I would like to see more iron man races. Do we really need to be making all those open water changes. To me the best part about canoe racing is being in a canoe surfing, chasing bumps and battling it out with your competition. I don't look forward to getting in and out of the canoe over and over again not to mention the escort boat. It seems that all my injuries over the years come from making open water changes.
Their are many things that can go wrong while making changes and I would like to see less emphasis on those kind of races and more iron man races. To me, they (iron races) are just as fun and just as competitive but way easier to run logistically. I would like to see canoe racing events that include multiple iron races like they have in Tahiti. You can have nine person crews and take turns racing but you don't have to make open water changes. Just a thought.
Hoe wa'a mau.
Submitted by jbe on Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:15pm
Here on the Big Island, most of the races are Iron. I think only the Liliuokalani race has changes (in Hawaiian Class Racer division). On O'ahu, my previous club had a crew do the Duke race with two "land" changes at Makai Pier and Spitting Caves. Personally, I'd like to see a marathon relay race in this style. Maybe something like a two part, around O'ahu race.
#1 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:40pm
Or, maybe a triangle (Maui to Lana'i to Moloka'i and back to Maui)
#2 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:43pm
Yea, that is what I'm talking about. There are so many ways to play with a style like that. Like a two or three leg race over a couple or three days. "Land" changes like the OC1 costal relay does, stuff like that would be cool.
#3 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:46pm
Totally, the tri island race. I could be awsome.
#4 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:47pm
It could be awsome, sorry not I could be awsome.
#5 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 1:49pm
IMHO, Iron races are fun but water changes races are also fun. With water changes, the race becomes a different type a race, more of a sprint endurance type race as opposed to strict marathon-type endurance race. Again, both are and should be fun if you train properly for that particular type of racing. Water changes, when done correctly, shouldn't result in too many injuries..of course poopoo happens, but poopoo happens everywhere and not just during hcanges.
#6 Mon, 08/11/2008 - 3:35pm
both are fun. Sea Changes are more tactical imo. It adds another level to the race. Deciding just where exactly to do a change can mean all the difference between winning and losing.
Personally I prefer Iron, just because at the end of the race I know I won or lost based on my own performance and not due to some other factor like a bad change, bad spot for a change or poor crew combination at a vital point. But that's cause I'm more a OC1 person rather than a team player.
Worse feeling in the world is sitting in a boat watching your team lose and not be able to do anything about it. Of course one of the best feelings in the world is sweeping past a crew who's just done a lousy change and stopped dead in the water! :-)
#7 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 6:35am
I agree that the tactics and strategy of making changes can be very fun and influence the outcome of a race but the added risks and expenses can also make it more difficult for the participants. In order to practice open water changes properly means you need an escort boat and that can add expense to a program that not all paddling programs can afford. I'm pretty sure that most all clubs would like to have escort boats at all their practices and dial in their changes but I don't think it is always feasible. Iron races don't have to be like marathons. A 1- 2 hour race is not that long and you can mix it up with more than one race in a day.
I would like to see a better mix of racing styles ie. iron races or costal relays added to the distance season. Less emphasis open water change races I think would give more paddlers the opportunity to participate in distance racing. The Tahitians seem to do quite well with that style of racing.
#8 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 7:21am
Seems like the guys who are good at changes look forward to 9 man season more so than the guys who struggle with changes.
Im one of the sucks hard at changes guys so Im cool with eliminating them.
#9 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 7:51am
Iv'e seen guys that are really good at making changes get knocked out and bloody in mid channel. Rough seas can be unpredictable and dangerous.
When I was younger I thought making mid channel rough water changes was one of the greatest thrills in the sport. Real manly narley cool waterman stuff. Now I'm older and more prone to accidents or just not as flexable as I used to be. I you are good at it great. I just want more choices and more diversity in the sport.
#10 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 11:26am
I just hate sucking at something and having to publicly display how sucky I am:-) Not into the whole unconsious bloody mid channel thing either......especially having recently watched shark week.
