I have a Fusion and it has high sides...the idea is that your hips fit nicely between these side of the cockpit and you have responsive ama control since you are "connected" to the boat and not just leaning on mushy foam to control the boat. My hips are too wide and my hip bones butt right up against the sides. Kind of like wearing shoes that are too small and narrow, ok for a bit but excruciating after 2-3 hours. I thought I would have a get a new boat but I need the highest vol boat I can find because of my weight, AND the fusion is the widest one I have seen. So I have to have the boat modified to fit. I noticed that older kaimanas and tigers canoes for example have what looks like a notch cut out of the side where the seat fits in. This looks like it would be very comfortable but you would lose the responsiveness to the ama?? Does that even matter for a novice paddler in the southern california flat water? So my options seem to be notch out the sides or flair out the cockpit so that my hips fit the boat and work on shaping a new seat. Appreciative of any suggestions.
Many thanks, Shawn.
Submitted by Shawn Michael on Sun, 07/06/2008 - 9:46pm
A wise man once said, "It's not the canoe that fits the paddler it's the paddler that fits the canoe." Nah just joking. But as a friendly suggestion maybe it should move you to lose some around the sides rather than paying money to modify your canoe. Spend the time and effort modifying yourself. Nothing personal by the way.
#1 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 10:38pm
hip......BONE
#2 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 10:40pm
Oh my bad. Never read um good. Like I said nothing personal eh.
#3 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 11:07pm
None taken. Before the canoe gets cut just want to check with the board. I dont have a great build for sitting in a canoe (38inch waist 52inch chest) but damn it I love to paddle!
I was hoping someone could comment on canoes old kaimans, tiger, etc that look to have notches in the sides and if that might be a solution.
Thanks yall.
#4 Sun, 07/06/2008 - 11:58pm
Shawn,
So basically you want to cut the side gunnels on the Fusion to make it less painful on your hipbone, right?
Several other OC-1's don't have the high sides enclosing their foam seats and doesn't impact the responsiveness of the ama. It may take some time for you getting use to it (if or when you get it done) since you were use to how it is now. If you think about it and take a look at the Stingray2 from OC, you'll notice it doesn't have the high gunnel sides of the cockpit that the Fuze/Fusion/Zephyr has and the foam seat sits just as high (if not higher).
Your best bet would be to find someone with a Kaimana or other OC-1 that has what you are planning to try how it feels or would feel without it.
I'm sure the modification on your Fusion is going to cost quite a bit to get done professionally.
#5 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 1:24am
If the inside of the seat well is bevelled at an angle you simply have to get your hips up higher and the seat well gets more spacious, albeit with a small loss of control .
Get a sheet (say 10mm)of medium Density eva or pe foam approx 45kg/m3 , place some under the current seat and some on the sides to eliminate slop, if it solves your problem glue it in place and problem solved
#6 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 2:18am
Latman's idea sounds good too with adding more height to raise the current seat mold up (and his hips) above the gunnels higher than what he has already done in another thread.
Another idea would to get a new seat blank and instead of having them grind into it, have them add another 2-3 inch thick piece on top or on the bottom. Then carve/grind out the seat pocket to fit.
Either of these ways will raise him above the confining high gunnels that are hurting his hipbones. It will give him a different feel to it being a few inches higher than before. Plus he won't need to modify the canoe which would cost more than a new modified seat.
#7 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 3:44am
I talked to Jr once and ordered a new seat and they are all about customizing the seat to you for sure. Call them up and talk to them. Its kinda cool when you call up and the guy with the most knowledge answers the phone. I had a deeper seat cut but anyway you cut it its gonna be way cheaper to try than cutting your boat. Just explain exactly what your deal is and youll probably know before you get off the phone if the seat can be left high enough.
#8 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 7:21am
Thanks for the ideas. Hey Latman I did what you suggested and it did solve the problem, but I had to add 1.5 inches of foam and I was too high, I think I could get the same feel by notching out the sides. I appreciate the help. I am going to get the canoe fixed this weekend and it will be interesting too see what happens!
#9 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 10:07am
Shawn Michael,
I wouldn't really expect anyone on here to just go ahead and do or not do something just because some poster on the internet said so - but DON'T get your Fusion cut. There's a couple of options that it sounds like you haven't tried yet, including talking to the guys who make 'em. Also, from some of your other posts, it sounds like you're not completely sure that you're not going to end up with a different boat yet, (if I lived any closer, I'd get you a Kaimana to try, like, today.) Once you make those modifications to your Fusion, I guarantee you, you're not going to get much of your money back once you sell it. At least wait until you know you'll have that OC boat for a while before notching those gunwales out.
