Hurricane laminate schedule/manufacturing techniques........

Im just finishing up repainting the hull of a Hurricane. I had to take the paint and primer down to the laminate. In doing so i was surprised to see, what looked like Uni-directional carbon. If that is indeed what it is Im impressed and confused. For starters, I know of no other way than prepreg, to fabricate with Uni. Is this a prepreg laminate? Secondly, the fibers were running at 90 degrees. Why is that? Usually, as with rowing shells, the fiber oreintation is bow to stern for maximum stiffness. Anyone have knowledge of what and why they are doing this?

Submitted by aquafiend65 on Tue, 05/27/2008 - 3:22pm



Post a photo, most i've seen are bidirectional laid at 45 degrees.

Is it an early Malaysian made Hurricane? Sure it's not just a thin chopped anti-bleed through mat?

Rambo


#1 Tue, 05/27/2008 - 5:00pm


"0's probably just behind it.

Lots of prepreg is 100g or less so multiply for 'first' layer not out of the question. Ideal would be to put the "0" on the outside and "90" just under it but if considering cosmetics and avoiding potential problems .. 90 on top makes sense for higher production IMO. 2 @ <30 would be nice too.

If wet layup for sure 90 first makes sense.

Rowing shells have a mix of everything in them.

Love 'em or hate them ... they ARE made really well for demanding clients.

http://www.wintechracing.com/index.php?target=/company/index.php#

I think Vespoli has similar but have not had a look in some time.


#2 Tue, 05/27/2008 - 11:29pm


you can wet layup uni carbon if it has some form of "sticky strings" or "spider web" holding it in place , even easier again to resin infuse.

http://carb.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.9/.f


#3 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 2:28am


unidirectional fabrics can quite easyl be used in wet layup,as for direction the 90 is easyer to start with and it also depends what you want to achieve,hurricane is quite flat on the botom so a bit of 90 fibre wouldnt hurt,but in the end it is the inside layers that that do most work

We did some boats in prepreg and the uni was a material of choice for a couple of reasons ,first you have a light weight material so that you can fine tune the laminate beter ,secondly by altering the angles you virtualy get any layup you desire so no need to have many different materials on stock (in the frezer) and in the end the uni in prepreg actualy costs the about the same as a dry uni and is much cheaper than anything woven and resin contents for uni can be a bit lower(lighter).

Rowing shells are amazingly high tech ,probably for stiffnes as the rules are old fashioned enough ,so you can make them less high spec to fit the weight ,but on the other hand how long can the rowing sheel be used ?(a lifetime ,so even the highest speci is a good investment,as the designs can't progres much and the only wear and tear happens outside the water )


#4 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 3:47am


Im not sure it is uni, but after hearing all of the above, I have little doubt it is. Im fairly sure its not a wet lam, as the fibers have remained very uniform. I just wasnt aware of anyone using prepregs. I know Karel had been experimenting several years ago, but a production mold would most likely need to be a hi-temp epoxy lam, which is pretty damn pricey. Anyways, Canoemaker, you say its the inside layers that do most the work? How do you figure and in what regards do you mean? i.e....what do you mean by "work"?
Thanks.


#5 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 8:28am


Heat resistant moulds are no big deal anymore most of mine are now usable up to 130°C(tg160°C) and dont cost much more than normal

I personaly like making the boats in prepreg and only reason for not doing more of them is that they need to be painted out of the mould,because of the temperatures involved.

About the loads and ''Work'',very simplified lets say that the boat is bending what is hapening then is outside layers are loaded in tension ,core in shear and inside layers in compresion. Almost every type of fibre can withstand tension loads quite easily on the other hand compresion loads are much more trublesome for the laminate and demand more of both resin and fibre.

Carbon is superior to all others in mix of loads but on a budget you could have aramid oudside skins and carbon inside skins and the boat would be almost as stiff as full carbon one.

One thing that is quite funny is that most canoe builders use woven fabrics for the layups and i have to say that i mostly do the same since ever and my father before me. but that is mostly because 'we' don't spend to much time thinking about the loads and ideal layups otherwise it would be much beter to use more UDs and Biax fibers which work as good/beter as fabrics in most roles and are also a lot cheaper ,but do requre more atention to detail(layup directions)

Now time for some promotion :look at the SP guide to cmposites below ,most basics are explained there . And i have to say that their materials are the best ones i ever used ,bit more expensive than some but in stark contrast to most big material makers they know how and what for the materilas are used .


#6 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 9:08am


I really think this sort of question is best asked to the builder, There is too much room for speculation. I am sure that Mike would be happy to share his reasons for doing what he does, Especially with someone doing repairs on the boats.
I can address one thing I know, The carbon IS a pre preg carbon.


#7 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 9:12am


I've posted it here before, but in relation to this post, I'll put it up again.

My repaired and repainted Hurricane. Dremeled out the seam all the way around the hull, filled the gap and reinforced with a narrow strip of S-glass/epoxy resin, sanded nearly all the paint off, repainted w/PPG Concept, wetsanded, clear coated.

Damn near killed me in time and money (the paint alone was $400), but it was well worth it. Oh, and it only gained a little less than 3 lbs.

Raphael


#8 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 9:46am


Just want to clarify that there is nothing structurally wrong with this canoe that Im painting. I repaint boats all the time for various reasons......usually just a color preference.
This thread was started as an inquiry into manufacturing techniques and materials. I was surprised to see prepreg. I guess I need to get with the times....had no idea builders were doing such advanced laminates.
Canoemaker, thanks for the link. Good stuff.


#9 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 10:52am


Raphael
That's some clean work. Looks good. Just need to put some black flames on the nose.


#10 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 11:21am


My Hurricane is 3 yo and i've not seen any Uni.

These pictures are from my repair of a fully snapped in half canoe, center of hull.

Center hull, inside bottom under cockpit
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Outside hull

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Cheers Rambo


#11 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 12:23pm


Top pic looks like 282 style carbon, 5.7 ounce. 12.5 x 12.5.... 'Heavy' by most canoe / ski builder standards ... bottom looks more like 262 I think the number is... 4.8 ounce 12.8 x 8 ...

Divinycell foam ....

Nice finesse job Rambo, ever so slightly grinding out a "V" with a single skin.

Canoe maker ... out of curiosity, how old / young are you ?

Is your Dad still kicking ? Just wondering ... : )

My 2.5 year old already knows to hold / sight a part up to the light to check for flaws ... too funny to watch him do this .... He tells his mom ... 'We made this ."


#12 Wed, 05/28/2008 - 7:59pm


For onnopaddle.

I am still quite young at 27 and old man is still kicking ,but like your kid i have been in and around canoes in our workshop before i could walk,and couple of years back took over the shop from the old man .


#13 Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:50am


Cool ....

Dang, only 27, your Dad should be proud .. you have learned a lot already .... I thought you were closer to 40 something.

Aloha,
pog


#14 Thu, 05/29/2008 - 3:00am


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