Was thinking about a new business venture for you guys....
Hows about going down to Tahiti to secure building rights for one of the tahitian six man boats, getting the mold out here to Hawaii, and offering up Tahitian boats for the locals. It is time for the sport to move on. With the availability of these boats here in Hawaii, I believe that the 'Open Class' racing will explode, and more and more paddlers will get into these sleek machines. I'm not saying paddling should move away from the traditional stuff, but fiberglass boats are already the predominant choice of paddling crews, so why not bring the weight down and get more paddlers in the open class racing. Kona started it, and before long, all the long distance races will have a bigger and better open class. Last year Kona had Live Strong and Lanikai. Who know who else would jump in if boats were easier to get. I know I would....round up some guys and try these boats out. Had fun in NZ at the World Sprints in those boats, I bet the tahitian boats will be just as good.
Personally, I would love to paddle a boat that Shell Wa'a paddles in in Tahiti....its a cool looking machine. Bring that mold up.
Just something to think about......
Submitted by RatchetJaws on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 3:14pm
Rachet Jaws,
Very interesting thoughts you have there. Believe it or not, there is a new association that is just under the horizon. The Hawai'i Va'a Association has a mission very similar to what you are thinking.
HVA will be working with existing racing associations and canoe builders to create new unlimited V-1, V-3, and V-6 races throughout the year. This non-profit organization will be geared towards promoting paddling through the use of the V-1 canoe in Hawai'i. HVA races will be open to all paddlers and all types of boats (OC-1 or V-1). The eventual goal will be to send paddlers from Hawai'i to compete in races throughout the Pacific.
This association is in no way wanting to replace or offend the current state of paddling. The HVA just wishes to introduce something exciting for current and future paddlers in Hawai'i.
Our web site will be at www.hawaiivaa.org although as of right now we have nothing posted. Will update you all as things progress.
#1 Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:30pm
H.V.A Very Interesting.
Are you associated with Stephan from kainalu & Bora Bora
We would be keen to get the same happening here in Australia. I am hearing and seeing things at the moment which indicate that the Tahitian style of paddling is really starting to interest people around the world and rightly so.
Ihave been there 6 times now and am heading back in september I would reccomend a visit to anyone who loves the sport and the ocean.
#2 Mon, 06/02/2008 - 6:42pm
V-1 is definitely a challenge but when I raced a V1 in one of the California winter series this year it was by far the best race of the year for me and one of the most rewarding races ever for me. Definitely worth trying and I think that the HVA is a great idea, I wish I was in Hawaii so I could be a part of it.
#3 Mon, 06/02/2008 - 6:53pm
Kevy, there are a few things already happening in Australia. Talk to you later.
Cheers Rambo
#4 Mon, 06/02/2008 - 7:35pm
Aloha,
seems that the future is now......
.
i build OC-6 in the 400 pounds range......... but i like the idea of sampling an 80 pound lighter canoe.....
anybody out there knows what kine Lay up this V6 gets??
are they regular fiberglass?
are they in the 150kg (around 315 pounds)???
mahalo nui!!
#5 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 12:55pm
Yes...in NZ at the world sprints in 2006, canoes were 120 kg. In tahiti I believe they are 150 kg. Not sure about tahiti, but quite certain about NZ. Fiberglass layup.
#6 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:04pm
120kg!!!! i couldnt imagine!!!
#7 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:14pm
i'd be willing to bet if a builder put their mind to it, a usable 200 pound V-6 hull would be possible. (91 kg)
#8 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 2:14pm
Didn't Karel build a 200 lb carbon Mirage?
#9 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 2:21pm
yes all around....
Karel did build one. I believe he had an ad in Paddler magazine showing four women each opposite each other on the iako's, lifting a Mirage.
In NZ, after a practice run on the course, we paddled in, stepped out of the boat on to the floating dock and walk away. Two volunteers that were working the dock that day walk over, grab the canoe by the iako's, lift it and put it on the dock. When I saw that, I walked up and asked them how heavy the boat was...the guy said 120 kg.
