Hawaii State Championships

Does anyone know the results yet???? I'm off island and can't get anyone to call me. Must be drinkin' beers.....

Submitted by hukihuki on Sat, 08/02/2008 - 6:48pm



I wasn't there but I heard Lanikai beat Hawaiian by 3 points! Hawaiian's kids were hard to beat but the Lanikai adults brought in some points to get ahead , in the last race of the day! LAnikai's men won Fresh, sophmore, junior and senior! Their Novice A mens were Dq'd. That's all I know but the full results should be in Sunday mornings Honolulu Advertiser.


#1 Sat, 08/02/2008 - 9:33pm


paddlefast


#2 Sat, 08/02/2008 - 9:33pm


After 7 impressive years of Hawaiian being State Champions, it is Lanikai now:

Lanikai won; I believe 3 points is correct, 355 to 352.


#3 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 7:06am


Here is the link off of the hcrapaddler.com website to the complete results.
http://hcrapaddler.com/members/hcra_results.php?view=byevent&rid=64


#4 Sat, 08/02/2008 - 11:12pm


interestin' t' eyeball th' medal counts. hawaiian had by far th' most medals. but lanikai seems t' be havin' won by sheer numbers and overall performance. thanks fer th' link mikala.


#5 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 12:04am


Yeah thanks for the link! Does it look like Kai Opua won the aaa div? I rough counted 166 points.


#6 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 1:06am


If you change the View to Club by Division, it shows 165 for Kai Opua.


#7 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 5:23am


Ho eckhart! Why'd you delete that whole post? No shame cuzin!


#8 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 7:31am


Do they still sing nah-nah-nah-nah, nah-nah-nah-nah, hey-hey, Lanikai? Sounds like some intense racing. Kudos to the Hawaiian Canoe Club Keiki-seems like they won every race! Very impressive, when you consider the number of keiki paddlers statewide.


#9 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 7:49am


Hi Jim - paddletics - 'there is a time to talk and a time to be silent'.

Yep, they still sing it.

It took quite a while until the final results were known; I am not sure what the challenge was, or who made it - the boat in race 39 was pushed at the start ?

Three years ago we had a novice boat in the States; having been declared winner in our race initially, we were surprised to read in the results lists that we had come in second later. A rule violation - a boat had hit another boat causing it to huli - had been challenged, counter challenged etc.. - beneficiary was Hawaiian.

It is part of the race and hopefully evens out over the years.


#10 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 9:20am


Frankly Eckhart, in my experience, which includes about fifteen regatta seasons w/ LCC, such rulings go against Lanikai approximately 100% of the time. Must be total cheaters!


#11 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 1:59pm


Except for this time. Too bad for the regatta to end that way.


#12 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 3:03pm


The Hawaiian 40 master women were DQed for a false start. In no way did the boat holder push the boat. He is one of HCC's best boat holders and held all of the 1/4 mile races as he's done for the past few years.

In the 40 master women race, the officials reviewed the video of the start line but could not determine if Hawaiian broke the start line before the green flag went up. The video of the start line was not wide enough to see the canoes and the start boat.


#13 Sun, 08/03/2008 - 9:01pm


.


#14 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 10:09am


Yea, Karma is a wonderful thing. Lanikai should have left the Novice A race alone and gone head to head with the competition they had all year with Outrigger's A's. Karma can bite you when you play that way.

But hats off to Lanikai's men they were very impressive. The most exiting race of the day had to be the Sophomore men's when Lanikai came back in the last eighth of a mile to take gold. Wow that was cool.


#15 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 2:13am


Wow, mrxp, you just called Kalani Irvine, one of the sports most respected figures, a liar w/ out even revealing your own identity. All balls! Furthermore, if Kalani felt that the guy wasn't eligible for Nov. A's, he probably wasn't. As for the Mstrs. 40 DQ, if it could not be determined that they crossed the start line early, why were they DQed?


#16 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 3:38am


SSNPADDLER

I guess it was a baptism of fire for the Novice Paddlers, LCC rocked the season winning impressive until OCC found a ringer, 1 steersman making up an average of 20 second deficit i am still learning but dont see how that happens that quick( find his name and do the research was he eligible or not) Sucks for the novice paddlers who love the sport. i didn't know it carried that far down the ranks, I suppose clubs will be finding ways to pad the 12 year old girls next. Is it worth training to excel at this sport if the leaders find ways to cheat the system. Good Job to LCC novice A who buried the flag had stop for confusion and still ended up in a strong 4th. Karma does suck. I would like LCC to enjoy there hard earned state title but it seems no love will be given. thank god for distance season.


