First off-
Nothing personal against Jr. This post is not intended to insult or undermine his (many) accomplishments in any way, but rather to start a dialogue for ideas on how the system could be more accurate, not saying that it isn't fine the way it is now.
The Molo Solo has long been billed as the 'World Championship' of OC1 racing. But think about it: It is one race on a certain platform that favors certain aptitudes of OC1 paddling and the local paddlers. You can rebut this statement all you want, but that is not the purpose of the forum, the purpose is for ideas to change this format, if it even needs to be changed.
Think about it: Jr. has won 7 YEARS. He is a truly remarkable OC1 paddler, probably the greatest in it's short history, not to mention with his OC6 steering (and paddling) prowess, arguably the best OC paddler in the world. But all the years he has won the Molo Solo are in HIS conditions: the Surf. Jr. is the best OC1 surfer in the world, hands down. You could probably start him 10 minutes behind everyone else in the Molo Solo and he'd still win. But flat water? Come on, Kai, Danny, Greg Long, Maui, Manny, all these guys can pretty consistently beat him, not to mention a probable long list of Tahitian, Australian, and other great flatwater paddlers us here in our 'Hawaii is King' mindset never even heard of. Upwind? The list grows even larger. Look at last year's Molo Solo. So, with Karel winning a race catered to his style, does it really validate the title 'OC1 World Champion'? What if the so-called 'World Championship' race was held in SoCal. We all know who would win, would Danny be World Champion then? What about a mixed conditions race in Australia, and Greg Long won? Yeah, go ahead, bring up Kai and Karel's 1-2 finish at Hamilton last year, again, i'm not looking for a rebuttal, just trying to evoke some thought. Basically, if the race format was anything other than what it is, the race would be more 'up-for-grabs', agreed?
What about the fact that the race is just that: ONE RACE. People get sick, bugs, have half-assed races, make uncharacteristic mistakes, and other things may come up.
I've ran through all the typical logistic reasons: Hawaii is the OC1 epicenter; all the top OC1 paddlers are (arguably) from Hawaii, so it should be in Hawaii; travel would make it difficult to do an official trans-pacific race series; and so on and so forth.
Should the format be re-vamped? Should it be left alone? What are possible alternatives? What could solicitation for more financial backing provide? Maybe a 3-race series in each of the aforementioned locations, with point totals a la surfing's WCT? With financial backing, each race could have purses like Pa`a Hawaii's Molo Solo and make travelling for the paddlers worth the trip, not to mention a more complete format for determining the World Champion.
Too much money/logistics? How bout instead of Molokai-Oahu, how bout a 3-day race around Oahu? The first day could be an upwind course, maybe along Northeast Oahu. The second day, flatwater along leeward oahu. The last Day, surfing run like Makai Pier to Sand Island. Oahu paddlers would still have the advantage of local knowledge, but it would be a start. It could basically be an expanded version of Pa`a's Koa Nui.
I apologize, I can see this being a divisive and unpopular thread, but it is what it is.
Thoughts?
Submitted by hiwahiwa on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 1:00pm
I'm sure we'll see Tahitians competing in the Solo pretty soon, here. As for what a "real" world championship might be-who cares? It's the biggest race in the world for oc1. Maybe they should just drop the words from the title of the race. The world sprints are called a world championship by the IVA, but do any paddlers regard it as the most important race in the world? Hardly. In oc1 or oc6, Kaiwi is where the top paddlers compete for bragging rights, regardless of what you call the races in name.
#71 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 1:01pm
Paddling is regional. Guys are good in the condition in which they practice.
Thats why Jr. and Kai dominate with rudders in big water like the Molo
Thats why Danny dominates in the chilly, flat waters off Catalina.
Thats why Lewis Laughlin dominates in humid temperatures with no rudder.
Until a guy (or gal) wins at least all of those races in the same year, its a stretch to call them a WORLD champion. They are the champions of their conditions.
However, they are all definitely world-class athletes.
#72 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 1:06pm
Yeah , and I`d say Lauren Bartlett could win them all , at least until another one of those smokin hot sprint kayakers takes a liking to outrigger racing...
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#73 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 2:08pm
Is Catalina really part of the "world championship" discussion?
#74 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 2:24pm
Yeah okay, maybe not. But still....
