I'm new here and to OC1 paddling. I went to http://www.outriggercanoe.blogspot.com/ but cannot seem to view the videos posted there by Mindy esp the one titled
"Johnny Puakea and Danny Ching
Paddling Clinic at the Kamanu Factory
"Breaking Your Arms"
My OC paddle friend advises me to keep the upper arm straight, though he didn't seem to do so himself & I have seen a whole range of configurations for the both arms on youtube, etc. What's on that video?
During Monday's (7/14) session on the water, I produced more power on the left side than on the right (GPS use) & using the same technique with the blade on the right felt muscles I didn't think I had. Even a slower cadence didn't seem to detract from the speed once I had a good catch. Interestingly, if I permitted the blade to move away from the hull up to 10", I had as much or more power and it felt more natural to do so with my lower arm pretty much straight. On some strokes, I might even sneak forward on my seat a bit with mostly upright posture to get a little more stroke length and slide back as the blade reached the middle of its pull phase of the stroke. Is this an inefficient variation of "proper" OC1 paddling technique? does the blade need to stay close to the hull throughout the the pull phase?
Another event with my new (to me) boat included the ama leaving the water while stroking on the right. I didn't huli, but found it interesting. Thanks in advance for comments.
Submitted by kayak4water on Wed, 07/16/2008 - 10:23am
As far as varying the distance that your paddle is from the side of your boat - stop it. (Unless you're paddling va'a, but it doesn't sound like it...)
Catch, pull and release in a line that is parallel to the side of your one-man. If you are pulling your boat even a little bit diagonally, you'll end up side-loading your rudder and the draft of your boat = more drag/less speed.
#1 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 11:58am
Another thing that you should be aware of is that "typically" the faster side tends to be the RIGHT side. This makes sense if you think about the fact that inevitably a little more weight is put on your ama when you are paddling on the left and conversely a little less weight is put on the ama when you are paddling on your right (lightening up the ama). More weight means more wetted surface. Less weight, less wetted surface. The less wetted surface, the less drag (there are other factors that affect wetted surface than just the side you are paddling).
If you are seeing that you are faster on your left than on your right the explanation could be a couple of things, but I have found that it tends to be directly correlated to your comfort and confidence when you are paddling on your right side versus your left.
When ALL things are considered though, IF you are centered and know your boat and have the confidence and comfort with that boat, you SHOULD be pretty even on both sides (maybe only a fraction faster on the right). At least, that's what everybody seems to be saying...
#2 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 12:29pm
LOL.... thats a classic statement.
Your technique needs to develop, so straight arms now will set you up for a better stroke that you can build on. In other words, you might see advanced paddler with a relaxed elbow, but you should keep yours straight for first year or so, bad habits will develop if you start breaking your arms.
ie: If you keep your top arm straight you will be forced to reach with your body (core) not your arms. Once you get the muscles developed and muscle memory, then you will find other issues, keep tackling and getting better.
#3 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 1:53pm
You must have quick time to be able to view my video's. You can download it at apple.com/quicktime or try this web address
http://blip.tv/file/940214
Mindy
#4 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 7:06pm
Between the videos on mindy's blog and the archives here there is a tremendous amount covered, but I learn new stuff every time I log on
"If you are pulling your boat even a little bit diagonally, you’ll end up side-loading your rudder and the draft of your boat = more drag/less speed."
I do pull parallel but it is nice to know why, great stuff. My problem is I tend to pull with the blade a little crooked so my top hand so when I paddle on the right my thumb side is a little closer to my torso than my pinkie...it is just uncomfortable to have it straight like it should be, which is why I like the palm grip better.
Having recently gotten to review my stroke on video up on a big screen with a coach, it is a real eye opener when you would swear you have your balance and catch nailed, NOPE.
#5 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 8:45pm
Many thanks to all. Mindy, I did view the videos.
The video above let me understand the mechanics of the paddlers whose arms I would see bent. Goto, I had an "oh wow" moment hearing that the lower hand will actually enter the water to as deep as the forearm during rotation and that the arm would only bend when it had already stopped pulling as it prepared to exit. Another take home lesson: A little bend of the upper arm is permissible but hyperextension of the elbow is unnecessary.
And Joe, yes, my OC friend did want me to rotate.
The rotation video also cleared up the role of the legs and movement on the seat. To this time I was mostly rotating my torso above the waist only. I coat my gray foam seat with some slick stuff to improve comfort and to reduce friction during rotation, unless wearing a second pair of shorts can eliminate skin-to-cloth friction. Once while racing a kayak I had a serious friction problem from rotation--I walked funny for three days.
My doctor prescribes more water time.
#6 Wed, 07/16/2008 - 10:37pm
Shean,
you may want to look this up; interesting:
http://www.greenlandpaddle.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id...
I use a 'canted' stroke on my OC 1, it definitely works very well.
'Canted' - the outside edge of the paddle leads the inside edge. This leads to uneven vortex inside and outside.
The paddle is pulled parallel to the kiel line, 'hugging'
the underwater hull. The less space in between the two, the better.