...that's what I'd do anyway. Just some advice.
#10 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 11:33am
Cutting it will be way expensive and youll have a canoe that you will only be able to sell to someone with crazy wide hip bones. Ask the other guys but I doubt you can just "cut" the sides. I think it would be major work maybe because the seam runs right were you want to cut.
#11 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 3:39pm
Thanks. I cant be the only one with this problem...Ive seen some big dudes on outriggers. Many thanks for the advice. When I get this seat fixed I am going to be on the fast track to some 20 mile days (I hope) My brother in law just did the ironman in France (with pretty minimal training) so I feel like I could put out a little more
I
#12 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 4:46pm
I've seen quite a few big guys on OC-1's too, but they don't have a Fusion/Zephyr/Fuze either as far as I know. They all have Vantages, Pahoa's, Kaimana's Scorpious or other boats without an enclosed cockpit or sit higher on them that do.
There was this one guy was so wide that he was literally sitting on the gunnels/gunwales of his OC-1 and his butt cheeks had overhang. This guy had what looked like an older Outrigger Connection Stingray OC1 or could have been an older OC Viper.
Even a few wide bottom women that paddle at the OC-6 Club that own/paddle their OC-1's where I go have no problems on their boats when they are wider than their seat. This is for both the OC-6 and OC-1. Same goes for the really big/wide OC-6 guys as well.
Having the cockpit sides cutout on it would cut its resale value in half of what another Fusion (or similar boat) of equal age/usage/condition would go for.
#13 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 5:18pm
Those boats you listed are ones of interest to me, but I think the fusion is the biggest so I am going to go with it and get the seating area to fit. I think unless you have friends who are knowledgeable ones first canoe is going to be a bit of a shot in the dark and it takes time to figure out what the hell is going on and to have enough experience to evaluate what you like. I think you really get a feeling of the comfort of a certain canoe after 2 hours on the water when things start to hurt. When I first got on the canoe 5 months ago I could hardly paddle 200meters. Now it is the pain of sitting that is holding me back from making progress so I have to find the best solution.
The visual of the guy with sitting on the gunwales with his butt cheeks hanging over cracked my first smile since I put down our cat this morning.
#14 Mon, 07/07/2008 - 6:51pm
"Having the cockpit sides cutout on it would cut its resale value in half of what another Fusion"
E7M, thats totally untrue. If done right it will be of equal value to a "normal" canoe, or it will be of greater value for another "big" guy who needs a wider boat......if its done right.
#15 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 1:03pm
Problem is finding the right butt for that awkward seat. Average Joe wants a used fusion, he can just go find a regular one. Why would someone want the only fusion with no sides when they can get as many regular ones as they want? Sure it will be worth all the dough to Shawns hip bone twin but how many people with hip bones that wide?
Shawn - I hope this works for you but you will have a difficult time reselling your canoe when the time comes, thats just sales. You are not modifying your canoe for the better to anyone else but you. Who knows, maybe itll last you for 5 to 10 years and it wont matter but as fast as canoes are changing and as obsessed as you are with paddling like I am, youll be onto another canoe soon enough.
#16 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 1:16pm
Shawn, you're on the right track with the Fusion or Stingray for a guy your size. If you can pad out the bottom of the foam seat to give you the height clearance you need for the hips then go that way first rather than cut the canoe, the instability change could be offset by lengthening the iako's (maybe 2 inches).
Being higher is not necessarily a bad thing, some paddlers feel they can "get over the paddle" more, and use the body better to drive the stroke. Most "big" paddlers i know paddle mostly bolt upright and get their power from shoulders back and abs. Use your long reach and extra height to your advantage and drive deep as soon as you feel you have a good bite on the water with the blade, crunch those abs and pull up to the point where you entered the paddle. Rotate if you can, to engage the upper bodies full range of motion, but not a lot of big men do this or find it easy to do, depends on your individual flexibility.
You obviously have the size to generate good power, work on endurance and technique for the best results, there is much to gain here.
Cheers Rambo
#17 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 2:01pm
Arrrgh!.....I can't.....hold.....my......tongue.....any.....longer!!!
Im no canoe builder but I would've thought that if you're that big, you dont go cutting your canoe in the middle where you sit!.....