#17 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 5:27am


:)wow.... i agree ssnpaddler, mahaloz for distance season!


#18 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 7:01am


ssnpaddler-

Paddler in question had been paddling all season with another 24 yr old that had raced last in 2003 as 18s. According to OHCRA rules after 5 years from paddling in boys 18s you can petition to reclassify as a Nov A. Everything was up & up until OCC started taking out the division for the second half of the season.

Just the fact it went down the evening before States and OHCRA President made the call representing Lanikai, but stating he could do it as the OHCRA president is foul play any way you look at it.

The story ends pretty well as the kid steared Open 4 to a 2nd place.

My point is, with all these shenanigans & bs, it seems like alot of people walk away from States with bitter taste in their mouths whether it be the LCC & OCC nov A, or Hawaiian mstrs or entire clubs as a whole.

The sport needs to come first, then the Clubs, then the crews & lastly the paddler.


#19 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 10:01am


To MRXP:

Before you blast OHCRA president Kalani Irvine you should be aware that the State Championship was run and officiated by Hui Waa not by OHCRA. Kalani did not have any official capacity to make decisions about the running of the races or officiating. The race officials, not Kalani, incorrectly posted Lanikai as the 4th place finisher in the Nov. A race. Everybody in our tent and hundreds of people on the beach saw them knock down the flag. The water official notified the official stand and somebody on the official stand did not follow through when the official results were posted. That is where the error occurred. Kalani had nothing to do with the posting of results. There was no "Cover Up" on the part of Lanikai or by OHCRA president Irvine. When the officials discovered their mistake (five hours after the incident) a correction was made. Nobody from Lanikai protested the DQ. The delay in calculating the final results were caused by a protest filed by Puna in the mixed open race (false start), a protest by both Hui Nalu and Hawaiian for false starts in the 40 women's race. Lanikai had nothing to do with any of those protests.

As to your second point. Outrigger's Nov. A steersman, Billy Lawson, was not an eligible paddler for Nov. A. He was mistakenly allowed to paddle in Nov. A because the official records did not show the last year that he paddled. I spoke to Mike Mason, Outrigger' coach, about it and Kalani spoke to Outrigger's canoe racing director about it. It was resolved at that level and any sour grapes that ensued were further down the chain.
If you have any additional questions or comments about this you can contact me directly. My phone number is 808-2633151.

                                  Tommy Conner
                                  Head Coach, Lanikai Canoe Club

#20 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 9:05am


To Kalani's 'blatant lie', I think you need to give him a little credit. I was watching the race and didn't see the flag had been buried. All of the attention was focused on the fact that Lanikai almost collided with the boat in the next lane, causing them to back paddle to avoid crashing the koa boats into each other. So if Kalani was unaware, I think you need to give him the benefit of the doubt.

As for the calling out of his character and reputation, once again, you should give him the benefit of the doubt. Kalani acted on information provided to him when he was made aware of it, as is his duty as the President.

I think the bottom line is that everyone wants to keep the competition fair and the playing field level. If there was a Lanikai paddler in question, and it was brought to Kalani's attention, he would have done the same thing, disqualify that paddler for the race.


#21 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 9:13am


Jim, exactly, your question on why is there a dq if it was not clearly shown on the tape is what we are talking about. Just another example of the questionable shenanigans that gives the paddlers a bad taste. Lanikai's Nov A dq was not in the calculations until that Mstrs Wn 40s race and I would hope it had no influence on that race's result.

But regardless, I have seen Lanikai on the short end of the stick many a times.

It would just be cool to have a non-controversial states for once.


#22 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 9:36am


Paddler in question also paddled Freshman in 2003.


#23 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 11:01am


You can not blame the soldiers, blame the generals...The paddlers all trained hard and no one was there unless they earned it. Shame on the coaches and officials for not being better, being examples and allowing these types of "question" to permeate and soil a legacy as wonderful as states.

Reading these posts I am discouraged, bitter and outraged all at once. Come on OHCRA what is it going to take for you to get you s*&^ together and run right? Outrigger earned their spot in the Novice A, played by the rules you set forth and deserved a shot at victory. Not calling DQ's or following the rules? Huh? Nice example.

For the president of OHCRA to make a decisions that overrode protocol at the llth hour makes no sense. To blatantly ignore rule violations is even worse. This behavior is foolish, unethical and did more harm to the sport if anything.

Thanks to you Mr. President, Lani Kai is celebrating a hollow victory and their reputation is tainted because of decisions that you made or officials you supported. Lani Kai deserves better. They earned the right to be the best and in one simple act it was now taken away... Next time think, put the shoe on the other foot, think about the impact on the sport, be above reproach, it makes you and everyone better and puts sport before self and before club.