Another thing I do slightly different: I enter the blade more vertically, that is: less 'reach'; then I keep that vertical position as long as possible during the stroke.
Less 'reach' does not mean less rotation here, but it means no top arm angling to extend that 'reach'.
This is to reduce the change of the angle of the blade during the pull; a vertical blade position is most effective for propulsion, so I want to keep that as long as possible.
My bottom hand conveys most of this action, the top hand supports the vertical paddle position only, no push forward or down with the top hand. No push forward, because it changes the angle of the blade too fast, no push down, because I want to move forward and not upward.
The hull should be lifted by dynamic lift during propulsion and not by the paddler pushing down.
This is an OC 1 technique. The water conditions determine whether I use is or not.
OC 6 - you imitate and paddle what the stroker paddles.
All the above = personal opinion.
#7 Thu, 07/17/2008 - 12:50pm
Eckhart, a zero bend paddle may work best for you with this style.
Cheers Rambo
#8 Thu, 07/17/2008 - 1:19pm
Cool artical Eckhart. This stuff goes deep. Being Danish, enjoyed a bit more.
#9 Thu, 07/17/2008 - 10:23pm
That part of the video still kind of got me shaking my head. Maybe in some swells that your lower arm would go in to your forearm, but not in flat water. Unless you've got some lengthy "Gorilla arms", I don't see why the lower arm would be going in that far down on the pull. That's just me.
#10 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 12:18am
Danny certainly doesn't do that on the video i posted of him a while back. I really think this one needs clarification. I know i quite often dip my knuckles in the water mid stroke on an OC1.
The audio is pretty poor on Mindy's video, so maybe there is a misunderstanding.
Cheers Rambo
#11 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 12:42am
I looked, searched for and watched a bunch of OC-1 videos and haven't seen anyone coming close to dipping their lower forearm under water. The closest is maybe was someone who had their lower grip really low on the shaft. I was taught to grip about 6 inches above where the blade starts. Even then maybe the bottom of my hand might graze water.
Catching some waves yesterday and going over the crest of the swell was the only way that I saw of dipping my lower arm in the water that much.
#12 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 1:31am
If you look at his pole vault analogy it does seem like there is a lot of emphasis put on driving the blade down, and if you are getting up to mid forearm while the blade is loaded from pulling back then you are driving down really hard! So by doing this you take you weight out of the canoe and put it on the paddle? Driving down really hard like that just makes the inside of my elbows sore.
There is a bit of disconnect between what I see in the race vids and what you hear in the clinics, but most of the info is really great for those of us who are learning to paddle on our own.
#13 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 10:56am
Good idea, Rambo, it could well be that 0 angle might help in certain circumstances.
Isn't the rudderless tradition with 0 angle blades ?
The 'canting' of the blade gives it a very nice entry, grip and a good exit. Just try it, you may like it. It pulls the blade nicely to the hull, too.
You do not lose propulsion, even though you have less area of the blade facing the water; I hope that it is more economic.
I do not use it in OC 6, and mostly in rather flat conditions.
Same is true for the '0 angle' approach.
Hand under water is likely an extreme exception for Danny Ching - that's how I understood his comment in the video.
It's fun to think/talk about technique; in the end it will always be 'time on the water'; the more you like it, the more you'll do it, the better you will be. Pretty simple.
Example: after watching the Puakea/Ching video I gathered some opinions in our club regarding top hand - everybody had a slightly different take, also everybody accounted for OC 6 and OC 1 a bit differently.
Watching the guys did not give away the 'truth' either.
What seems common: top arm and bottom arm move as one unit.
#14 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 1:43pm
In the one man's?? Just hammer.....use the stroke that works best for you. One thing about paddling one mans, if you paddle them long enough, you will automatically start figuring out what works best....for you.
Best recommendation??? Boat time....plain and simple....boat time. Just keep going, and going, and going and when you tired, go some more. It will fall into place.
Technique is more critical for the 6 mans. All six gotta blend and be in sync. Technique helps with the blend.
Jaws Out...
#15 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 1:29pm
Yes Eckhart, there are many varied stroke styles and techniques as there are different paddles. The "key "I believe, is in finding a combination of the following two things ...
The best time for technique work is on your long distance, slow pace training days (mine are Sat and Sun, 20k each).
If you're doing all the fundamental things correct and i find i can get close to this, by setting up a good twist and reach above the water, noting the position of my BOTTOM hand in space at this point, then completing the power stroke with STRAIGHT arms till my TOP hand reaches the exact same position my BOTTOM hand started in. Doing this sets up a consistent entry and exit point for the paddle, forces you paddle upright and keeps the paddle perpendicular.
Once you have this down pat you can start thinking about where to source some power. With both arms straight it can only come from your core, you have no other choice, your arms are now just an extension of the paddle. The wonderful thing about the human body, is given a repetitous task and focus, it will find the most efficient biomechanical way of producing power for you. So providing you maintain a moderate controlled pace and focus on the above technique, your legs should be pumping and providing a connection to the canoe, your abs and back should be engaged in power production and you should be moving along effortlessly with no pain or joint soreness, just a feeling of tension under load and relaxation and rhythm on the return stroke to setup.