#11 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 2:04pm
Speaking of sharks,
nothing beats doing water changes when you can see the shark cage boat with their cage in the water off of Haleiwa as you are racing the Kaena challenge.
#12 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 2:10pm
Yea, if anything will get you into the canoe the shark cage nearby will. That was my best change of the day. Later, my next change I missed my seat (3) but there was no way I was going to get left in the water so I clawed my way back to my seat from five seat. It was not good but I didn't want to meet up with the man in the grey suit. Fun but scary.
#13 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 2:53pm
Always thought those changes were one of the eye-popping items that got us respect.
We weren't just Vanilla paddlers in simply another size/shape boat.
Then I learned there were paddlers who don't paddle when the temperature dipped below 75 degrees. Boy was I disappointed.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#14 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 3:01pm
We've got paddlers here who wimp out when it gets over 100 degrees. Its too hot, its too cold, its too windy, its too dark.
Whatever.
#15 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 3:22pm
There is a whole series of "pre-season" distance races in the spring that don't involve changes. I think they are a ton of fun, but they don't usually draw very big participation numbers.
With the Molokai channel crossing as the ultimate goal for many (most?) of us, change races leading up to it are an essential part of preparation.
I've never been great at changes either... easier to just stay in seat 6 the whole time. ;)
#16 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 4:09pm
The "pre-season" distance races are a lot of fun but it coincides with the OC1 season and your right they don't attract big numbers or the top competition. The most competitive and largest iron race is probably Kona. It is right in the middle of distance season and a good workout in preparation for Molokai. This year there are about five weekends leading up to Molokai that have no race at all (for the men). Two before Kona and three before Molokai. I think an iron race on Oahu could be squeezed in there somewhere.
#17 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 9:58pm
jbe, there IS an iron race before molokai on Oahu...the Big Boy Challenge from Kailua to Hawaii Kai. It is on Sept 6th the day before the women's E Lau Hoe race and is a great chance for a 6 man crew to get some time in the type of water they may see in the channel. The bonus is that if clubs are trailering canoes to Hawaii Kai for the women, they can just take them to Kailua and have the men race there on Sat. then the canoes are all ready to go on Sunday for the women!!! See the post on ocpaddler for more information...I hope to see you there. It is a great race, definitely for those of strong mind and body with a great after party sponsored by Kona Brewing Co in Hawaii Kai. All you can eat buffet, prizes, T-shirts and good cheap beers!!! Can't go wrong.
Enjoy the ride!
#18 Tue, 08/12/2008 - 10:05pm
Thanks drkanupaddler, I missed that one. That sounds like a great race. I'll be there if can I hope. Mahalo!
#19 Wed, 08/13/2008 - 7:35am
We had our first 9 man race last yesterday....anybody else get an injury besides me n my aching rib?
#20 Sun, 08/17/2008 - 8:27pm
A Moloka'i to Oahu 'iron' race in a 200# racing hull design is in our future. Very doable. The active paddling athletes will have to make it happen to show what the sport wants. An escort boat is always necessary for safety, but the changes will be eliminated.
#21 Sun, 08/17/2008 - 8:54pm
About ten years ago some O'ahu paddlers were trying to have an Iron Molokai race which was to take place a week or two before the Hoe, with substantial prize money. OHCRA pretty much squashed the idea, saying that those who participated would DQed from the Hoe.
#22 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 4:11am
aquafiend,
Yeah, my arms feel a little longer than before.
#23 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 5:28am
Jim,
On what grounds? OHCRA doesn't own the Pacific Ocean. People need to stand up to those who unjustly try to rule their lives. Here's the ego thing again.....they aren't promoting it so they don't want someone else to have recognition of so doing. Nor do they want to see their "fishing canoe" race blemished with something that may potentially overtake it. Oh my, they might loose control! Another case of sour grapes, eh Jibofo..........
#24 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 5:48am
Rosehill....I agree...iron race with boats that weigh 200 lbs. with no other restrictions will make a fantastic Iron race, Molokai to Oahu.
