For you Hawaii guys out there. I want to start a thread about our upcoming State Regatta. I want to start this off and hope you guys out there jump in.
- To damn many events. Events should be boys and girls 12, 14, 16, 18. Mens and Womens Freshman, Soph., Jr., and Sr., Mens & Womens 40, 50, 60 and leave it at that.
- All the canoes should be the same. Let each island association run their koa canoes, but come states, put us all in Mirages, or Bradley's.
- Get rid of the classified and unclassified stuff. Just make it simple....a paddler can paddle in no more than two races period....provided they meet the age group criteria.
There you go....3 things that bug me. Please add to this thread.
Jaws Out.....
Submitted by RatchetJaws on Tue, 07/08/2008 - 3:28pm
Strongly disagree with the no koa suggestion.
My first states was in Hanalei and seeing all of those koa canoes lined up in Hanalei Bay is still one of my fondest memories of paddling. I felt like I had stepped back in time a few hundred years. Hawaii is the only place where you can still experience a race on the scale of the state regatta where everyone still uses traditional canoes and paddles. I'm all for innovation and breaking down the rules for most of the other races but keeping stricter rules for the states regatta always just felt right to me. Besides our club had one of the fastest koa canoes so I'm just a little biased.
#1 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 5:48pm
koa canoes are great i love them but i think the have to stop saying there keeping i tradition .. tradition went out a long time ago with new type blades and the new amas they have they want tradition use the old style amas and blades with no t-tops and big roiund blades LOL that would be a site to see..
as.. for a true state race it wont never be if there not using all the same boats like the world sprints.
I also think our koa boat is the fastest lol we finally got it legal took 20 years to do it but its done!!! and what a awesome boat it is.. state race here we come no more borrowing..
#2 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 6:47pm
No novice?? Dang...
And I, too, love paddling a koa.
#3 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 7:27pm
koa is where its at.
back to the rooots
#4 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 8:02pm
Hell, why we're at it lets just make States 2 events. One womens and one mens. And if we're getting rid of koas, then lets just get rid of the canoe all together. And the paddles. And the clothes.
#5 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 8:21pm
yeeeesssss... the clothes says he.
#6 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 9:02pm
Of all the races, I think the State championships should be the venue for the Koa! When you think about the journey each Koa canoe took to its final state, the state of Koa and the skillful hands of the canoe builders, the Kalai Wa'a, that took the time and care to make each Koa canoe - people like the late Wright Bowman, Wally Froiseth, Bobby Puakea, and many others who have worked hard to keep the tradition of canoe building alive, the reason why Spruce wood had to be used for the Hawai'i Loa, and then you realize its truly an honor to race in these canoes.
E ola koa
#7 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 9:43pm
Excerpt from Tommy Holmes, The Hawaiian Canoe:
"The koa canoe is a technological achievement by any standards, and uniquely Hawaiian as the only voyaging craft in all Polynesia to employ a solid, one-piece hull"
#8 Tue, 07/08/2008 - 9:22pm
Do you really think having everyone use bradleys is going to effect the outcome very much?
#9 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:53am
arrrrghhh....
jaymbes be grumpy this morning me thinks.
#10 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:50am
Good, Good....keep the discussion going....
If there is a way to make all the koa's exactly the same, then keep the koa's. But, until that can be done, I say go with the fiberglass boats and let island associations run their koa's. For smaller clubs, the cost to get one is way to high, cost to maintain the koa, cost to ship the koa, cost to house the koa, cost for insurance, cost to even get koa if you have to repair your boat, etc., etc. really makes it hard for them to get and maintain a koa. It becomes almost impossible for the smaller clubs to have a koa.
About a year ago Paddler Magazine did a short interview with Kai Barlett about paddling. If I remember correctly, in that article, even Kai said that it was time to make everything even at the state regatta. OK...so nuff said about the koa.
What about some of the other stuff?? Classification rule...the number of events?. Kala mai, but yes, keep the Novice races..we need to make sure others are welcome into the racing arena.
Jaws Out....
