OK, we have all heard the argument over HCRA hull design criteria and whether or not to allow for unlimited design, but when it comes to the OC-1 what is the difference between that and a surf ski? Most consider the surf ski to be faster than an OC-1, but what is the real hull design difference? Why not just put an ama on a surf ski? Wouldn't that make a faster OC-1?
Submitted by drkanupaddler on Fri, 07/25/2008 - 9:47pm
That's how they started, more or less.
The hull of the surfski is wider.
#1 Sat, 07/26/2008 - 2:09am
Racing skis are in the 17" range and most canoes are in the 14" range. Skis are faster because no drag from the ama and I think that a double bladed paddle is more efficient than our single blades. The paddle thing would be easy to test. Just paddle your canoe with your regular paddle vs a kayak paddle (as long as you know how to paddle a double blade equally well).
#2 Sat, 07/26/2008 - 10:31am
I stuck an ama onto a surfski in a place where va a were unknown and the surfkiers culd not understand what for -- unless as a trainer float.
The ama caused drag to slow the craft down and the single blade lacked the efficiency of the double blade. Any argument about following tradition would have been pure BS under the circumstances.
Then coming to Polynesia I learned about waka ama as being the entirely paddle powered/steered craft of tradition for open water paddling. The essential difference seems to be in the creation of a hull (as in 'dugut hull') that is light enough for open water use and structually able to cope with rough water, by nature of the fact that beam is limited enough to require an outrigger for stability.
#3 Sat, 07/26/2008 - 3:22pm
Narrow beam of a waka allows fro more efficient use of a single blade along with higher seating position made possible by the stability imparted by outrigger.
Dropping the seating position to help fly the ama and adding beam to create more volume in order to get running on bumps is of course heading in the design directon that surfskis have already gone. It's a new direction, not 'traditional' of course, but then there is nothing traditional about rudder steering anyway.
#4 Sat, 07/26/2008 - 3:34pm
surf skis are faster becuase they dont have an ama, and they stroke the water twice before an oc 1 paddler strokes once..
#5 Sun, 07/27/2008 - 3:31pm
The OC 1 should be faster from a design perspective provided you paddle the ama 'light'.
Has anybody compared a run with a kayak paddle with a regular run using a OC paddle ?
#6 Sun, 07/27/2008 - 3:40pm
1 mans are way cooler than surf skis though for sure. And thats what really matters.
#7 Sun, 07/27/2008 - 7:12pm
One interesting comparison I've recently observed is the difference between a ski and an OC in a very long race (340 miles). Note, this may have a lot more to do with the paddler than the boats, but...
The MR340 men's solo record was set by Carter Johnson last week paddling a borrowed Huki S1-X at 37 hours 46 minutes. This record beat the existing record set by Dave Anderson paddling a Kaimana OC last year with a time of 46 hours 21 minutes and using both single and double blades (this is still the third fastest time).
Now I know there are many different variables to consider, such as a faster river this year; however, the difference in time is hard to ignore. Both paddlers are great athletes and it was an honor just to be in the same race with them. Just interesting to consider how the boats perform over a long period of time.
#8 Mon, 07/28/2008 - 6:47am
I've been a follower of Carter Johnson for some time and if i had to pick one thing he does well, it would be his preparation. Carter has all the tricks up his sleeve and rarely fails to achieve or exceed what he sets out to do.
If Ultra distance stuff is your passion, Google his name and check him out.
Cheers Rambo
#9 Mon, 07/28/2008 - 1:04pm
You won't find this info on Carter by googling him, but one of the most impressive things about him is that the guy can really take a punch or two...
#10 Mon, 07/28/2008 - 6:05pm
he CAN?!
#11 Mon, 07/28/2008 - 6:32pm
Carter Johnson, after the race last week, was very gracious and spoke to everyone and tolerated all the questions all the adoring fans had for him. He was just a regular joe. His dad and his sister Lelah served as his ground support and it was cool to watch them make the big race a family affair. He hung out with us mortals for two days after the race just chillin' and talking paddlesports. He doesn't let his fame get in the way. Very cool guy, IMHO.
Here are the photos his dad and sister took during the race: http://tinyurl.com/59yq2v
Laters,
Dan
#12 Tue, 07/29/2008 - 4:11am
Wow, Dan. Mahalo for the incredible photos and story! It sure makes those 2-3 hr. practices seem easy. Do you know how much he slept (if at all) during the race?
#13 Tue, 07/29/2008 - 4:55am
Jim:
I don't think he slept at all. He was pushing Team Texas in a 6-man Safari style boat and they were not sleeping either. He told me that if the race would have been one more checkpoint that he would have had to sleep. I think he said to one of the guys in the Texas boat that the 37 hours was pushing his sleep deprivation limit and still paddle at a high level.