Being that this is the state sport, tens of thousands of us compete through out the season, it requires a lot of thankless effort to produce these types of events. With that said, know it going into it and if you cannot commit to doing the job to its fullest, don't commit. For those crying about volunteering or want to talk about how hard it is, this is definitely not for you and you should step aside. For those who feel like putting sport before self, then this is a job for you...

On the other hand maybe this is symptomatic of a bigger issue and the time is right for a new governing body who can lead and build rather than follow and fail. OHCRA and HCRA have had there day and will always have there place but maybe a new org needs to enter the landscape?

It is our sport...Its time we (as a community) take responsibility for it and act.


#24 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 4:02pm


Seat 6, the Outrigger guy being declared ineligibile had no effect on the outcome of the regatta ( if anything it benefited HCC), and like TC said, Kalani and OHCRA did not DQ the HCC mstrs. women. Hollow victory, maybe, but it's a stretch to suggest that LCC or Kalani somehow used their influence to effect the regatta's final result.


#25 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 4:44pm



#26 Thu, 03/05/2009 - 5:53pm


bamskii, paddler in question did paddle in 2003, for 18s.. he raced freshmen, however they got DQed, so technically he was eligible. he raced all year, but until they started winning, someone grumbled.. cowardly call and a poor sportsmanship attitude. i mean come on, if you were lanikai, grumbled and disqualified your main competition, would it make yourself feel good that you won? no.


#27 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 5:59pm


Let us all be happy and help each other to go forward together in happiness.

Care for your fellow paddler like you care for yourself.

All this fighting makes me so sad.

Peace and love to everyone. Even the angry ones.


#28 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 8:17pm


Congrats to all those that paddled this weekend and the weeks leading up to states, it's hard work, practice and dedication that needs to be recognized as the achievement here. Remember, " the journey is the reward". If you left it all on the course this weekend be proud of yourself. I'd like to thank the bros on my crew that paddled with me all year came to practice everyday and helped the crew get to states, and didn't get the chance to go, without you states wouldn't have been possible. You were part of the journey and that is what matters most. Mahalo Nui.


#29 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 8:35pm


Young Buck, are you attacking me over the forum, or are you referring to mbsski's comments. Make sure you know who you're referring to before making strong posts. Make wise and thorough choices before directing a smart ass post towards me...dumbass!

Quite popping off on the forum and leave it in the water where one has a chance to find out the persons true identity. Or simply write your name after your post.

Carlton Helm

save la'au point.


#30 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 11:52pm


save la'au point.


#31 Mon, 08/04/2008 - 11:52pm


this is getting heated. just give lanikai credit they won and nobody can do anything to change it now so why bother and stress over it. mad props to my neighbors...


#32 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 12:25am


Seat 6 - maybe you should go back and check your facts, OHCRA did not officiate this race, it was officiated by Hui Wa'a. Hui Wa'a is a competing association in which OHCRA does not have rights to override any calls. There were a total of 15 DQs in the course of this race. 90 paddlers who made the cut and then were DQd for various reasons. To imply that Lanikai somehow manipulated the results is just plain ignorant. The Lanikai program consists of over 500 members and coaches that train hard and paddle well. There was a regatta earlier this year in which Lanikai's most experienced boat holders was called for a DQ which he felt was unreasonable, it happens to everyone, officials make calls on the water to the best of their ability and although they may seem lame at times it isn't an easy job and nearly impossible for the whole group to collude to throw a result.

LCC has moved on and is concentrating on Molokai and bringing that one back home, maybe it's time for the rest of you to get on your canoes and do the same.


#33 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 6:52am


If someone paddled 18s in the 2003 season, wouldn't that make him an open paddler in the 2008 season (if you paddle as a youth, don't you have to move straight to open)? If you have to take off 5 seasons to go back to Novice A, wouldn't that paddler have to had to wait until 2009 season to come back as an A?

Is the dispute whether the paddler was eligible, or just that no one found out about it or did anything about it until right before states?

If it was my competition, and I found out that a paddler who should be open was paddling as a novice, I would probably say something too. If it was my own club, I would be outraged. Cheating is bad. I'm going to assume it was unintentional.


#34 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 10:13am


simeon "young buck" kepaloma

before people write anything get your info straight


#35 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 10:30am


On a much lighter note.. much mahaloz to Healani CC for letting us Vagabonds crash ur pa'ina! *=0) Pretty sure was way more happening than Waikiki Beach Boy's fundraiser. lmao!


#36 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 11:14am


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too:
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream -- and not make dreams your master;
If you can think -- and not make thoughts your aim,
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same:
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings,
And never breathe a word about your loss:
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings -- nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And -- which is more -- you'll be a Man, my son!

