curves;
I had a hard time getting my part off the mold even though I had most meticulously prepared that thing with wax and PVA.

You ask about limitations:
Moving the centre of gravity forward lowered the bow. The Hurricane has a narrow bow. Initially I felt that having more of that narrow bow in the water limited the maneuverabilty.
I dont feel that anymore. It must have been the rudder position, now corrected.

I have a single footwell and the cockpit area/foot well is lowered. The boat is slightly 'wetter' that before. I have a custom foam part that I velcro into the foot well to reduce available space. Works nicely.

In the last race I lost my seat and I let it go. I paddled sitting on the deck in 20 mph downwind conditions. After about 10 min I got used to it and continued almost as usual to the finish.
Thus, small improvements will always be needed to avoid such things in the future.

Overall I have been very fortunate that the changes have led to improvements. I read a lot about boat design, but there is no guarantee that the effect of a modification will be what you hope for, as you very well know.

I do all the work myself. The experts here in Kailua, Oahu, live close by and they have been very kind in answering my questions. The neat thing is that they all have different approaches, ranging from purely empirical to very well read.
All of them are excellent boat builders, and fortunately none of them is anywhere near a 'cutting corners' type of guy.
Google is quite helpful, too.

Currently I am planning to put two sizable drain holes into the boat, one at the stern, one in front of the cockpit. Something close to a 2 inch diameter with a screw-on lid. Maybe a pressure coocker mechanism ?

I'd love to support all this with a picture; the final phase, taking care of the cosmetics, will start once I have the drain holes put in. After that, the picture.

Total time: 12 months, 6 months planning with different plugs that I did end up not using. 6 months after the project took off once a solid mold had been made.

I work with West Systems, Duratec and carbon fiber only; the cockpit has been reinforced with 1/4 balsa core, also core mat.
Only the best material will do.

Currently I am dailing the boat in; the tiller bar steering is not entirely there yet, but much improved from the first version and doing a good job.

Cost: ? It's a hobby. You know how expensive all these things are, Duratec, tools etc.

My estimate of $ 2500 means: if you would produce all the parts needed and spomeone would have them put in professionally, you may get away with $ 2500. Yes, you would need a boat first.

So yes, it's the paddler; but the boat has to fit your physique.

Aloha

#42 Mon, 05/05/2008 - 10:37pm

Hi Eckhart

Love to hear about new stuff and R&D.

Please put me on your list of go to guys you would ask or bounce ideas off of. Happy to discuss from a performance perspective. Lots to relate from outside the canoe box.

Aloha,
pog

968 - 8669

paddleshop@hotmail.com

www.onnopaddles.com

#44 Tue, 05/06/2008 - 1:39am

Aloha eckhart,
a lot of things you describe you did to your boat to customized her makes me even happier to what i did to my oc-1 design, and it really makes a lot of sense all your view points and you put into words what i did by heart on my design, i know is my first job, and of course i will improve with the folowings, but i had to post a picture cause i wanted same things when i started this plug 3 years ago.
aloha!!

Aloha Rambo,
remember when i started this one, i was showing you pics, uh i wish one day you could ride her.......

aloha!

#46 Tue, 05/06/2008 - 12:07pm

Hi Rambo,

while I was making the changes I thought indeed: am I rebuilding the Pegasus and therefore reinventing the wheel ??

You are right with that observation.

In the end it did not turn out to be a Pegasus, I have to say that I am glad about that, because it could have turned into a nightmare with a messed up hybrid between Hurricane and Pegasus:

the hull shape remains different, the midsection is entirely different, the ama is very different.

You know that nuances matter. The characteristics of the boat are different overall.

I think, from your previous posts, that you contemplated to make similar changes on a Hurricane and decided to buy a Pegasus because many of these things have been done there, plus a change in the rocker. And you are correct to a degree.

I love the glide and acceleration and I did not want to change the underwater hull; except for a little more volume at the stern, but I will not do that for now.

The key thought was to be able to trim the boat well and to sit comfortably for several hours ; next, to get the ama out of the water.

Unfortunately, I couldn't sit on a Pegasus either, neither trim it correctly, without making changes.

Height 6'5", weight ~ 205 lbs.
The footwell moved 6.5" forward, that puts my own center of gravity about 3 inches forward.

I have a set of shortened amas, 36" inches mid-to-mid distance, which I have not tried on this boat yet.
My previous impression was that it is good in some conditions, but limiting in others.

#48 Tue, 05/06/2008 - 9:30am

Yes Mariano, you have every right to be proud of KA NALU NUI., you did a fine job on her.

Do the foot wells extend to near the bottom of the hull? If not you could get extra stability doing so. Might just be the picture, but with the lowered seat level, the ankles look to be seat height.