I've read Carter Johnson's race diary from the Texas Water Safari that he will occassionally paddle with his eyes closed to sort of help the body shut down in certain ways. Looking up once in a while to get a berring and not run into an obstruction. I honestly don't know how he does that in a ski, but I guess that's want makes him who he is. He even tried to single blade in the race last week, but found that it was a little too alien for him in his ski. I think he said/wrote that he wanted to brace but had nothing on the off side with which to brace. Sort of funny when you think about it
If you want to learn more about the Missouri River 340, checkout www.rivermiles.com. My two-women/two-men team took 10th overall in a Safari style boat that weighed about 160 pounds. But, we were way behind Carter Johnson. We were happy with our 51 hours.
SYOTR,
Dan
#14 Tue, 07/29/2008 - 6:28am
If the difference between an OC and a surfski comes down to 3 things :
single blade paddle, raised foam seat, and lastly, an ama that is more of a
token than an essential component (when it is being flown as is the
tendency), then in fact a Hawaiian OC1 is little more than a heavy surfsski.
The extra weight could be beneficial in terms of seaworthiness if the design
intention was to turn this (weight and stability) into an advantage. The
added weight of an outrigger is relatively low in respect to the stability
gained - an extra metre+ for only a handful of kilograms in weight, and this
is largely what makes an outrigger seaworthy.
When conditions are extreme, the ability to lie a'hull can be a lifesaving
factor. The kiato then need to be sturdy and well lashed so that they bear up at
all times. Pop in pipes can pop out when the going gets tough and disaster
can be the consequence.
#15 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 10:47am
wait....wait....wait......Im confused. Arent OC1's lighter than surfski's?
#16 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 11:49am
I question the security of the "twist to lock" iakos as I've had those come undone on me, but the spring loaded pin seems plenty safe as long as one keeps an eye on the condition of the spring pins.
#17 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 11:52am
Say 7 Kg for the lightest sski.
An OC1 that is 7Kg all up including iako and ama is going to be the flimsiest craft of all, especially if it has similar volume to a sski for lift to run down bumps. So what about the "seaworthiness" quality that I was talking about?
A skinny or short OC may be lighter, but won't work so well on bumps.
#18 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 12:09pm
Ideally a boat's weight is customized to the paddler's weight, beause bending forces and oscillations imparted by the waves act upon the hull.
There are some formulas to calulate all that; after that, the discussion will flare up again.
Some will say rigidity is needed, some will say it is not.
Example: Alutian eskimo baidarka - a kayak with a skin, yet very fast.
Some will prefer a heavier boat, some a lighter boat, depending on what they want to do with it.
Most reliable predictions cover flat water conditions; the open ocean conditions are very difficult to predict; much remains open to interpretation as far as I understand.
A good forum:
www.boatdesign.net/ see forum
#19 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 12:46pm
Most boats are like a turtle or horshoe crab overturned on the beach, they have a problem getting right side up again.
You have a choice you can make the boats big and bottom heavy and perhaps give them some ballast or...
...you can make them light and build them with a lever to flip them back over. The ama is for stability, but it is also a lever for putting the boat back upright.
Did you ever wonder why our boats aren't trimarans?
Trimarans are fast and have skads of intial stability, but once they go over there's no getting them up. You have to build sailing trimarans with an escape hatch on the underside now by law.
We have "one training wheel" that doubles as a lever for tipping us back upright.
I don't know much about surfskis, but my guess is they must be hard to get back into after you've dumped in rough seas. I could be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#20 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 1:50pm
goodwaka, it has become apparent to me that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Thank you.
Love, goto
#21 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 1:58pm
Goto: When it comes to selling two bit sit-on OC's with the 'better,
faster, lighter' promotional hype, then what I say must be hard to swallow -- and impossible for an OC rep!
I'll only accept defeat when a surfski with ama and hoe actually beats a
ski across the Kaiwi channel.
And that's a scientific fact
#22 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 2:47pm
And racing your grandma across doesn't count
#23 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 2:53pm
Yankee... I paddle surfski more than OC-1 so I can comment on your observation about the relative difficulty of getting on a surfski vs an OC-1.
I recently got a new surfski. It is much more difficult for me to remount than my old one. On my old surfski, the gunnels were very shallow and I sometimes would get washed off the top of it by side-chop. But getting back on was super easy. Just flip it over and climb on in a similar fashion as you would climb on a surfboard. When I was first starting out, I would sometimes fall right off again, but soon got good enough that a remount would be super fast. Much faster than on an oc1, where I would have to take the ama into account when climbing on and might have to re-adjust my leash.
With my new 'ski, I am much more stable in the side-chop since I sit deeper in it with higher gunnels, but remounting is more difficult. I am still getting used to it, but it can take me several tries before I am upright and stable again.