#11 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:21am
wait, wait, wait a minute. Kai Bartlett said we should get rid of the koa? Then by god why the hell are we still using them? Frick if Kai said we should get rid of them then we have to immediately.
I officially start the get rid of the koa movement. Our motto is "Kai said no, koas must go!"
I also propose, to ensure that koas are never used again, we exterminate all koa trees in Hawaii. get rid of the bastards.
Kai said no, koas must go!!
#12 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 9:45am
Rachet Jaws,
You have proposed a lot of changes. The OC Paddler Mafia and OC Paddler Forum Team Riders will have to meet secretly and get back to you about what direction we will take the state race and what changes will occur for paddling in Hawaii and the world.
Normally, there is one change to consider at a time and we can call or personal message everyone in the mafia and then one of us is picked at random to post and lay down the law. Normally people in the mafia will then post after wards things like- "He is right!" "I agree with ...." 'Goto is not only correct he is hot too....." etc.
Just wait and we will tell you what to do.
Kona J
#13 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:05am
Remember when they used to paddle in Koa canoes in Hawaii? Remember when all the clubs in Hawaii got to see each other on a different island each year? Remember when there was a Hawaiian canoe and a Hawaiian sport?
Remember when?
#14 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 12:41pm
arrrgghh.... the landlubbers want to ruin me sport.
scallywags be damned!
#15 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 1:04pm
.... "If there is a way to make all the koa’s exactly the same, then keep the koa’s. But, until that can be done, I say go with the fiberglass boats... "
The last shred of "tradition" left in this sport is the Koa canoe.
Not only are the beautiful and rare, they are a reminder that canoe racing was traditionaly about the canoe and its builder, not the individual or the team paddling it. The purpose of canoe racing was to see which builder could choose the perfect tree to make the most beautiful boat that would be sea worthy and have a hull design that would make it faster then any other boat. we should be humbled to paddle in these canoes that a these amazing craftsman have made before us. we cannot afford to forget about the koa canoes and their builders or we will be reduced to mind less mass produced, assembly lined, disposable junk. How long does your club keep its fiberglass boats? My club still has its first koa it ever had but its first fiberglass boat is long gone.
The truth is if we want to keep with tradition the race officials should lift the restrictions on boat designs so that our next generation of canoe builders can feel the freedom of creativity like our ancestors did and bring it back to canoe racing and boat building rather then its current stage of athlete recruiting and individual acheivment. Currently, racing the koa canoes IS the only "traditional" CANOE racing we do and should continue to do.
#16 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 1:59pm
kj,
I can't tell if by "." you mean, "Yes, I remember when we used to paddle koa canoes." or if you mean, "I'm for having a novice-senior-master-mixed-relay race at States."
Please to be clarify your post...
#17 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:02pm
Oh, THAT'S what you meant.
I agree.
#18 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:04pm
Ok, say we did take all the koas away and had everyone race in Mirages. Does that even our the playing field? I don't think so. There is a lot of tinkering you can do with the rigging and the such that would still make it an "uneven" playing field.
Believe me. Here's a good example. At the HHSAA Paddling state championships every year they have exact same boats rigged with the same ama and same length and same shims. This last year there were malias with bixlers rigged at 69-69.5. We still spend an hour at the coaches meeting fighting about how the boats were uneven. I just about committed seppuku.
#19 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:39pm
Whoa gang...please don't crucify me. I am a Hawaiian...period. I love the koa boats, no get me wrong. I'm just tossing stuff out that have been tossed out before. That is what these forums are for. Talk story, give your mana'o...hear what others got to say. Please don't brand me, just wanting to get some discussion going.
Jaws Out......
#20 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 2:55pm
now i see why they call you rachetjaws.
Any innovation anyone is trying to accomplish will now be lumped into this bs. Leave the state regatta alone.
I agree with kj's post completely.
#21 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 3:06pm
A koa has a life of it's own. Generations of paddlers paddle in a koa which is created by a great builder and that is what makes it special...the history. I can remember every koa I have ever paddled. That includes crossing the channel in the "Honaunau" with Honolulu Canoe Club, borrowing a koa wa'a at States from one of our generous fellow canoe clubs after our koa was rammed and broken by an official powerboat (Lokahi Canoe Club's "Ka I'o"), and most recently the glorious "Tarita" at Hui Lanakila. Not only is "Tarita" the best wa'a but the boat builder brothers, Leighton and Les Look, that brought her to life are legendary. I think of the Look brothers every time I am lucky enough to paddle "Tarita."