#10 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 2:31pm
Clipper canoes in Canada makes a super-light 4-man. Don't know the exact weight but two or three people can handle it easily.
#11 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 2:47pm
well then maybe people should shoot for something even lighter.
if you could make a 144 pound boat, then each paddler would only have to push 24 pounds. everyone in the crew would just have to move the same amount of weight as a one man...
SWEET
#12 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 2:49pm
The 400 pound minimum weight has to done away with. A 200 pound canoe might be too expensive or too fragile, but 300 pounds is currently doable without costing more or sacrificing reliability.
We should all back Hawai'i Va'a Association in any way that we can.
#13 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 4:10pm
How much faster is possible? The skis were averaging 5:40something in the Epic race, and the top oc1s are 6:20something. Shell averaged 6:40s-what are the limits? Even scrubs like us occasionally reach boat speeds of 6:15 for a few strokes here and there. I'd think that the top theoretical oc-6 speeds might be comparable to those of the surfskiers and certainly the oc1s in downhill conditions. It would be nice to see the Hoe released from these archaic OHCRA design/weight rules.
#14 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 4:47pm
Thanks for the words of support.
Right now we are in the process of figuring out what HVA's event calender will look like for the coming year. We actually have a few V-1 canoes available, and hope to start conducting clinics in Hawaii to get people's interest piqued. Once this happens we hope to take a more active role in promoting racing.
Now here is the blatant solicitation for help. Feel free to flame me on this. As a non profit just starting out, we are actively looking for any person or business who is willing to contribute to HVA. Any contribution will be used strictly for the promotion of paddling in Hawaii and nothing else. We hope to make our clinics a fun family oriented day at the beach with refreshments, guest speakers, and fun races. This would be a great chance for any business to create publicity for themselves. Plus they would be getting in at ground level to support this new development in Hawai'i's state sport.
Please PM me if any of you have ideas for sponsors. If you feel this is out of bounds for this forum let me know and this post will be deleted.
#15 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 5:46pm
120 Kg is the lower weight of NZ Mahimahi waka, having a solid polyester e
glass laminate with a durable gelcoat skin. A laminate that has proven to
last for years lying on the beach between use.
Reducing the laminate density with a foam core would stiffen the structure
considerably if the weight remained the same, or the stiffness could match
that of the solid laminate if weight is reduced to say 100 Kg.
Either way (120 or 100 Kg with pvc core) the outer skin would be thinner
than the existing laminate, so would just suffer from wear and tear much
quicker.
Substituting carbon for glass , along with epoxy for polyester, would just
shorten the lifespan even more (assuming normal use) because the outer skin
becomes even thinner while providing same stiffness (assuming that it is
pointless to build the carbon structure stiffer than necessary, which the
grp provides).
While all waka weigh the same , the competition can be fierce, while the
'culture and sexiness' maintain the same Polynesian tone that makes
outrigger canoe what it is.
#16 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 5:54pm
Mahimahi waka: I really like the names of these NZ boats.
#17 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 6:45pm
Many V6s in Tahiti weight 120kg. They could technicaly be made lighter. But the rules of the Tahitian Va'a Federation say that the minimum weight for a race is 150kg with no more than 30kg ballast added... so if someone was to build a V6 lighter than 120kg, this V6 would not be allowed to race...
#18 Tue, 06/03/2008 - 11:07pm
iaorana Hiro C,
could you be so kind to share a regular fiberglass lay up to be on 120kg??? i build OC-6 in 180kg and to shave 60kg without getting a weaker hull is a challenge, i am aware that with state of the art hight tech it can be done for sure, but is there a way to make it just with reg fiberglass??
your help is well apreciated!
Mariano.
#19 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 4:27am
You'll find that you will get a weaker canoe. The Mahi Mahi has far less stiffness to the 180kg canoes. But it does not have to perform in large ocean swells on a regular bases either. Hey, they are still tough enough, but they do flex alot more than a Mirage/Bradley. But yes, four guys on the iakos is a nice way to carry your canoe. And why drag extra weight around if you don't have to.