Over time you should get faster for the same effort and eventually be able to maintain form and efficiency at race pace.
Yep, the short answer is "time on the boat" .... practicing the fundamentals.
Cheers Rambo
BTW, i tried to bury my arms at training today like Danny said and it's impossible to do at the fore of the stroke, i did however bury my fist at the point where my STRAIGHT bottom arm is level with my hip. This is what i believe he meant in the video as a key point to keeping straight arms.
#16 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 7:57pm
Technique is more critical for the 6 mans. All six gotta blend and be in sync. Technique helps with the blend.
Your kidding right. Ive seen it both ways, in OC6 and OC1. Some of the best paddlers in the world make a OC1 move without technique yet there are others who make it look oh so easy with the way they paddle. The same goes to OC6 I've been in boats without a lick of technique and they have ran great. Yet there have been times when a boat that has tons of time and years paddling couldn't run to save its life.
I do agree there is no substituted for time on the water.
#17 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 8:13pm
If technique's not important, why then do we bother with clinics???
Not to confuse STYLE with Technique. Some people have an ugly STYLE, but can make a canoe go with a technique that obviously suits them.
Not everyone has the ability to pull water, those people need to develop a technique to help them do that better.
Cheers Rambo
#18 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 8:40pm
Biggest for me, stick the paddle in cement and draw the boat forward while bracing the foot.
Most useful coaching points from vids for me:
1) If the top hand comes forward too soon you lose the forward angle on the catch. The top hand must not move forward faster than the bottom hand
2) Add acceleration through the stroke. I get a little less cavitation when I do this rather than try to rip the blade. I still get noise and cavitation for the first 90 minutes until I start to get tired but thinking of slinging the boat or the way you do a powerclean where you accelerate rather than yank the bar helps me.
3) Relax on the recovery. Breath. I don't breath as fully as I could
Things that are still hard: 1) Balancing the boat. OK if it is perfectly calm, if it is bumpy then I am a fraction away from flipping and figure I just as well lean on the ama. 2) blade fully buried before pulling back The longer the paddle I use the better this gets. 3) knowing if I am pulling back too hard or "killing the glide" with too slow an exit or some body english that is inchworming or screwing me up. When I paddle on the left, the boat really slows down for sure.
#19 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 10:30pm
Tpopler01 - a nice term is 'prisoner' boat on those certain days ...
Every coach/club has certain aspects of the stroke that they teach/want to see.
Some confusion remains, because most of the things that are being talked about are not done identically by many, including the best.
Shawn,
Karel Jr hulis/used to huli quite often when he tests the limits - it's a good thing.
If you are slow on the left, maybe this helps, I read it somewhere: put your weight on the blade, not on the ama.
On the right: pretend that you paddle without ama and that your blade is your ama. Get your ama up at the catch on every stroke.
#20 Fri, 07/18/2008 - 10:50pm
More time on the water has brought me to discover near the end of a little race that I have a shorter stroke length because I had my bottom hand close to the blade. I came home, sat down on a platform about four inches above the carpet and compared where the blade tip touched down with different lower hand positions. By moving my hand up 5-7 inches I could get 6 to 7 inches of additional stroke length, which I hope to find useful. This looks like a trade off between stroke length and leverage on the paddle blade (more leverage with hands further apart). In most photos I have seen about 5 to 10 inches between the blade & the paddlers lower hand. They have paddled more than I have--they must know more than I. Stroke length may not be the only reason I paddle so slowly, so I'll just try copy the winners and improve my results. I didn't come to the wrong conclusion, did I?
I have two paddle friends who live near, but neither has pointed this out to me. I'm all ears/eyes for your comments.
E7M, I wish I'd paid more attn to your note on your bottom hand placement.
I shall have to go to the water again soon.
Thanks, all.
#21 Mon, 07/21/2008 - 3:07pm
Lower hand placement all depends on the paddle length overall and also the length of the blade. Most blades nowadays are about 16.5-18 inches while you may have the occasional 18-20 inch blades. Most of the older paddles when I started OC-6 were the 19 inch blades so converting that to what I have now in my 16.5 inch blades, I'm actually about 7-8 inches above the blade.
Most of the younger crews (i.e. 13 and below) boys and girls at the canoe club nearby start out with those wide grips as they do give them discipline of the technique of the straight arms and leverage. As they get better and older, they can move on to moving their lower grip up as their leverage gets better and can get a better reach/stroke.
In regards again to paddle length, it also depend on your size and comfort level. Some start out basic with what the sizing charts say, but if you look for other threads regarding paddle size/length, you'll see different opinions. Some have the same length when it comes to OC-1/OC-6, but then you have others that go shorter or longer when they are in one than the other.
Just have to put in time on the water and tryout a few sizes to see what works for you.
Sometimes you got to ask for critiques from others as some people don't like offering them, even if they do or don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. Some people just think, you'll eventually learn by watching others and copy them instead of just stopping and pointing it out to a stranger just starting out. This goes for any activity or sport.
#22 Mon, 07/21/2008 - 4:06pm