#75 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 3:34pm
Fuze,
Don't be hatin if you can't paddle a rudderless boat in a sidewind...some of us on here can and its friggin fun. Yes I may go a few extra hundred yards when I'm racing a V-1 but I'm also moving faster so it pays off, and no one can draft me...I'm actually gonna be selling my boat pretty soon so I can train rudderless until my new boat gets here.
In my opinion, paddling a rudderless boat is very different but can also be way more fun as the boat glides so effortlessly (until you have to hold water to turn that is...)
#76 Sat, 05/10/2008 - 4:29pm
nb1376,
Trust me , I know how rudderless boats handle , I`m a marathon paddler turned outrigger.
I do like rudderless canoes and that Tahitian one is something I`d like to own someday.
They can be a bear to handle in a strong cross wind but I suppose that`s part of thier appeal....
Hiro C, can you ship me one of those canoes?
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#77 Sun, 05/11/2008 - 12:58am
I just dropped one in the ocean, north of Huahine. If the winds and currents are OK, it shall be off New England next year...
#78 Sun, 05/11/2008 - 8:10pm
Mahaloz Bruddah.... :)
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#79 Mon, 05/12/2008 - 1:54am
I had a dream last night that there was a race.....it was running down wind and the Hawai'i boys were all in a pack leading the race connecting with bump after bump. The Tahitians were not far behind, but definately getting it handed to them.......then the race intered a lagoon and the Hawai'i boys jumped on rudderless and took off........soon the Tahitians hit the beach and also switched into thier rudderless and the chase began. The Tahitians quickly closed the gap and it was Jr and Lewis out front going head to head, each bow surged ahead of the other with each stroke.....muscles burning the two raced for the finish line not 100 meters away......when suddenly poops popped up out of the water and started slinging s#@t at them........I never did see who won.
#80 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 6:23am
You're obviously already spending way too much time on this forum.
#81 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 6:31am
Talking about 'WORLD CHAMPION', Lance Armstrong and the Molokai solo -- Lance Armstrong was 'King of the Mountain' and Lewis Laughlin has won both the Super Aito as well as the tough (upwind) Molokai solo.
Running downwind may be all about fun, but hull volume to go quickest in these conditions favours a surfski, so the outright Molokai champion is more likely the guy who paddles both disciplines.
Calling a downhill champion on a surfski with an outrigger a 'WORLD CHAMPION' just shows how much hype is laid on this category of padlesports
#82 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 1:22pm
It's tough to argue against Lewis Laughlin as the world's best all-around ocean paddler. Several hoes, Super Aito, and surfski molos champ-it simply boggles the mind that one guy has won all those things.
#83 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 2:04pm
Molokai `s the one to win . No other race even comes close.
If you don
t win it , you ain
t the world champion .If you stayed home and didn
t go to the race , there
s always next year.http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#84 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 2:14pm
Super Aito, Hawaiki Nui, Hamilton, Molokai-these are all very close in prestige. The solo is the biggest race for oc1 only. If you're curious, McFuze, ask Jr. himself which one he'd like to win the most.
#85 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 2:44pm
I like the idea of having an OC1 world cup circuit , like the surfskiers have where you gain points over a whole season of racing and at the end the paddler with the most points wins.
I think this type of set up should culminate with the most prestigious end of the season event which has been the Molokai solo World Championships .
Cycling is set up this way and it works well . You have a World Championship one day event , a world cup series and a huge stage race with the worlds best competing .
The one who`s wearing yellow at the end of the tour is generally regarded by all as being the worlds best no matter who won the world cup or world championships.
And although Molokai solo isn`t a huge multiday event , it still is the event to win if you want to be world champion .
http://maineoutriggerchampionships.blogspot.com/
#86 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 3:14pm
The only problem with the Tour analogy is that the winner can genuinely be called the world's best cyclist, beacuse of all the different stages, terrain etc. I love Jr. too, but everyone knows he wouldn't win this type of all-around event.
#87 Tue, 05/13/2008 - 3:34pm
i can understand that a lot of people believe that 'hawaii is the centre of the paddling universe' just as the tahitians believe that tahiti is 'the' centre of the paddling universe.
sure you can have a 'world' circuit with hawaii and tahiti races and it'll be mean as - but it will still oly be tahiti and hawaii paddlers on local waterform with a few internationals who are rich enough to afford getting spanked. so where is a fair place to figure out actually who is best overall? surf, flat, rudderless, sidewind? if someone is open to accepting different waterforms, temperatures and mastering all the skills of a canoe then a world series circuit would be an ideal place to rank oneself. i say go for a world circuit with:
#88 Tue, 05/20/2008 - 5:41pm
I like that Idea with every major established race being on the tour. I am from cali and I hate getting my ass kicked every year in the molo solo but, that race is the one I would love to win the most. What are the dates on all of those races? I say the first person to race as many of those races and place the best could be the champ. I mean how hard could it be to establish a pro/am division in these races, you call up the race directors and you talk about adding a division in their race to make it part of there series. You say to them we want to help you advertise your race by making it part of the world tour.