Eckhart, i think that was a wise decision to retain the flattish bottom hull section of the Hurricane 4ft from the bow, i believe it has much to do with the exceptional glide and acceleration of the Hurricane.

To think of all the work and planing you put into the project and the on race day you loose a seat, that was funny. No doubt you intended to play with the adjustment for trim eh.

Cheers Rambo

#50 Tue, 05/06/2008 - 12:37pm

Mrs Rambo agrees with you (nodding head) i need to be kept in line.... ha ha ha

I suspect the flat water speed may have improved more so from the center of gravity being further forward thus making the bow plow like a K1 and lifting the stern thus reducing the surface area at the rear half of the canoe, but still retaining the long waterline. The wetted surface profile now would be more teardrop shaped and probably more efficient.

It would be interesting to profile it through the Hydrostatic program that i ran my Hurricane through.

and see the difference.

If you increase the stern volume you may end up pealing the nose more on bumps. Shape some foam and glue it on the hull with contact glue so you can remove with heat later and try.

The Zephyr has had volume reduced from the stern compared to the Fusion which it was based on., might be a clue.

Cheers Rambo

#52 Tue, 05/06/2008 - 2:51pm

The drag profile has definitely changed, but it has likely returned to 'normal' only.
A heavier, taller person sinks the stern almost down to the seam at rest already.
I watched the Pa'a Solo finishers at Portlock coming into Hawaii Kai. Some people had a real good trim, many did not. Tall people on a Hurricane definitely did not seem to have a good trim.

Thus I do not think that I have improved the drag profile overall; just brought it back closer to what you have been enjoying all the time.

#54 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 12:25am

and the help forum is here

http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/phpBB2/index.php

Rambo

#56 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 2:12am

Mahalo Eckhart,
i am in Argentina, so bringing one was out of my budget, plus the adventure of shaping my own design was more viable, romantic and challenging. after 3 years wich took me to make it a reality i ended up spendig almost the same of a brand new canoe plus shipping and handling, but it was little by little and now the rewards are nowhere to messure.
the thing is i totaly agree to what you and Rambo bring up on your previous, so it makes me even happier with my boat,
i dont get much interaction with boat buiders here, specially oc (since im the only one) so this topic, and specially you guyz and Aqua aswell, are good friends allready.

aloha and good luck.
Mariano.

#58 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 4:56am

marianolarghi
She's a beauty.
Cant wait to paddle her. I think you are being to modest my friend. The cost of building the plug and mold are easily 5 times the cost of a new carbon canoe. That, of course is taking into consideration the labor as well as the materials.

echart, Rambo......
All this info is outstanding. Im stoked to start my oc1 build. Its gonna be a handshaped, not molded. Should be interesting.
Working on the templates. Hopefully start mowing foam this month.

#60 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 5:44am

yes Aqua,
i will clarify my math to my previous post.
the cost of a top of the line oc-1(USA or AUATRALIA) at that moment, plus shipping and handling equals the cost of only materials (in Argentina) of producing a plug and all what is involve.
of course you are absolutly right that i didn count the labor, wich i did myself, and never i thought would take so much.

so happy to hear you are gonna get into shaping a plug. now that i look back, it was one of the greater steps, rewarding, so much fun to start form blocks, and to actually end up with your desing, how she unfolds, and when she starts reveling, and those lines with the planner.......uh....nice.
right here a link to more pics of her and how Outrigger is doing on this side of the globe.....

http://outriggercanoe.ning.com/profile/MarianoLarghi

when you come to Argentina not only you will paddle her i will show you the pics and videos of the process....

aloha!

#62 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 6:24am

Yep, there are many ways to achieve the same thing, even reverse lofting, but i never understood lofting at all. You can also do it with string lines and cheap laser levels and a measuring tape. The program allows for infinite curve adjustments anyway, so even a rough profiling will be close.

That easy to use software program can quickly design just about any craft and is perfectly suited to stripper hulls or making plugs by filling in the voids between the forms with foam and shaping to the edges.

One of these days i will finish my cedar stripper OC2, test panel weights indicate a finished weight between 20 - 22 kg with 3/16 th cedar and 4 ounce "S"glass. Strong as and designed specifically for two 70kg paddlers.

Cheers Rambo

#64 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 11:57am

Buggar... that's why Epic Surfskis routed their mold for the V10 out of solid timber. You live and learn eh.

Rambo

#66 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 1:50pm

Rambo .. from way above .... cool !

Marianolarghi .... sorry about the foam .... ask us about this stuff next time ..... shorten your learning curve by 30+ years.

Edit, apologies if you did and I missed it ..... pog

Fairing an already 'done' mold is not fun + its never the same.

#68 Wed, 05/07/2008 - 8:55pm