-- Rudyard Kipling

Congratulations Lanikai. When your goal is Molokai, states is just a stepping stone. I wish you guys the best.


#37 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 12:11pm


Wow. Nothing like the feeling of throwing your fellow paddler under the bus when the crap hits the fan.

Please, lets have more love and less finger pointing.

We must all join hands and move as one.

All my love to all of you.


#38 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 12:49pm


Ryan d, awesome awesome. LOL


#39 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 1:59pm


Way to go joe, nice post!


#40 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 3:29pm


my bad wrong i referred to the wrong post. i dont paddle novice, did any of us paddle novice? lets drop it. paddle with love! my bad carlton.


#41 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 5:09pm


all i have to say to all you haters is we will see you during distance. good luck trying to stay up with our novice A's.


#42 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 6:51pm


shutupnpaddle
It is interesting reading the many opinions of our paddlers.

We pride ourselves on being a special "breed", one that we recognize and connect, no matter what part of the world we live...

Knowledge is the key and while we value everyone's opinion it is best to back your statements with facts.

The state race is officiated by representatives from the six associations that comprise HCRA. To allow fairness, the officials are divided into different areas of their expertise.

We may whine after a 16 hour day, primarily because we have had 2 days of preparation in order to produce an event of this magnitude and we are tired. We don't attend pre-race event parties and post event parties...we are taking down the tents and cleaning up the beaches and stands and putting everything away until next time.

We "volunteer" to do this job because we want to be a part of the solution and not the problem and when we wear the hat of an HCRA official it is our responsibility to represent the association to the best of our ability.

We are human, we make errors, which is why we have technology to support our decisions. These tapes of each race are NOT used to support the decision of the judges but to prove that decision to be invalid. If those tapes are inconclusive the decision of the judges are final.

The officials do not thrive on disqualifying the crews, we are paddlers we understand the committment to get to the states and we do not sit around saying, hey let's see if we can DQ that crew.

We have rules that have been voted on by the general membership which consists of over 60+ clubs and these representatives are voted into their positions by the 8000+ PADDLERS through out the state.

If you don't like the rules then you need to change them; our job is to follow them.

We are not perfect but we TRY and for all the registrars, coaches, club "moms", equipment managers, water officials, spotters, judges and recorders...thank you for your time and dedication to making these events possible...

To all the paddlers who participated in the state races, congratulations for a job well done!

To the keiki, you are the reason we continue to perpetuate the sport of outrigger canoe paddling so that you can learn about working together and being humble...we are fortunate to be able to enjoy the ocean, to have a paddling ohana and to enjoy the beauty of a koa canoe...it would be shameful to take that for granted.

a hui hou...Nazarene
HCRA Race Secretary 2008


#43 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 6:54pm


Memo to Ryan and Patrick: Hurry up and get back home. We have work to do. Coach Tommy.


#44 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 9:00pm


Congratulations Lanikai on your victory! Also, well said Nazarene!
Hope you all had fun! I sure did!
A hui hou!


#45 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 9:59pm


Better to take this pilikia back to the water. Kaena Challenge Sunday August 10 Sunset beach to Yokohama 21 miles. WIN or LOSE, winds are going to be smokin. It will be what it's suppose to be about...fun. Tide is going to be rising. Perfect conditions for OC-1 or OC-6. keau@flex.com for more info. Aloha


#46 Tue, 08/05/2008 - 10:22pm


Wow, it's good to see the positive comments, but as a first-year adult paddler who raced last weekend, I'm surprised about the negative posts in this thread. What happened to Hawaiian values like Laulima (cooperation), Ohana (family), Ha’a’ha (humility), Kuleana (responsibility) or Kokua (helping)?

I assure you that the kids in the sport and the newbies don't suspect that anyone would or could bend the rules to get a medal or extra points for their club.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results on October 12. May the best team win!

alt text


#47 Wed, 08/06/2008 - 1:24pm


JAYBIRD A GREAT Race! Hawaiians kids were awesome, Hui Lanakila's Women (short-handed) were BAD and Lanikai's upper division Men scary. As were the other winners, like Keahiakahoe's 18 "men", Keaukaha's 40+ men. Nate Kaluhiwa is da bomb.

However "OUR SPORT" should come first! Power to the sport! Associations, Officers and Officials should be above reproach. Instead, some put themselves as "power players".

Hui Waa blew it with a series of "I'm better than you" moves that shows they are still J.V.s. AUWE!!!

Politics is for Government, it has no place in Paddling.


