So Ive been wondering........
Imagine a hull that was designed fuller on the right (reserve buoyancy for stability) and designed to ride at a (just guessing at this point) 10 degree cant/lean to the right side. In other words it would be designed to actually ride with stability (relatively speaking) with the ama out of the water. Not being much of an OC1 paddler and especially a bump rider, what do those who are good on the OC1 think of a canoe hull that would.....in theory......give a more stable ride with the ama out?
Submitted by aquafiend65 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:10am
You would go round in circles.
#1 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 11:01am
"more satble with the ama out"
?????
What would be the reason for having a 'ama then ?
#2 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 11:24am
why not design a surfski with the seat leaning at an angle....so you can paddle leaning on one side... then you can take out the ama altogether but still imagine that you're flying the ama... you can also sell it to chiropractors as a scoliosis fix, or as a way to increase their business..
#3 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 4:56pm
Please don't take away this simple pleasure. As a matter of fact, i'm waiting for the day when i get interviewed and they ask me .. "Why do you Paddle"... and in my best Nappy voice i'll say .... "because i like a sore ass"
Cheers Rambo
#4 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 5:23pm
The ral problem is stability because we paddle on water and the water is moving below the hull.
So why not paddle on the ground ? No need for a ama then...
#5 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 5:40pm
stop the presses.. screw oc1 or v1... I just discovered the ultimate design pinnacle of outrigger design. and shawn michael no longer has to experiment with the SUP.. he can do it all on this one vessel. draw horse heads on the front of the boat and it'll just be so sexy.
http://www.wavewalk.com/
#6 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:05pm
If you were suggesting an asymmetrical hull for the reason to provide lift then you might have a case. But Traditional Proa sailing hulls are aggressively asymmetrical along their length, and often curved in such a way as to produce lift to counteract the lateral forces of the WIND, as we don't have sails nor are driven by wind, symmetrical hulls will do fine thank you.
Cheers Rambo
#7 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:12pm
In fact Rambo, we ARE sometimes driven by wind...
#8 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:16pm
Ok, so I didnt really convey what is in my mind......
The idea is a hull that would lift the ama easier and ride more stable, because of the asymmetry, with the ama out of the water.......not a hull that would keep the ama out at all times. For instance, if the hull is at its most efficient when it sits at 0 degrees, but it gets kicked over to a 10-15 degree when you fly the ama, and you wanna get the ama up out of the water as much as possible....right?......
It would still be ama reliant. Make sense?
Rambo, why would it go in circles?
#9 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:21pm
I'm thinking this might be more Shawn's size??
.
.
#10 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:22pm
We already have an Asymmetrical hull when we fly ama as it tilts the hull when we do this, and some of us use this effect to increase rocker presented to the water by the sides of the hull and to plane on the bow "flat "side" of the hull to scoot over swells.
Also the reason we quite often snap off the front 2 ft of the canoe.
Cheers Rambo
#11 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:31pm
Aqua said" Rambo, why would it go in circles"
Because same as tilting a Va'a rudderless to make it turn. One of the techniques to keep a Va'a tracking in a straight line, is to lean it left or right thus increasing the waterline length on one side. The result is a turn left or right. Think airplane wing or foil or rudder for that matter.
Cheers Rambo
#12 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 6:50pm
http://www.wavewalk.com/
Jackpot!!! I'm getting one of those!!!
#13 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 7:29pm
The wavewalker has an awful bow wave as shown in the video.
You go in circles because the water has to travel a longer distance on the bulging side of the hull in the same time, that means it has to travel faster. This creates a lower pressure and a pressure gradient across the hull. The boat is sucked/pushed into a curve.
Hiro C's solution is not bad; many people do this already by placing their canoe safely into the backyard or into their garage - no more stability problems, chaffing etc.. Even the crew selection hassles are done and over with.
#14 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 7:39pm
Dacho, can you imagine a Dome Run on one of those things????