Paddling a koa wa'a is a priveldge and States wouldn't be States without those historic living legends on the water.
#22 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 3:13pm
And by the way...what is up with the Pirate Jc9? When did that happen? Hilarious.
#23 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 3:18pm
hey nem0...as I said earlier, just tossing stuff out. State regatta needs fixing and thought the paddling community had some ideas on how to make it better. I tossed out a few and thought others had some other ideas. I guess not.....
nothing personal, just seeing if others out there had mana'o to share about the State regatta, that's all.
Jaws out....
#24 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 3:56pm
Hiki no Ratchet Jaws. Ideas are what we need.
Our sport does keep changing, and it's the people in it who help direct the change.
The HCRA State Championships are in effect governed by the club paddlers in Hawaii.
Each club has a member who represents them at the HCRA annual meeting held each year in December. At the 2007 meeting held on Oahu, there were, I believe, 68 clubs represented. Those members voted on the proposed changes in the race rules and by laws for 2008. The race rules are the rules in place for the state championships.
About mid October, usually right after Molokai Hoe, the HCRA race rules committee listens to proposed changes to the race rules and by laws. The proposals come from any club in the HCRA who wants to submit them through their association representative to the HCRA. The proposals are then reviewed by the race rules committee and as a committee they determine which proposals will be voted on at the annual meeting.
This process has been used for many years, and it is the members of the HCRA, not the board, or the officials, who make the rules for our state championships. If you have ideas, get them to someone who can present them to the HCRA.
Their pepeiao and mana`o are open.
#25 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 4:45pm
As a paddler, coach, and club representative I have been involved in the sport for over 40 years. We have grown from the original HCRA that governed everything for all Islands to now having associations on almost every Island. The sport has grown mostly for the better, but the regatta format is broken. What Mike says is very true about rules etc., but in the old days we didn't have clubs in A AA AAA divisions etc. There is now a disincentive to growth for the small clubs that sometimes chose to remain small. Therefore there is a subjective outlook on rules whether it comes from the small or larger clubs. Perhaps voting should be pro-rated based upon how many crews each club fields for a season, which would mean 1 vote for A 2 for AA 3 for AAA etc. That would make sense, as the larger clube have more people impacted by rules than the smaller clubs.
More later on divisions, eligibility, and races to eliminate with reasons as to why.
Mahalo
#26 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 6:58pm
i too love th' koa canoes, they be indeed beautiful. but th' ortin' ta be unlimited koa canoes. how cool would 't be t' be seein' sea dogs an' land lubbers`s own special designs?
#27 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 7:17pm
To Pirate Jc9:
WHAT!?
#28 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 7:24pm
i spake th' state race ortin' ta be havin' unlimited koa canoes. 't would be a beautiful sight!
#29 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 7:58pm
What's "ortin"? Someone get me a dictionary! he he he
#30 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 8:24pm
I'm not sure of the appropriate words to respond to that because I see small to large canoe clubs with Koa canoe(s). I believe clubs don't get Koa because they can "afford it" but because it has some spiritual meaning and connection to the club. It goes deeper than just the pocket book. I've seen canoe clubs find innovative as well as conventional methods of raising funds to purchase and maintain koa canoes. If not, they establish relationships with other clubs to assist where they lack the ability to obtain one.
If you know of a specific club thats interested in getting a koa but don't have the means or know how, send me a private email as to what they have done thus far in terms of planning, budget etc., and we can go from there.
#31 Wed, 07/09/2008 - 10:15pm
mikala, you need not a dictionary, you need a pirate dictionary.
#32 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 8:05am
ortin' = ought
very good poopoo, a sea dog dictionary be needed.
#33 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 9:03am
jaws, i see where your going and support, but its like walking on ice, you have to pick your battles. The state regatta is a touchy subject and bringing up the koa's gets personal. Why not address the regatta system as whole rather then the state regatta?