Oh yeah and all this talk about how we don't want paddling to become like surfing. The reason I stopped surfing contests was that it was a judged event. Remember in paddling the First across the line is the First Place Finisher.
Another thing maybe instead of trying to market the races we do maybe the key might be to market the people racing them. I mean half the reason we like this sport is because we like the lifestyle it brings us.
#89 Tue, 05/20/2008 - 8:08pm
k, your list of reces is centered around the Pacific. If we want paddling to really grow there should be races in the Atlantic, in Europe, in Asia... Some races like the Molo or the Aito could bring more points than the others, but we have to open to the rest of the worl.
#90 Tue, 05/20/2008 - 10:28pm
I only was going off the list from above, but yes like the surfing world they have five star events around the world to keep the competition close in all regards.
#91 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 6:27am
K, your feedback is great, but I think one thing that will never be accepted is OC1 and V1 fusing into one sport, and they should stay separate. Again, like NASCAR and Indy Car racing, both can coexist. One is not more than the other, they're both accepted. They are both unique and should be their own sport each. With that said, GETTING SPONSORSHIP IN ORDER IS KEY, then you could attract top talent and make it worth them flying to do a couple of races on a world circuit type thing. Keeping it around the pacific is the right thing for now, but as the sport grows and more sponsorship comes in, then it can spread. Maybe in 5 years the blackburn could be one of those point races. Personally, I would like to see an OC1 event at the Liberty challenge on this world circuit instead, that would be awesome. With that said, taking into account travel expenses, prize money, logistics of travelling, etc. I would go with this:
OC1-
1)MoloSolo
2)Hamilton CUp
3)Catalina
V1-
Super Aito is just fine how it is right now. but if you need a more race format
1)Super Aito
2)Vaka Eiva
3)????
#92 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 7:05am
The Catalina would be great except for the fact that its a 35+ mile paddle, its a relay, and you might not get any wind. I know this I live in Cali.
The Molo Solo would be a given, after that Hammo would be a good one, then?
#93 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 7:39am
Tyson, good point with the Catalina...Could you suggest another well known, good Cali course? I'm trying to think of the distribution of race courses so that a good blend of all conditions is met, essentially to even out the field so no one guy has an advantage.
1-MoloSolo is good because it's in Hawaii and it's the quintessential surfing run.
2-Hammo is good because it's a good all-around race, ie. some upwind, some downwind, confused waters, a good mix.
SO WHERE IS THE BEST POSSIBLE LOCATION FOR THE FLATWATER RUN???
#94 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 9:02am
Well the best locational run is Cabrillo beach to the inside of long beach harbor its a good run and consistently windy out there the only problem with that would be the fact to run is 10.5 miles. The other option would be the Malibu to Marina Del Rey race its 16.5 miles and you have 14 miles of open ocean then a flat harbor to the finish. I think it would be easiest to have an established to start with but if the course needs to be longer then you can always change it to fit.
#95 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 9:50am
sweet i agree about oc1 and V1. i think a solution maybe to have 2 divisions for OC1 and V1, it would be really interesting to see the difference, i think it would generate a lot of attention, positive energy and discussion.
the tahitians are itching to do the solo rudderless, just lack of vaa canoes (maybe kaimanu composites will get that sorted for next year, the oahu champs was cool rudderless).
nz is ok for all canoes and conditions, bro you got to have NZ! come on koe, keep it real, can go visit peter jackson. raro is sweet for both and so is hamilton island given the into the wind component.
really like the sound of the malibu to marina del ray solo - great finish for spectators and harbour is good place to have an after race function. also maybe angelina jolie might see me and want to come and be my fan girl after the race. i am in - where do i register?
guaranteed got to have solo and only the paa one imo - with rudderred and rudderless division. automatic cred with tahitian if you have rudderless - if you got teh balls to do it rudderless, let them hang out and see how tiny they are on double overhead swells in 30knot winds - yehaa!