#48 Wed, 08/06/2008 - 5:22pm


Puna Canoe Club’s experience was similar to Hawaiian Canoe Club’s: A questionable DQ for false start, a futile protest and an “inconclusive” video that could not show that an infraction occurred. It too cost us a title (AAA). At the coaches meeting we were told that proper notification would be given to a club in the event of a DQ. This did not happen in our case. We were never called up to the official stand. As underdogs, we were eagerly awaiting results for an hour & half after the regatta, unaware that our mixed-open crew was disqualified in the deciding race. We only found out when one of our coaches asked an official what was taking so long. The official returned with the news that we were disqualified and to make a protest if we wanted to dispute it

 Now that the dust has settled, I would like to make a few observations about the State Regatta as a whole.  On the Big Island we usually have no more than two or three DQs per regatta.  I suspect that this holds true for other islands as well.  At the States, however, there was a whopping 14 DQs.  This seems excessive even accounting for the fact that there are more crews on the water.  It is about a 5 fold increase over a regular regatta.

 It is also interesting to note that early in the day there were very few DQ’s. It was only as the day progressed and the older more experienced crews began racing did we start seeing a lot of DQs.  That may seem strange, unless you consider that it’s a close regatta and the stakes are high.   Suddenly, the officials have a lot of power and can affect the outcome of the whole regatta.  Unfortunately, this did not encourage the officials to show restraint. In fact the last few races were riddled with DQs.

. I am not going to subscribe to any conspiracy theories, but it seems that if the officials are going to have such an impact on the results then they should be held more accountable. It is up to the clubs to send reps to the HCRA meetings to correct some of the problems that were encountered this year. For instance line infractions should not be judgment calls since they can be verified or overruled by video. There are many conscientious HCRA officials who operate with integrity. However, I think some people in the HCRA need to reevaluate their mind set. The race official’s role should not be that of the spoiler who employs over-zealous or questionable calls. Rather the race official should be fostering fair competition and sportsmanship on the race course

  In closing we at Puna hope to come back strong next year, realizing that we have to live with the decisions that were made.  I just hope some HCRA officials can live the decisions that they made.   

Beverly Tuaolo
Puna Canoe Club


#49 Thu, 08/07/2008 - 3:07pm


Puna Canoe Club’s experience was similar to Hawaiian Canoe Club’s:  A questionable DQ for false start, a futile protest and an “inconclusive” video that could not show that an infraction occurred.   It too cost us a title (AAA).  At the coaches meeting we were told that proper notification would be given to a club in the event of a DQ.    This did not happen in our case.  We were never called up to the official stand.   As underdogs, we were eagerly awaiting results for an hour & half after the regatta, unaware that our mixed-open crew was disqualified in the deciding race.    We only found out when one of our coaches asked an official what was taking so long.  The official returned with the news that we were disqualified and to make a protest if we wanted to dispute it .

Now that the dust has settled, I would like to make a few observations about the State Regatta as a whole. On the Big Island we usually have no more than tow or three DQs per regatta. I suspect that this hold true for other islands as well. At the States, however, there was a whopping 14 DQs. This seems excessive even accounting for the fact that there are more crews on the water. It is about a 5-ffold increase over a regular regatta.

It is interesting to note that early in the day there were very few DQ's. It was only as the day progressed and the older more experienced crews began racing did we start seeing a lot of DQs. That may seem strange, unless you considerthat it's a close regatta and the stakes are high. Unfortunately, this did not encourage the officials to show restraint. In fact the last few races were riddled with DQs.

I am not going to subscribe to any conspiracy theories, but it seems that if the officials are going to have such an impact on the results then they should be held more accountable. It is up to the clubs to send reps to HCRA meeting to correct some of the problems that were encountered this year. For instances line infractions should not be judgement calls since they can be verified or overruled by video. There are many conscientious HCRA officials who operate with integrity. However, I think some people in the HCRA need to reevaluate their mind set. The race official's role should not be that of the spoiler who imployes over-zealous or questionable calls. Rather the race official should be fostering fair competition and sportsmanship on the race course.

In closing we at Puna hope to come back strong next year, realizing that we have to live with the decisions that were made. I just hope some HCRA officials can live with the decisions that they have made.