The key here is not that the ama makes it easier to flip the craft back over by serving as a "lever" as you surmised, that part is easy with a surfski. The ama simply keeps you stable once you have climbed back on. That can make a difference when you are tired and have huli'd several times in the messy waters coming around black point.
[If anyone is curious about how to remount a surfski, there is a great illustration here on surfski.info]
#24 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 3:10pm
Ha ha :) ...not trying to defeat you, sell anything, or even argue that surfskis aren't faster than one-mans.
You just gotta admit, it's funny reading what you write, when YOU'RE the one with the insurmountable bias, judgemental attitude, and singularity of thought.
you don't need to tell everybody that surfskis are better than one-mans, and I'm not trying to argue the opposite. Everyone here is smart enough to figure it all out for themselves...
...really.
Love, goto
#25 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 4:36pm
Yankee
Got to agree with Rachel. Way easier righting a ski than a oc. Ama's for stability not designed as a righting aid.
As for trimarans having to have an escape hatch on the bottom by law. Damn Republicans again.
#26 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 4:58pm
My vote would be havin' t' be that OC-1 an' V-1 be probably as fast as or faster than surfski hulls they's self. But that whole two bladed paddle thin' makes a huge difference. Th' fact that an OC-1 can do th' solo wi' surfski’s an' come in 7th overall wi' one less paddle on board ortin' ta be proof enough. BE SEEIN' HERE
But wasn’t this all spake before?
Geese i’m sea sick o' listenin' t' canoe reps peddle the'r wares on here too. But t' call any o' th' canoes sold now days “two bit” be jus' crazy. So much design work an' research has gone into racin' canoes that 't’s a slap in th' face o' boat builders t' call them such a thin'. Unless o' course by two bit ye meant th' ama be one bit an' th' hull be th' second bit. This would then make all surfski’s one bit sit on top hulls.
#27 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 5:19pm
Yep! I just gotta admit to bias and singularity of thought - I prefer
outriggers more than any other type of craft and think of them too much.
About being funny.. That was a thing that I thought my messages were short
on. The humour on this site is mostly great, your's being right up
with the best. So, it's a good idea to just shut up now to stop the bitchin.
#28 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 6:16pm
Oh yeah, forgot about "judgemental".... that is probably admissable too. Also, I fart a lot after eating spagetti
#29 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 6:23pm
Surfski : faster learning curve,
Va'a hoe : very rewarding when you start to manage the surf.
Won't give up any of the two boats...
#30 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 6:24pm
Oh, snap!
Mr. BzKnz
#31 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 6:42pm
I am with the French pirate:
OC 1 hull is faster than surfski because it has a narrower beam.
#32 Wed, 07/30/2008 - 9:33pm
Surfski design limited because to increase performance means a reduction of pri/sec stability. The stability/speed relationship needs thoughtful compromise, especially on the bump. Bracing costs performance. Many surfski paddlers go faster on a "slower" more stable ski in open water races than on a "faster" less stable ski because they are more inclinced to paddle and less to brace when listing.
As for OC, the ama provides the primary and a degree of secondary stability therefore we can streamline the main hull more to increase performance with much less compromise for stability. However, In OC the drag/weight of outrigger costs performance. Sure, you can fly the ama but how many of us can paddle as hard and fast when it's flying as when it's dragging?
Then of course you have the double vs single blade. There's no doubt a single blade is a comfortable, natural stroke but also no doubt the double is a powerfull, efficient stroke.
Anyway, everytime both are raced together the top surfskiers are generally faster than top OC1's. (at least on the races I've seen). So my belief is that SS is faster than OC1.
Very much agree with Hiro; it's best to paddle OC1, V1, and SS for the complete program. :)
#33 Thu, 07/31/2008 - 6:23am
So is most of the difference in speed coming from drag on the ama or because a double blade is that much more efficient. Someone who is comfortable on both needs to do some time trials on an OC with a canoe blade and a double blade.
#34 Thu, 07/31/2008 - 8:05am
I do not know what the average stroke rate is in a surfski, let's assume that it is about 50 % higher than on an OC 1.
So when the OC 1 pulls water 60 times, the surfski pulls water 90 times.
The surfski will have less total recovery time. This is a definite advantage.
It is not the hull design that makes the surfski faster.
google for "Lazauskas + hull"
#35 Thu, 07/31/2008 - 10:43am
is this the article you referring to eckhart?
http://www.wavewalk.com/COMPARISON.html
good info in there, probably can be translated directly to oc1... not so much the application of those principles with the product he's pitching though- ughh
#36 Thu, 07/31/2008 - 11:20am
dacho - this is the net address:
http://www.cyberiad.net/hull.htm
Look at the software section also; the programs are free to use and after a short learning period you can use them to create your own hulls, change features of theses hulls and see how that influences resistance etc.
#37 Thu, 07/31/2008 - 9:35pm