#96 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 3:10pm
Dude you don't want to start bashing those top rudderless guys go see Luke and the video hes got in the making, they'll kill you going up wind then when you get to the surf and you think ok pay backs a bitch, they basically just bend you over again. The video Luke's making is an all rudderless I think from the Super Aito, someone really needs to tell those guys they don't have a rudder.
#97 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 8:35pm
Cali race could be the us surfski championships race up north.
#98 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 10:56pm
come and check out the "Dragon Run" international surf ski and outrigger race in Hong Kong in November. Take a look at www.surfski.info for reports on last year's race.
Last year we had over 50 participants (21 OC1's) in what was a 25 km predominantly 'downhill' course with USD$10,000 prizemoney on offer.
This year we are hoping to get over 100 participants with $10K prizemoney each for both the surf ski and the outrigger divisions.
This year the race will be on November 22. Start making plans now to come and visit Hong Kong and join in one of the most 'entertaining' cities in the world - plus we have some pretty good conditions to paddle in.
For those of you who are interested, there is also a 9-man change race which goes around Hong Kong island on the same weekend (November 23) so bring along a crew and join in.
We plan to make the Dragon Run the biggest race in Asia which allows not only the local paddling community but also other international competitors to come and join in a quality event.
#99 Wed, 05/21/2008 - 11:50pm
You don't need a Media Rep for the race do you HK Paddler. Dragon Run - The Movie has a nice ring to it.
I just need plane fare and Accomm paid to Cam up the field and shoot a movie.????? Free DVD's for all.
PM me the good news.
Cheers Rambo
#100 Thu, 05/22/2008 - 12:18am
This is a very interesting topic. World Sprints in Australia? IVF? Tis' tricky too, but those are V1 sprints, and run to include as much nations as possible.
Kona tours
#101 Wed, 12/10/2008 - 9:20am
the fact of the matter is there are different types of boats and different types of racing
one man vs. surfski
rudderless vs. oc1
marathon vs. sprint
stovk paddle boards vs. open
k1 vs. c1
they are completely different types of paddling and cant be compared, how is the molokai considered a world championship when there is races in asia and the middle east given enormous amounts of money? answer that question
the bottom line is no matter what people are still going to argue or have their own opinion on what is to be considered the "right sport" or the "right way of paddling", every one is from different countries, states and cultures which result in different ideas and talents.
#102 Wed, 12/10/2008 - 9:55am
all the paddlers and canoers and kayakers and whatever you call each others need to designate a place some where on earth that all different types of water crafts can meet and have a race off. Maybe from florida to the tip of South Africa...
Then I'd solidify my status as "World Champion"......
#103 Wed, 12/10/2008 - 10:22am
As a new-comer to the sport, I am struck by the fact that most of the races (at least on Oahu) seem to be downwind, favoring better "surfers". Also as a newcomer to the sport, and as a basically lazy person, logistically it is much easier for a race to end up in the same spot... then you end up where you originally parked and don't have to find a ride back. Seems like an up-and-back course achieves both: you end up where you put in, and it takes the advantage away from someone that only surfs well. (Not that anyone wants to go up and back across Molo... but for the other races) Just a thought...
#104 Wed, 12/10/2008 - 11:46am
Grovpb4- Like around the Island.
Ever since I could remember the Molokai is been the big one. although the Olympics is world widely recognized. I would still say the Molokai is as big race as they come. But to bad for me cause I love sprints.
#105 Wed, 12/10/2008 - 12:20pm
Whether you guys like it or not from an outsider looking in the solo is the unofficial World Championship of OC1 paddling. But it is expensive and hard to get to. I'm coming over in April for the Kaua'i World Challenge because it was the next best thing for me and doable with the family. Guess you could argue about the status of this race as well.
We are rapt Karel Jr is coming to Australia to paddle in Western Australia and the Outlaw Open Water race on the Victorian surf coast on 24th January. So even if the title is unofficial the "King" is travelling the world spreading the word to his "Subjects". He is a worthy champion.
#106 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 10:45am
The last Molokai solo (ruddersteered sit-on craft version) was won by a Tahitian. His time was quicker than that of Karel jr.
He (Lewis Laughlin) would no doubt beat Karel jr in any contest where single blade paddling skill is the decider......