To me, this year's Molokai Hoe will be critical. The Lanikai boys will make a good run at the Tahitians. If they do not beat the Tahitians and are not able to keep up with them, then all of Hawaii will need to take a serious look at where we will need to go in order to keep up with the tahitians.
To me, one way is just what this thread is talking about, race like how the tahitians race. Tahiti practice and race with one thing in mind....Hawaiiki Nui. The ultimate in endurance/marathon paddling which is an iron man race. Hawaii, we training for Molokai Hoe, a great race, great traditions, but a race that requires making changes.
So now, when the Tahitians come to Hawaii and paddle in our Molokai Hoe, it's a piece of cake. They spend all year round paddling in iron races, then have to do a race with changes....duck soup.
So, for me, the paddling community will be watching Molokai Hoe very closely.
Here's wishing the Lanikai boys the best. Shoot, if they are able to do it, then I don't know who can....they're loaded.
#25 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 12:19pm
If there aren't any changes during long distance races, when will you peepee?
Hydrating for 2 days+electrolytes+caffeinated power gels+excitement of race+red bull=poopoo peepeeing every 2 minutes.
Its a legitimate concern and needs to be considered.
#26 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 3:11pm
Can we continue calling these races 'iron man' races ?
I think RatchetJaw has a very valid point. I personally like water changes, but I think that more iron man races would improve competitiveness.
Water changes for poopoopaddler every two minutes would seem rather frequent and possibly return the competitive edge to the Tahitians.
Lanikai paddling is fabulous this year, men and women.
#27 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 9:44pm
I dont think we should mimic everything Tahitians do but we also shouldnt use out of date designs in the name of tradition. Its been said before but even back in the day they strived for progress. I dont see how "tradition" holds up as an argument. Enjoying, practicing, and promoting the sport keeps it alive. A couple hundred years ago did they even race?? If not are we doing wrong by racing since its not tradition?? Come on!
#28 Mon, 08/18/2008 - 11:26pm
Agreed - I'm sure we'd find that canoe racing has been around ever since the second canoe was built. In fact, that was probably one of the drivers for it.
W/respect to water changes and the Molokai Hoe and other c/o races, the rules are/have been the same for everyone. The obvious fact is that they have the conditioning, they've learned to surf, and they've combined the best of their best.
When our paddlers want to challenge them in an iron format, the HNV is the current proving ground, though some local interisland or coastal-combo iron race would be good as well.
Here's to Lanikai and all teams that strive to be the "best of the best". In the end, it's all good for the sport - the rest of us will cheer for you as we chase you on the horizon. Geev'em!
#29 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 6:51am
If there was an option to race "Iron" in a 9 man race....even if it was a little shorter distance and started after the 9 man crews......I'd rather do the iron. I wonder what the ratio is to those that prefer "Iron" as oppose to those who prefer 9 man. Speaking of which, how did 9 man come to be in Hawaiian paddling but not in Tahitian?
#30 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 9:02am
Buy or borrow "Moloka'i - Oahu through the years" by Pete Caldwell and all will be revealed.
Cheers Rambo
#31 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 11:03am
I think that Molokai was and iron event in the beginning. I'm sorry to say but I think that 9 man racing came to Hawaii because it is easier. I'm not sure but I think that the "Hawaiians" designed their canoes for navigating and surviving open ocean crossings and for fishing. If they wanted to design a canoe purely for racing I think they would have designed something a bit different. Sure you can race a "Hawaiian" canoe but I don't think that was the original intent. If you want to perpetuate the Hawaiian culture then you should take your canoe out and go fishing, diving and sailing. Racing the canoe doesn't really follow the intended use of the original design. Don't get me wrong, I love racing canoes (and fishing, diving and sailing) but we can still improve, change designs and try new things without abandoning our past.
#32 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 11:33am
On the other hand, if a race is considered a classic, like the Monte Carlo -- started for Formula One racers in 1929 -- why attempt to change it when you can start the Daytona 500 -- for stockcars -- somewhere else?