#20 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 2:49pm
At the time, no tahitian made V6 is really high-tech. Some V1s are vacuum-bagged pre-preg carbon, but V6s are made with regular fiberglass and/or wood.
Mariano, I am not a naval architect or a Va'a shaper, but don't forget that they are not open-hull like OC6, V6s have a semi-closed deck, and that deck add rigidity to the whole boat. Also there are some "pieces of wood" connecting both side of the hull and also some "walls" under the seats. (sorry but my english has some limits).
#21 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 3:51pm
The Mahimahi is designed by Maui Kjeldsen so Hawaii has access to such craft.
#22 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 4:57pm
much mahalos Hiro C (i dont know how to say thanks in Tahitian) i knew the fact that the closed cockpit on each paddler could be a factor in structure, favoring less material and resulting a lighter hull. however i own a hawaiian style mold, and the flex of a lighter hull, the torsions while paddling in big swells doesn't confort my idea of safety.
i guees, those light oc-6 (hawaiian style) are carbon-epoxy, vacummbagged-state of the art........
o well........no budget for that.....we will keep dreaming......
Aloha!
#23 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 5:07pm
thanks = (ua) mauruuru (vau)
#24 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 5:42pm
hiro, thanks for the inside look at the V-6. i had always been curious how they were put together. it is awesome they can be put together at 120kg with wood/epoxy/glass. you guys have some great boat builders down there.
is the blue thing on the left for holding a cooler? pretty cool...
#25 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 8:07pm
Yes, I broke the bottle holder a few days before Hawaiki Nui... had no time to do a nice job so I just screwed the first piece of PVC I found. What a shame !
#26 Wed, 06/04/2008 - 9:58pm
Thanks Hiro
Cool picture. We talk about building a OC6 like that out of cedar we have lots up here.
#27 Thu, 06/05/2008 - 6:23am
Aloha Mulus,
would that Cedar Oc-6 be a one piece kind? like Hawaiians Koa canoes?
iam from Argentina, and we do have Cedar in those dimensions, if you do it, i will be following your lead, i also dream on having a Wooden oc-6.......
mahalo for your Kokua.
Mariano.
#28 Thu, 06/05/2008 - 6:33am
Did you guys know that one of the partners/owners/founders of Kamanu Composites is a Certified Composites Technician?
I heard that those guys are frickin' BADASS.
#29 Thu, 06/05/2008 - 9:55am
How about a 90kg or 197lb tahitian style 6man canoe. Sounds impossible but I actually raced in it, nuts it gets up and goes instantly. Sweet!!!
#30 Tue, 06/10/2008 - 7:29pm
There is a Tahitian style cedar strip canoe on the Big Island. Hull weight around 200lbs. Some people have seen it around at some of the regattas and distance races. It was built last year. There are a few others on the Big Island that were built in the last few years.
#31 Wed, 06/11/2008 - 7:18am
There was a sub 200 pound canoe on the beach at last year's Queen Lili'uokalani race. It was a beauty. I can't believe that some people are resistant to canoes like this. They are the future of our sport.
#32 Wed, 06/11/2008 - 9:46am
Hiro
In your photo album titled "Diaporama Hawaiki Nui" there is the pic of canoe #354. It has a huge hump on the bow deck. What is the purpose of the hump?
#33 Wed, 06/11/2008 - 10:49am
Silly question, carry water of course!
#34 Wed, 06/11/2008 - 12:19pm
200 lbs... that's my weight !
aqua, the purpose of this HUGE hump is to make the canoe very sensitive to the wind coming from the side and thus make it very difficult for the steerer to do is part...
We rented this canoe and if it had been ours, I woul have used a saw to get rid of at least half of the height...
#35 Wed, 06/11/2008 - 11:46pm
Ha!!!......I can only imagine. Is it traditional? I notice many of the Tahitian canoes have such a hump. I actually kinda like the way it looks, but it does seem a bit over the top. Maybe, you can take a que from poo and store a huge hydration pack in there and run hoses to the crew.