Shawn,
With all due respect, all this ama control talk is really premature for such a new paddler........5 months!!!.......Mate, I know your enthusiasm.........Ama control is something you will develop on ANY waka over time!....I started at 37 yrs old and 110kg, now 40 and around 95kg........brother, you & I arent going to be as balanced as the front runners.......but I guarantee you, you are having as much fun and kicking potentially more personal goals.......your canoe doesnt deserve this treatment......you could be paddling whilst its in the workshop!
C'mon guys, Shawn has asked for some advice.....sorry if I'm speaking out of turn folks.......Yes, its his canoe and money....but lets tell him like it is.......
Do what lats or jpi92109 said......modify the seat
Mick
#18 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 3:51pm
Shawn, yet another person saying 'DON'T DO IT!'
We've got a guy in out club who is 112kg (245lb) and he paddles a Pahoa, no problems so this canoe is a good one for the larger paddler. See if you can try one. Then modify your seat as suggested by other posters. If it doesn't work and you're OK on another canoe, then I'd suggest you sell your Fusion (as is) to get your money back and buy a canoe that's comfortable rather than having major surgery on a canoe that will have a detrimental effect on it's re-sale value.
Cheers.
#19 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 4:51pm
I know a guy 250+, did Molo on a Pahoa. Maybe you will have to cut your boat but my opinion is to try more with your seat first, try other boats 2nd, take away your canoes manhood 3rd.
#20 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 9:05pm
most of the points are salient but innacurate. We've become accustomed and satisfied with a few standard sized canoes.....essentialy, small, medium and large, and have somehow convinced ourselves thats the best we can have. Its like having the choice between 3 sizes of shoes. Can the entire population fit into small medium and large shoes? The idea of customizing a canoe is the next best thing to having a canoe made custom for yourself. One may cost $500 to $2000+, the other $20,000+. Until someone figures out a way to make custom Canoes for reasonable price, like custom surfboards, modifying a canoe is an absolute must. Who doesnt tweak or adjust thier canoe asap? The real problem with modifying and customizing is qualified/capable people are probably more rare than the actual canoe builders.
#21 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:38am
Right! The very same thought about universal supply of OC1's in 3 sizes,
just like shoes, has been on my mind as well.
If modification is going to 'destroy' the value of an OC1, the thing has
apparently assumed a quality of greater value than it's real worth.. But
lets face it, those factories in China are crapping new ones out quicker
than it takes to do even a small modification like removing a seat edge.
#22 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:46am
I really appreciate all the advice. I did talk to the Bartletts and the scorpious being 21'6 boat with an open sit on tip cockpit might be a good fit for me...I didnt realize the scorpious was such a big boat. Any red flags there?
Looking at race photos I see several big guys but they are on kaimana, tiger, scorpious etc. on mindys outriggercanoe.blogspot.com the Molokai to Oahu relay 08 the last guy shown is way bigger and more well padded. If losing fat would help I would do it but I am reasonably lean I just have heavy bones or something.
I love to cycle too and accept that I am going to suck at hills, etc and in a similar way sometimes the first bike is subject to some modifications and doesnt hit the bullseyes.
I see way the skilled boatbuilders can do with damaged racing shells and mods on boats and I think it would be pretty easy to get the fusion right but would make it valuable to a small few. Not a huge deal, paddling is the only thing I do for myself $$ wise so all things considered it is a lot cheaper than golfing at the club or, getting hammered every night or a lot of other things.
#23 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:22am
sss
#24 Sat, 04/02/2011 - 9:59am
wow....I didnt realize we had so many composite experts here. All those who say that "cutting" the canoe will decrease resale value, do you have the skills to tinker with the composite portion of your canoe? You say modify the foam seat, but those who are truly skilled with composites can modify and manipulate just as if they were working with foam. Thank God this isnt a medical site....It makes me cringe to think the kind of "expert" advice y'all might give.
#25 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 12:31pm
i smell a business opportunity here. imagine helpin' all t' people in t' world t' modify their boats for comfort. i can see t' doubloons rollin' in now....
(rubbing hands together)
#26 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 1:12pm
xxx
#27 Sat, 04/02/2011 - 9:59am
all's im sayin is, if done properly, a mod wont diminish a boats value.
jc9_0......dont be crazy! All people comfy on thier canoes??? Thats like sacrilege or something. Isnt left cheek numbness a mark of manhood?
#28 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:41pm
It's hard to imagine there being anyone itching to do repairs or small mods
on ultralight popout OC1's for profit alone. Hell! Sanding carbon composites
is the closes thing to working in a cloud of coal dust.. which is just what
fine particles of carbon is.
Working as a chimney sweep may event pay a comparable rate.