Beverly Tuaolo
Puna Canoe Club


#50 Thu, 08/07/2008 - 3:30pm


Thank you Beverly. I feel your pain. There were actually 15 DQ's issued on the day. I cannot complain about our DQ because nearly everyone, me included, saw our Nov. A men knock the flag down. Nobody is going out there intentionally trying to cheat, (I hope). If a canoe is a few inches over the line on the start it is a judgement call on the part of the officials. If the video replay cannot confirm that the call was correct then it is a waste of time to review the video. This is what caused all the delay at the end of the regatta, reviewing video that was not clear enough to show any violations. The whole starting system is flawed and encourages crews to anticipate when the green flag is coming up and to get in an extra stroke or two. The waving yellow flag is pointless and only gets crews edgy. The red flag is also pointless since the green flag comes up while the red flag is going down and nearly every crew starts on red since the green is a split second behind it. All they need to do is raise the yellow flag when they are ready to start and then raise the green a short time later. The starter can (and should) vary the amount of time the yellow is up before the green is raised. Nobody could time the start since they don't know exactly when the green is coming up.


#51 Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:18pm


Wow some pretty interesting with a few references to the Novice A race. Beverly you just inspired me to issue a statement of what transpired for Outrigger's Novice A crew leading into the state race:

In about March 2008, Evan Rhodes contacted me and asked if I could take over the coaching duties for Outrigger's Novice A division. I said Id think about it. A few weeks later he called to press me again & this time I agreed based on not coaching for twelve years and the fact it was Outrigger's 100th year anniversary. First thing I did was familiarize myself on the eligibility rule:
////////////////////////////////////
11. Novice A
Open to any male or female who has not paddled in a 15 Years & Under, 16 Years & Under, 18 Years & Under, Freshmen, Sophomore or Junior race. A paddler may compete in this classification for two years after moving up from Novice B or three years if they have never competed in Novice B. (See Article III.B.5. - Novice Status and Classification.)

Page 6 Section 11

Former paddlers from the 12 Years & Under, 13 Years & Under, 14 Years & Under, 15 Years & Under, 16 Years & Under, 18 Years & Under or Novice categories who have not paddled for a minimum of five (5) years in any regatta or long distance race, and who have never paddled in any Freshmen,Sophomore, or Junior classified event, may petition the Race Director in writing at the time of registration of the paddler with the last year participated, for determination of eligibility to return to paddling as a Novice A. If approved, the former paddler may be classified Novice A up to a maximum of two (2) years.

Page 9 Section 5 Letter c.
///////////////////////////////////

Based on simple math my interpretation:
2008 - 5yrs = 2003
2002 + 5 yrs = 2007

A asked for a specific date from Outrigger and OHCRA because the rule was still ambiguous. No specific date was given to me as I requested but Outrigger told me OHCRA has final say & we need to submit a petition with the registration papers to reclassify prior 18 paddlers to Novice A status for the season which is stated in the rule. I consulted Evan for any leads and he mentioned that a past paddler due to OHCRA ruling had to sit out in 2007 due to racing in 2003, but would be available this year. I figured he was prequalified so I googled & researched the past OCC boys 18 crews of 2003, Another paddler due to my research, was Billy Lawson who had paddled in 2003. I knew him from surfing and gave him a call to roust him into paddling again. I mentioned the fact he probably qualified for Novice A to make sure he was okay with it and he agreed. Billy is 24 years old.

24 yrs old – 5 yrs = 19 yrs old
(spot checking their age requirement against last possible year of boys 18's eligibility of 2003)

I turned in his OHCRA registration papers to Outrigger's front desk listing his last year as 2003 in Boys 18's with the petition for several paddlers. On May 27 OHCRA race director Carol Young approved Billy Lawson, however a paddler from 2004 season was told to sit out another year or race Freshman. Reason I added the 2004 paddler was to validate the difference between 2003 & 2004 which was caught by the Outrigger registrars in an email to Carol.

From: jcyoung76@hotmail.com
To: (email address deleted but to OCC chairperson)
Subject: RE: OCC Novice A Petition
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:24:14 -1000

Approved for Novice A = (name deleted), (name delete), William Lawson Jr.

Carol Young, OHCRA Race Director

The eligibility issue then resurfaced on Friday the day before States while rigging canoes. I received a call and a few Lanikai paddlers were notifying the OCC paddlers they would file a complaint if we raced Billy Lawson. I took this at surface value & figured it was pre-race posturing. I was also informed Lanikai used the same rule to reclassify past 18 paddlers into Novice A when they returned back from the mainland. I shrugged it all off since I had the petition. Later that day I took the Nov. A out to practice walking past the Lanikai tent (next to ours) saying "hellos" to Kalani Irvine, a few others, and shaking Scotty Fretias's hand. No mention of an eligibilty issue to me. We went out and practiced 10 or so turns & called it a day.

At about 9pm an OCC rep calls me who had just gotten off the phone with Kalani Irvine. She informs me Billy has to get pulled because OHCRA now is saying he's ineligible. I argue they cant and ask if OHCRA put it formally in writing. She tells me they don't have too since Kalani is President of OHCRA and had made his decision. My heart sank, I knew the argument reached the pinnacle and he is allowed to make the final decision. I stayed up all night printing the documentation on the crew's eligibility hoping we still had a chance.