#34 Thu, 07/10/2008 - 12:18pm
Keep the koa canoe. It's part of the beauty and culture of the sport.It allows clubs and craftsmen to create their own shape as long as it stays within the specs. BUT, I do think the specs have to be reworked as we are not getting the fastest possible canoes. In the past, the numbers coming off of the Malia had set the standard. I think we, the people who pay to race, should take a look at addressing other specification numbers in regard to the canoe as well as reducing the number of events in the state race. Take out open 4, master mix ,sophmore,junior, 13's, etc...Have ALL asociations adopt the SAME rules that apply as do states. Just my mana'o
#35 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 7:30am
mumbojumbo
Rather then cut out certain races perhaps ALL the distances should just be either 1/4 mile or 1/2mile - all pretty much sprints for all age groups. In and out-PAU! Paddlers that want to paddle longer distances have all kinds of pre season and post season shorter distance and longer distance races that they can compete in. Its when we have to start waiting for the adults to do their 1 miles and then 1 1/2 miles etc. it gets to be a real pain. 1/2miles are fun to watch, great to paddle and it accommodates the majority without having to cut anyone out. I think the multiple events were created because so many clubs have over 100 members to accommodate and the different events help them to do that.
#36 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 10:18am
good idea mumbo.
#37 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 1:13pm
Good news folks. I am happy to report that I went hiking this morning and was able to chop down 14 koa saplings. They now will never grow big enough to be a koa boat in the states regatta. Please PM me your thank yous.
#38 Fri, 07/11/2008 - 1:25pm
Poopoo, bring those saplings tomorrow and we can carve them into little koa canoe effigies, make a big bonfire with them, and all rejoice in what you've done for the sport.
I like the 1/4 mi. and 1/2 mi. idea, too. That's essentially what ended up happening at Nanakuli, right?
#39 Sat, 07/12/2008 - 12:41pm
The top notch paddlers who are used to winning their divisions would like all canoes to be identical so they can prove they are the best. If they loose in the State race, where no two koa canoes are of the same design, they would claim the winning crew had a faster canoe. Nothing wrong with that......that's the nature of Hawaiian outrigger canoe construction......freedom to build what one feels will serve its intended function....ie., like a fishing canoe.
Due to the lack of koa logs, we should be making strip plank koa canoes. This would preserve the koa resource and reduce the cost of a new koa canoe. After all, a good majority of koa canoes in the State are more "strip" (with all the patches) than originally hewn from a single koa log. Once again, if Kamehameha were alive today, coupled with the lack of koa logs, yet the availability of dimensional koa lumber, I'd say he'd be making himself koa strip canoes.
In this light, if a builder can build a servicable, competitive koa racing strip canoe, be it HCRA legal or other, he has proven his ability as a Kalai Waa regardless of venue while furthering culture and tradition.
With regard to changing rules within HCRA......forget it....been there, done that. There's no convincing those who don't want to be convinced of change. They are inflexible. If experience counts for anything........do your own thing b/c in your heart, it's the right thing to do.
#40 Sun, 07/13/2008 - 10:07am
Bill, what we could learn from you if we would only listen.
#41 Sun, 07/13/2008 - 9:52pm
Bill, do you know these canoes??
The photos were taken in front of the King Kam' Hotel in Kona.
.
Because i love youse'all, i've included the extra large sizes below. These are my favourite canoe photos.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1421/536634778_ee86e8e44c_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1053/536634762_a8b5b9ffd8_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1394/536634758_40038740b4_o.jpg
Cheers Rambo
#42 Sun, 07/13/2008 - 11:46pm
nem0, thank you.
Rambo, the one on the right is my 197# Cedar/Poplar that was the subject of the 'Tahitian Design Canoes' thread a few weeks ago.
The other is the 305# Poplar canoe we made for Waikoloa Canoe Club at the same time.
More are planned using other woods. Wouldn't a koa one be nice!
Were you visiting when you took these photos, Rambo?
#43 Mon, 07/14/2008 - 6:30am