Cheers Rambo
#15 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 7:51pm
Dacho, can you imagine a Dome Run on one of those things????
only in a leopard print thong and crocodile dundee hat...
#16 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 8:07pm
Standard Aussie LifeGuard attire ... !!!
Rambo
#17 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 8:14pm
best surfin' footage i be havin' ereseen. ERE!
.wavewalk.com/
#18 Sun, 08/24/2008 - 10:16pm
When the America's Cup races first began, a well known boat designer named Herreshoff warned that racing could cause "freaks" to evolve. That is, boats that were so attuned to racing that they were good for nothing else. The rule in the early years was participating boats had to be used in the fishing industry for a year.
That rule went by the boards and recently an America's Cup boat broke apart during a race because it was so impractically and fragilely designed.
I've always thought an outrigger canoe with a rudder that could not be easily beached approached impracticality. The Tahitians have rudderless OC-1's that are more practical as boats, but less desirable as to manueverability and speed. The Tahitian boat does hold to tradition and origianl purpose. Can you imagine the Polynesians, who built outrigger canoes to go from island A to island B, building a boat that couldn't be beached in surf? That is what we've done, we've taken a boat that had a particular strong point and techno-souped it up to eliminate that strong point.
An outigger canoe whose ama never tastes salt water to me reaches the pinnacle of freakishness and clearly the whole idea is speed above all things.
Really what needs to be done is fill the ama with helium and trail it to one side like a balloon. This boat would be a surfski with a vestigial Polynesian ornament on its side.
Gentlemen, we've been had. Marketing will eventually have us paddling something unrecognizable as an outrigger within Oceania.
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#19 Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:15am
A V1 doesn't work in windward Hawaiian conditions, the rudder is a necessary adaptation.
I don't believe in 'tradition'; people will chose what they see as most beneficial; if it matches what was in the past, they will call it traditional and praise their own adherence to those traditions.
If it does not match, they will call it out of date, go with the new stuff and praise themselves for being innovative.
I suppose you are driving a car. Being traditional you may have to walk.
#20 Mon, 08/25/2008 - 1:11pm
A V1 won't work, really? Really? No one in Hawaiian ever paddled a small outrigger by himself? Never? They weren't seaworthy?
So why have an outrigger at all? There are faster boats that either 1 person or 6 persons can paddle.
It is tradition to paddle. Paddling is retro. Paddling is consciously self-limiting.
With the internal combustion engine you don't need to paddle at all. Wouldn't an outboard on a rhib be more "innovative?" I know there are races down around Florida that permit you to raise a sail when you paddle...if engines are going too far.
When we race we confine our races to outriggers. Doesn't that show a slavish adherence to tradition in and of itself. We should let all boats in, that would allow for innovation using your logic.
I'm getting a six man civilian cigarette boat or a SOC Mk V for Molokai and I'm going to let you argue for innovation on my behalf.
Should I make my downpayment or wait until 2009?
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#21 Mon, 08/25/2008 - 5:24pm
this ties in nicely with the discussion on the limitations on canoe design in hawaii- how that is supposedly in place to preserve "tradition". That discussion was very interesting, and one point that was made (i think by Hiro) was that in hawaii, the oc1's aren't limited by "tradition", but the oc6 is .. in tahiti, the reverse where the v6 has more design innovation but the v1 is limited....
i don't think anyone would argue that a rudderless canoe would handle the channel better than a oc1... i'm sure it can be done, but WHY? to say you did it without a rudder? for ego's sake? for tradition?.. i'd rather have the rudder and bomb away. i'm sure if the hawaiian paddlers 200 years ago were here now, they would love a carbon fiber vacuum bagged ruddered canoe to paddle in the channel... oh wait, they are here... and guess what they're paddling? and who cares if a ruddered canoe is "beachable" or not- when is that ever a criteria? i pick it up and carry it up the beach.. if you want a beachable canoe, then get your adze and start hacking away at a log- there's tradition for ya.
saying that paddling should either stay in the past or get a cigarette boat is a lame argument, sorry. there's such a huge space in between where paddling can still stay true to its heritage and still take advantage of advances.