8am Saturday the morning of States I was on the phone pleading once again our case to Outrigger to no avail. I wanted to race them & make Lanikai file a complaint & I would submit all the documentation. I was told to just drop it. I said I'd rather scratch the race and save our dignity. The head coach then told me to "not come back" & hung up on me. (whatever that meant)

I went down to Keehi & broke the news to the crew.
END OF STORY.

****My personal comments and strictly my opinions:

-The first few races, Billy sat seat 2 then moved into steering midway into the season. Based on times & their seasons in my opinion, Lanikai & OCC Novice A's were going to have a shootout for the State title, I'd like to think similar to Soph. Men race. In the three races leading to States a combined 5.65 seconds had separated the two crews for victory.

Reason I followed rules from day one is because it would not be fair to take away victories from our hard working competition had we bent rules. I was persistent about requesting a clarification date on the rule prior to the season, Outrigger nor OHCRA could give a viable answer & instead the process has now been deemed worthless. Had they simply said 2002, I would have called Billy next year, however the approved consensus was 2003.

I respect & stand by Kalani's decision, doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Is the rule going to be reworded to 6 years? (2008 – 6 yrs = 2002) or
Is the 5 years rolling to the specific date the paddler last paddled 5 years ago?

Why have other clubs been allowed to use this rule using the same process, but it was changed on our crew?
What's the purpose of any petition if it can be overturned after the season within 24hrs of the Championships? Did Kalani even know about the petition?

If it was an oversight on OHCRA's part (2002 instead of 2003) why didn't they honor their mistake in a timely manner? Why didn't they just let it be & recognize their error?

Why did Outrigger get notified via Lanikai paddlers first?

Why didn't Outrigger back me as a coach or my crew? (And they question why people/coaches leave to paddle elsewhere)

In no way am I attacking Lanikai, OHCRA or any of their members or directors (I guess I need to add OCC to that). If I'm in a position to decide an interpretation in my clubs favor, I wouldn't hesitate. =) Obviously the rule is too vague & will have to specifically better recognize a date.

My parting thought is I don't expect anyone to make sense of all this so don't try, anytime a race's outcome takes place on land & not in the water we must be doing something wrong.

Paul F.
'08 OCC Novice A Coach


#52 Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:36pm


From what I hear, HCRA is always looking for people to help officiate & welcomes extra eyes on the boats and in the tower watching the line, looking for interference, & other infractions. Obviously people are upset about many of the calls that day, but I wonder if there would be equal outcry if those calls were NOT made.

It makes sense to me that there would be more DQs at the state race than at a regular association regatta. Crews tend to be more anxious -- I've heard tons of stories about mistakes in past state races that were purely the result of nerves. Officials probably (hopefully) try to be more vigilant because they know so many people have worked hard to qualify their crews and their job is to ensure fairness and adherence to the rules. That seems like a lot of pressure. Maybe there are some megalomaniacal officials, but I think the conscientious ones (who are hopefully the majority) would probably keep them in check and not allow them to deprive crews and clubs of hard-won points merely for the sake of gratifying their enormous egos.

I was curious about how other sports treat disputes where the video evidence is inconclusive & found lots of precedence for upholding the official's original call: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_replay

I also thought it was interesting that (according to the above link) there are usually rules that determine when instant replay can be used to review a call. I couldn't find anything in HCRA's race rules about instant replay, except that starts and finishes would be tape recorded when possible. Maybe more specific rules would help.


#53 Thu, 08/07/2008 - 9:43pm


Deep Friese,
Your detailed explanation made perfect sense. If the governing body made a mistake in allowing the reclassification, they should have recognized it earlier in the season, not let your crew compete all season and then disallow it the night before states. Seems to me like it was a mistake on their behalf and since they made that bed, they should've slept in it. Sounds like Lanikai was afraid of their competition and wanted it eliminated. That's kinda wussy.


#54 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 6:33am


Just a short comments about our mix open crew disqualification.

It was not a question about be a little too close to the line: The official boat came out to tell the crew to check in for confirmation after the race. The boat holder (not being able to hear) thought he was being warned about the line and actually had the crew back up. The race started almost immediately after they had stopped backing up. Remember they were never in front of the line. So why the DQ?

Why were we never properly informed about the DQ?

Bev


#55 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 8:19am


Oh my God people-
racing for what? 60 cent medals made in China, in disgusting Keehi lagoon?
who cares?
It's no wonder canoe racing in Hawaii has been so suppressed.