#29 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 3:14pm
cough, cough....I....cough......totally agree......cough!!
#30 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:02pm
Aquafiend - Im not the brightest guy around and dont know a damn thing about composites BUT it sounds like your saying that cutting the sides and actually moving the seam of the canoe would be a better idea than trying a $100 seat?? I dont think that it cannot be done by any means but your making it sound as easy as cutting the iakos.
You are apparently an expert and most here dont listen to you so whats wrong with throwing our 2 cents in when its asked for?? It is a good thing this isnt a medical site, people might wonder why there is so much canoe talk??
Shawn - Of all people who know what kind of info is on this site about canoes you of all people should know that you shouldnt try to make up your mind on a canoe based on purely numbers. Paddle them, try them out but by all means try something and tell us what you did soon!
#31 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:11pm
Thanks for the info about the OC-1 volume. I cant really tell by looking. I was told that I the length of the boat was really important and to keep my eye on 21'6 canoes. Since the Kaimana and pahoa are 20'10 and 20'9 I thought the scorpious might edge them out in volume. If I am wrong or if there is a boat I have overlooked I am all ears.
I think I would have to take the seat up another 1-1.5in to get the best comfort. When I added the first 1.25in of foam, I did feel I was in a better/stronger paddling position but sort of "mushy" on the sides when leaning...I imagine in a strong headwind you are not helping yourself either.
#32 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:24pm
I wish it was easier to demo different canoes. I did try. It would be ideal to have a few down at long beach and take em for the 2.5 mile spin and assuming they were all about same speed I could see what was most comfortable...5 months ago when I sat on an oc1 for the first time for 10 minutes I had no idea what it was supposed to feel like. As a result I got the wrong seat (my feet were laid out flat in front of me and if I brace my feet the would slip out of the footwell, and I got a 51 paddle where as now I use 53 and can actually get the paddle in the water without folding forward. The ama was set and marked for the average paddler. When I sat on it, the boat would sink down a lot more and I had to lean to the right to keep from tipping over. A total mess. Just having the ama rigged right was a huge help.I didnt understand what was wrong, but it just felt totally off and uncomfortalbe. Now, other than the hip bones, I am dialed in and it feels great.
#33 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:42pm
Dude - Ill take a picture of my seat on the canoe tomorrow. It comes to the top of the sides so a blank cut for you should be able to keep you above the sides without the squishy feeling of added foam. Your very likely to lose something with whichever way you go but cutting the sides will more than likely allow the foam to push out so you very well could have the same effect but with a much greater investment.
#34 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:43pm
good point, thanks.
#35 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:03pm
i also vote fer modifyin' th' seat. thar be so many things ye can try before makin' yer boat heavier. i say that on accoun' o' often times tinkerin' wi' yer hull will end up makin' 't heavier. but if ye do get an expert t' do th' work, maybe that won`t happen.
#36 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:04pm
There is also the Kai Wa'a Polaris which is 21' 6".
http://www.kaiwaa.com/outrigger-polaris.htm
Just saw another pretty big guy (220+lbs.) using one to catch waves on Tuesday.
Not sure if you'll be able to find one in Southern California to demo or buy as the dealer is in N California.
http://www.kaiwaa.com/contact-kaiwaa.htm
#37 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 1:55am
Shawn, why not extend the foam out over the edge of the canoe or get a seat made one piece that will extend over the edges to protect your hips from the hard surface. Memory serves me right, the top of the seat edge is almost flush with the canoe edge on a Fusion.
Rambo
#38 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 2:55am
Kai's canoes are 1/2" to 1" more narrow than Karels. Over 21' that is quite a bit of volume. The length may not be telling though. Its how the water is displaced. There could actually be more displacement in a shorter boat based upon the hull shape. Also consider the "reserve" buoyancy........are the sides above the waterline vertical or do they "flair" out? The reserve will result in more buoyancy for a bigger guy.....
In other words, the longer hull may actually have less buoyancy/floatation than the shorter hull with the reserve buoyancy. Make sense? As for adding to the seat to elevate.....That is feasible and may "fix" the hip bone problem, but it changes the center of gravity, which the builders have worked hard to design/mantain, and makes the canoe tippyer. If ama control is the desired end result, making the canoe tippyer may be the antithesis.......especially for a novice paddler. Im in agreement with trying other canoes and seeing if theres a better fit. If not make the boat fit you.....not you the boat. All this resale talk is BS. A properly done mod will be "invisible", will not increase weight significantly, and will probably add stiffness, resulting in speed, to the hull.