#36 Thu, 06/12/2008 - 6:35am
Actually goto, there are 2 Certified Composite Technicians at kamanu composites.
#37 Thu, 06/12/2008 - 9:26am
In fact, the bow is so short that even with this high volume, it is sometimes completely under water when surfing big waves... Reducing the volume of this would certainly not be very clever !
#38 Thu, 06/12/2008 - 7:53pm
What about lengthening the bow?
#39 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 7:54am
Weighing in on the "sub 200lb" canoe category...Bill Rosehill in Kailua Kona, Big Island, Hawaii has designed and built many different hull types for V6 which he declares are faster than anything currently on the water. Last year he and some Tahitian canoe craftsmans created a 197lb cedar strip canoe and a second cedar strip and poplar 6man that was not much heavier.
I had the privilige to steer the 197lb for Lili'oukalani and let me tell you that canoe did fly!! Best thing to come off a mold in a long, long time. And the 17mile race was done in a flash! And it only took 2 people to lift onto the trailer :)
Bill currently has just completed 2 fibreglass hulls off a mold design that is different than anything currently on the market. These canoes were done to meet Moloka'i specs. Once again the claim is being made that they will be faster than anything you have paddled, in any water conditions. I am not one to doubt this! And he welcomes anyone to come check out his hulls themselves if in Kona for a visit.
He probably would leap at the chance to be involved in designing new lighter glass canoes as well and would support the addition of new classification divisions to the race calender.
Bill can be contacted at konakanu@hotmail.com and would love to hear from anyone to talk about canoe specs (or anything paddling related).
I just look forward to returning to Kona each year to paddle his dream canoes... So fast!!!
#40 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 12:52pm
We need more like this... ^
#41 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 1:10pm
goto what does ^ stand for? Is that some secret sign for a secret canoe or something?
Looks like I have to save my money for ^. Even thought I don't know what ^ means.
#42 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 1:42pm
Yeah poops, I was speaking directly at you. In the future anyone who even ATTEMPTS to paddle without ^ is going to be SO JUNK, it's literally unimaginable. And just to keep your mind working, I've got a prototype ∞ on the horizon... It's gonna blow your mind.
#43 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 2:01pm
this ^ looks kinda like an upside down chine...is that where the new technology is heading goto?
#44 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 3:23pm
Any mention of chines is banned.
#45 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 4:51pm
Has anone ever tried to build a canoe with channels or concaves, as on surfboards, in order to make it surf better/faster ? Would it works at canoes speed ?
#46 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 6:47pm
Sorry Jibofo, looks like a new Hypr design then?
#47 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 8:00pm
hypr canoes are all antiques now
#48 Fri, 06/13/2008 - 9:05pm
" Certified Composite Technicians"
What does that mean?
#49 Sat, 06/14/2008 - 4:27am
Nobody really knows, but apparently it's pretty frickin' AWESOME.
#50 Sat, 06/14/2008 - 5:31am
Hiro, i know nothing of canoes with concaves or channels. but there are a lot of stand up paddle boards out there that are used for downwind surfing runs that have pretty huge channels.
#51 Sat, 06/14/2008 - 6:14pm
†Certified Composite Techniciansâ€
What does that mean?
Paddleeatsleep, check out this link:
http://www.sme.org/cgi-bin/certhtml.pl?/cert/certification.html&&&SME&
#52 Sun, 06/15/2008 - 6:23am
aquafiend65: http://certification.acmanet.org/certification/
It appears to mean that they adhere to generally accepted rules of the composites industry and that they are certified in the general knowledge, safety and applications of said industry.
#53 Mon, 06/16/2008 - 1:45pm
http://certification.acmanet.org/certification/CCT/ACMA_CCT.asp
Looks like you need a year of experience, and have to take a test and pay $250 dollars. Might be something worth pursuing this summer considering I could become one of two Certified Composite Technicians on the West Coast then. If that doesn't make people wanna pay me to fix their boat than I don't know what will.
#54 Mon, 06/16/2008 - 5:45pm
i might have to get my certification and move up there too.
#55 Mon, 06/16/2008 - 9:47pm