#56 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 9:48am


Its not the 60 cent medal, its being able to talk smack for the next 12 months. But in the big scheme of things you're right. Take it seriously, just not too seriously.


#57 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 10:26am


I thought it was about-

Ohana-family
Togetherness
Supporting Team mates
Setting a goal and reaching it
Supporting children
Fitness
Sacrifice
Being outside
Timing
Blend
Precise steering

"Kona Paddler" if you were on one of the winning crews you might have a different perspective.


#58 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 10:42am


That's not what its about,
That's what it should be about.
I've competed almost all my life at one sport or another, and I can get get pretty psycho at times. But I'm the first to admit that what medal you come away with (or don't) doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.
The real competition is with yourself.
How's that for some deep serious shit.


#59 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 11:28am


I think DQ's should only be issued if a team blatantly harms another team, fails the 'NANI CHECK' test, and of course cheats.. . All other situations, a 10-15 sec penalty should just be added to their finish time.

We trained hard, made crazy sacrifices, endured roller coaster rides of emotions, and so much more all season long, only to be disqualified at States because we jumped the green flag.. or because we buried the flag on the turn.. and the such.. Just let 'em paddle.


#60 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 4:18pm


Damn Jibofo, that was some deep shit. Word brutha! The only person/thing/whatever you have to answer to, and that matters, when the day is done is yourself. I know I hardly think about the races I've won, but the one race I think about all the time is when we lost states because our crew screwed around the night before the race.

kikoman, let me get this straight. You think a team shouldn't be DQed for jumping the green flag? Or buried a flag on the turn? So if the team next to you buried the flag and beat you by 0.25 seconds for the state title, you'd be OK with that?

poppoope


#61 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 5:03pm


Im so glad i just stuck to my 1 man.


#62 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 8:59pm


WURD ^^


#63 Fri, 08/08/2008 - 11:55pm


The whole flag thing sucks. Crrews have a hard time watching the flags, it is random as to how fast the flag is raised and lowered- there is no consisitency. The decision as to If a crew goes over the line or not is up to some observer on the beach trying to time their observation with the flag thing. if you are on the outer lanes- even harder to determine. What they need to do is use one flag and raise it to let everyone know that they have to be on the line and ready to go. Then use a gun or horn to sound the start- easier for everyone to key in on a loud sound- officlals and crews- then some distant waving flags.

To have a defective starting system based on subjective opinions and then to hand out DQ's for false starts that are not observable on video and that are a matter of fractions of an inch - is wrong and has led to all the grumbling. It needs to be changed.


#64 Sat, 08/09/2008 - 4:42pm


JAYBIRD
!8s in 2003. 5 yrs. start o4,o5,o6,o7,o8. completion of 2008 is fifth year. Eligible for Nov. A in 2009.
if you were freshman any race even if you got DQ'd you are upper division.

Yup, the race director made an error. She "works" a 50 hour week in season, deals with tons of paperwork, has a bunch of requests like this yearly. No one is more un-biased or "for the paddlers", and she gets paid ooo.oo. Walk a beach in her slippas, if can!

Talk about changes to your clubs and reps. dey da only ones can make'um happen! Aloha


#65 Sun, 08/10/2008 - 3:48pm


Poidog, they purposely make the flag raising inconsistent to prevent people from jumping the gun. Also the large distance between the starter boat and canoes makes a horn or gun impossible. Sound travels too slow and the near canoes will hear the gun/horn way before the farther canoes.

The way I see it is its up to the crew to be disciplined enough to avoid common errors. To me jumping the gun or burying the flags is no ones fault but the crews.


#66 Sun, 08/10/2008 - 5:03pm


And yet another superbly written post with most of the sarcasim missing Poops! I agree with the flag being inconsistent and the reason that it is done that way. It has worked for years and until they invent some laser starting signal in the future that doesn't give anyone an advantage the flags are good.
What we are all witnessing on this thread is the usual complaining about the States regatta but now it is out there for everyone to read. Usually the week after States everyone gossips and complains before and after practice...keeping there ideas between friends and teammates. If the complaints are serious enough the grumbling makes it to that club's Club Rep and at the year end association meeting the Club Rep voices the crew's/ canoe club's issues and it is handled that way. Quietly between the governing associations. Now we have the internet to voice our opinions...it's not just between "friends" anymore. Some bad comes with the good of progress.
Empathy...nuff said.


#67 Sun, 08/10/2008 - 6:27pm


Nope.. In fact poopoo paddler, I'd go over to their tent with a few other earthtone folks, grace them with lovely plumeria leis, join hands and sing Hawaii 78.


#68 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 11:47am


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