It is not as if there is only one format for races and people cannot chose the races they wish to enter. Actually I think folks enjoy the variety.
It is the format of one of the best know races you don't like. It is easy enough to vote with your feet (or paddle).
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#33 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 3:02pm
I always do Molokai and always will. I love variety and I want more. I vote with my head and my heart. My feet get me to the beach.
#34 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 3:18pm
I like the direction this forum is going and I think Bill Rosehill has been ahead of his time for years.We need to expand our horizons as paddlers, builders, and as Hawaiians,(or those that love polynesian culture).Let's use the things we've been taught to develope our sport. Maybe then we'll get a shot at making this an olympic sport. Damn; if they can allow some girl with toilet paper on a stick to do a sumersault for olympic glory...or now someone on a trampoline. Didn't they just do that on the floor exercise, but without the bounce?
In regards to how the associations/regattas are run:After the fiasco at states, it's obvious there needs to be some house cleaning. Rumor is there are disgruntled clubs/paddlers that want to create a new association because of the status quo.
There needs to be options outside of "ah junk 6-man...I goin paddle oc-1" Really, oc-1 is simpler, and look how the technology has been evolving. The specs should not be locked into "the malia mold".Keep the manu if tradition is the issue,but think outside the box/canoe.( I hate that saying, sorry)
Build a bunch of superlight oc-6's &3's, establish some rules/specs,have it stand for 5 years, reevaluate the results, then establish another set of rules/guidelines and carry on. You can sell the older canoes to clubs for practice or donate to school programs (maybe for tax breaks???)
My preference would be for Molokai iron.
wut you tink?
#35 Tue, 08/19/2008 - 4:42pm
The open water change with escort boats is the dangerous part of this sport. Otherwise canoe paddling is not that dangerous. Most of the injuries in canoe paddling happen during open water changes. Do the Tahitians make crew changes during canoe races?
#36 Sun, 10/10/2010 - 8:03pm
water changes separate the men from the boys. they add a level of strategy that is lost in a marathon run, they also allow a crew to surf more effectively throughout the entirety of a race, & overall your boat gets to finish in a faster time.
that said, the option of an Iron division at these 9 man races would be nice. There are lots of guys who are afraid of sharks and/or don't want their friends to know they are leg-hookers.
#37 Mon, 10/11/2010 - 10:59am
Just the opposite Salty. Water changes make doing a long race easier and more dangerous. I believe Molokai was originally an iron race. Water changes make a race more expensive and the probability of injuries much higher. The first change in Molo is very dangerous. Thank god nobody got killed.
Best wishes and prayers to Luke!
#38 Mon, 10/11/2010 - 12:43pm
No need to make all races iron. 9 man molokai is a great event.
Start the race later, say 9 am. This will eliminate the glare on the water and make visibility better for all.
Start the race in 2 heats. This will eliminate the congestion at the start, as well as the first change. A club's 3rd, 4th, 5th, or even 50's and 60's crews don't need to start with the top 40 competitors.
Unfortunately, there will always be accidents, but race officials should do their best to correct errors and make improvements to minimize risks whenever and wherever possible.
Race officials, Paddlers, Coaches, and Escort Boat Drivers should always be looking on how to improve all aspects of the event.
Paddlers, Escort Boat Drivers, and Coaches should provide meaningful and constructive feedback to race officials. No whining, no complaining, just good honest thoughts on how to improve things.
#39 Mon, 10/11/2010 - 2:36pm
Paddling is a water sport.
#40 Mon, 10/11/2010 - 2:53pm
Personally, I prefer not to make changes. I dislocated my shoulder once in practice and once on the second change in Molo. Rehab is a bitch and a shoulder is never really the same after that. I feel for Peter and I hope he heals well. You can recover from that kind of injury and paddle fast again but making changes puts your shoulders in harms way every time. I wish we could find a better (easier) way to make changes.
#41 Mon, 10/11/2010 - 9:04pm