#39 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 5:28am
#40 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 5:41am
if you're thinking scorpius get used to the boat you have now. the waiting list is a long one. if you have questions about kai waa boats email kai. he responds to all his emails within a couple of days. for that matter email all the manufactures. they'll give you the take on their products and from their responses you can make a better choice of which boat.
if youre looking for a kai waa boat the polaris would be a nother one to consider over the scorpius. i have both boats and the bouyancy of the polaris is much greater than the scorpius. same size but two completely different boats. i kept the polaris because it is great when the ocean gnarly. both are forever boats.
#41 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 6:52am
Thanks I thought somehow though hyper made the polaris and then it died, but that might be better.
Scorpius shipment is supposed to land in so cal in august but there is some doubt about that.
Great help with my decisions, thanks.
#42 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 10:57am
Rambo, thank you for replies too. That will fix the problem, but the sides are really high so we are talking 3 inches of extra foam. I spent so much of my life being totally broke having to rig everything and now that I am a little older and have saved some $ want to get it right...I am dorky enough without my butt pad! Polaris might be another good one, I will email them and see if they agree.
Thanks for the info!
Shawn
#43 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 11:05am
You're welcome Shawn, with hips that size, please don't get any aspirations to stroke an OC6 ... the last wanna-be 6' 5'" 250LB stroke monster i paddled with, turned up early to training one nite and cut the seat through the middle, spread the gunnels 2" with a prop, added 2" insert into the cut seat and recovered the seat with foam. .... His Goolies are still hanging in the club house trophy cabinet.
Yep he was a carpenter ... obviously they don't teach Hydrostatics at Carpentry School...!!!
Cheers Rambo
#44 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 12:00pm
Hypr does/did make a Hokule'a (Polaris) which is 21' 6", a foot longer than the Vantage at 20' 6" and 9" longer than the Pahoa at 20' 9" that they make also.
In regards to the 21' 6" boats being the ones to look at, remember the Zephyr is that length also, but it has less reserve bouyancy in the rear than the Fusion you have now. Plus it's mentioned to be for people weighing around 170-200 lbs. You'd have the same high sides problem you have with the Fusion now, but worse since the Zephyr is 1/2" narrower.
The Kai Wa'a boats are narrower as mentioned, but they don't have the high sides that the OC boats have. So their seats can accomodate someone wider than the boat without sitting on the gunnels.
If making you sit higher makes the canoe tippier, would extending/getting a longer set of iakos keep the ama down more? I understand having shorter/closer iakos make it lighter/easier to lift.
#45 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 12:59pm
I sent Kai Bartlett an email with my height, weight and issues with the fusion and here is his reply and that I am in Southern California so the conditions are pretty FLAT relative to Hawaii.
"Shawn,
The Scorpius would do well, it is a seatwell like the Fusion but not as deep. The cockpit is lower so even with a higher seat you would still be quite low. The Polaris would probably fit you the best but won't be quite as fast as the Scorpius in the flat but she has proven herself in the past. The Polaris would be made here in Hawaii and the Scorpius can be made here or overseas.
Talk soon,
Kai"
The scorpius would be easier for me to get and since I am going to spend most of my paddling life in the flats, it sounds like that is what he is suggesting.
As to hawaii vs china? I would buy from hawaii if it were a matter of a few hundred dollars, for me time is much more of a issue.
Any thoughts?
Thanks yall for the help.
#46 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 10:39pm
The above poster suggested the polaris when the sea is gnarly, but 90% of my time is along the coast of Palos Verdes which is quite flat. I have done a good bit of sailing in Hawaii (as a passenger) and those seas are totally different. I am not clear if the lower volume means I would plow the front of the boat into the water if I actually caught a big wave (which could happen)
#47 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 10:58pm
Get the Scorpius. Polaris is a great boat, but like Kai says, Scorpius is pretty good in the flats, too. I noticed alot of the top finishers in Molos were on Scorpii, so it seems like it fits alot of different size people.
#48 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 1:29am
Email Kai back and see how long it would be to get a Hawaii-made Scorpius or if they have any (China-made) readily available to be shipped to you.
Most of the difference of the bouyancy from what I understand is in the tail that the volume is less for the Scorpius and Zephyr. This makes it a more straight forward ride whether in flat water or some bumps. For the Polaris and Fusion, they are great in the bigger bumps with the higher volume making them more responsive.
If you did catch some waves, any boat will plow a bit, but it's not like it's going to stay under forever since the boat is water tight. Lean back and enjoy the ride.
#49 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 1:37am