No need to tell me that all of the above has been said before, in fact just a about all in this thread has been said over and over
#107 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 12:49pm
Above message was sent after reading only the first page of this thread..... I see now that another page followed, but the jist of my comment still applies
#108 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 12:53pm
Unbelievable! this thread is actually about a year old
#109 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 12:57pm
How's this:
All individuals wanting to compete in a world championship to determine the "best paddler", should create an association that has 1 agreeable "boat" that individuals can have manufacturers build for them and use it against each other. Same boat, different builder with definite specifications on material, weight, placement of iako and ama, etc...Boat builders still build boats, and it puts the racing on an even plane.
Then, pick 5 locations around the world, have points assigned, and, every year, rotate the one bonus point race that gets extra points.
Might be expensive to travel to all these places, so maybe an association or companies will sponsor paddlers, (1,2,age group winners), from their area to attend. Maybe prize money can be awarded. Sounds pretty expensive...May shut down the overall boat manufacturing business as each builder has their own ideas on shape... Just a suggestion..
#110 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 1:34pm
Same boat specs... BS ! No need for that.
#111 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 1:59pm
Agree with Hiro.
#112 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 6:03pm
Surfing doesn't have specifications for there surfers boards. Surf ski doesn't have an "agreeable" boat. Why should we have one craft. The major sponsors in the sport are the boat manufactures, if they all made the same boat they wouldn't make any money.
#113 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 6:24pm
Wow, this thread lives on....I suspect it will gain allot of steam come around March/April.
I don't think boat choice has anything to do with it and only takes away from the origin of the thread: How do you fairly determine and crown a 'World Champion' in OC1? I go back to Luke's original post on the first page, that was a great suggestion and would say that would be the best blueprint to get something going in the right direction. I think something combining events from around the world would be better, but that might be a better long term goal. Whatever is decidedif anything, it'll take tons of effort and support from paddlers everywhere as well as allot of coordination.
MoloSolo Champion will always carry the utmost prestige, but doesn't necessarily recognize the best OC1 paddler in the world....
#114 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 7:21pm
Hiro,
Try not to forget what you're trying to achieve: a fair way to decide a true world champion. Olympic K-1 racing, as well as HCRA rules come up with specs to get rid of as many variables as possible. To leave it up to the best/trained individual using all of his skill. That is all that this comment is intended.. Now, you can call it BS, or, you can offer a fair and positive way to adddress the issue. OR, you can continue to bitch and come up with no alternative. T-pop: yeah, we all know they'll lose money, but they can always make money on other boats. Not all of us are fast enough to qualify for the "World Championships" We're not in the front 10% of the bell curve.So, the boat builders will make the 10% one spec boat for those really fast guys, and, in the other divisions, they'll make the other style of boats. One boat, and you surf it or push it in the flats. Either way, you narrow it down. Otherwise, you'l only hear excuses about guys that surf real good and don't paddle good in the flats or great in the flats and suck in the surf. Again, eliminate variables one at a time, then, you can start to build a template for determining the best paddler.
#115 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 8:43pm
Formula1 : same car for evrybody ?
Running : same shoes ?
America's cup : same boat ?
Snow skiing : same skis, shoes, cloths ?
...
what's the point ?
We can have rule about min weight, max/min lenght/width, etc. and that would be enough.
Have you read the whole thread ? Propositions and ideas have been given bymany posters months ago :
- International association, possibly IVF
- Races around the world (real Championship and not One race winner)
- Various types of races (channel crossings, downwind runs, flatwater events)
- Even various types of crafts (i.e. some OC1 races and some V1 races)...
A lot of things have been written, but people don't read !
#116 Fri, 12/12/2008 - 11:07pm
For now, Molo Solo simply IS the world (OC1) championship. That's facts.
Is it a fair way to determine the best (OC1) paddler? Probably not.
But life isn't fair.
I like tyson's idea. Makes sense to me.
I like the idea of keeping OC1 and V1 independent. They're different (culturally among other things).
V1 is, in fact, fun. Probably equal fun to OC1.
Saying that Hawaii brought us this sport is demonstrating ignorance of history.
If you want a replacement for Catalina for Cali - I'd second the suggestion of the course for the US surfski champs.
#117 Sat, 12/13/2008 - 10:35am
Goodwaka, there's one race w/ single blade paddle where Jr. would beat Lewis-downwind conditions Molo solo on oc1, but I agree Lewis is the superior all-around paddler, and I doubt Jr. would argue that point. The solo is the world championship of oc1, a particular discipline. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that it determines who is the world's best all-around Outrigger canoe paddler.
#118 Sat, 12/13/2008 - 10:49am