#22 Mon, 08/25/2008 - 7:15pm
Ah, so what we are saying is we're for innovation so long as it is what WE are comfortable with.
The innovation must not be too far outside our realm of experience and something we, the insiders/the competitors, can exploit.
And the end product should look vaguely like an outrigger canoe so we can bandy about the word "tradition" if it serves our needs.
So what if someone comes up with a design that has a sliding seat of some sort that brings legs into play as well as arms, back and stomach?
Would that be acceptable innovation?
~~~~~~~~~~
YankeeHo'okele
"Anyone can steer the ship when the sea is calm" - Syrus Publilius
#23 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 2:37am
Time out....................
Correct me if Im wrong, but tradition would be to keep the ama on the water as a stabilizer. So anyone who "flys" the ama is being innovative or whatever......Im just guessing, but its been the addition of composites to outrigger that has even allowed the purposeful "flying" of the ama. No?
Alls Im getting at is the simple concept of the boat/hull being in a more natural nuetral postion with the ama up. The idea is NOT to always have ama up, its a question of speed and hydrodynamic efficiency. If youre trying to get the dang thing up anyway, why not have a canoe that helps and runs better with the ama up. It'd still be tippy, still require skill and still be beyond my reach, but it'd make the fast guys even faster and Im curious to know just how fast an oc1 can go. All those opposed to making it easier to fly the ama have to consider that alot of tuning and design goes into making current oc1's easier to pop and fly the ama. So if the goal is to get it up and ride it that way as often as possible (who's gonna run with that quote?) then why not a hull that is designed to run that way?
Rambo, I see what youre saying. But isnt the problem of running in circles only applicable to a symmetric hull being tilted? If the hull runs straight and true with the canoe tilted to the right 10-15 degrees it would eliminate the unequal pressure and propensity to turn. Right?
#24 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 6:16am
I don't see anything wrong with changing a design that is barely 25 years old. And you don't have to wait for the marketers to change it, you can/and should - imo - do it yourself.
If you want to 'freeze' a certain design in order to honor the past, why not ? You might call it 'traditional' outrigger canoe.
A sliding or rotating seat would be acceptable, why not ? You might call this the 'open' outrigger class.
Indeed, the V1 doesn't work on the windward side. Otherwise people would use it.
The Hawaiian OC 1 tradition is to have a rudder under your one man canoe.
#25 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:48am
If the transvers hull shape is symmetrical in a 10 degree tilt position then the canoe will run straight
#26 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:51am
Piece of cake to create an OC with permanently flying ama --
continue the logical line of Germanic/industrial American innovative thinking in Hawaiian OC development. Just stick some carbon fishing poles at 45 deg. up on the left side (for traditions sake) of a surfski, with a real "puffy" inflatable ama attached. Ama is filled with helium so that the outrigger effectually adds no weight to the 6Kg ski but works a treat as a downwind sail.
Paddling with one of those innovative double blades is the only hitch to the legality of such an outrigger, because OC 1 paddling lawmakers are strangely happy to stifle innovation in favour of tradition at whim..... or does stiffling innovation become justified because ancient Polynesians did not use carbon wing blades?
#27 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 10:46am
Ama can be a huge liability in the ocean, especially on a rough day. It can be your friend if you learn the skill to use it or it can be an anchor for the inexperienced.
No doubt about it, the paddler who has the least amount of water in contact with his Ama has a distinct advantage.
Try running you hand through the water next time you're at speed and feel the resistance.
Surely you Pegasus owners out there enjoy the sound of the continuous slapping that fat popping Ama makes, i love it. It means it's "getting air".
I thought "paddling" was tradition, not what type of craft you choose.
Cheers Rambo
#28 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 12:45pm
Speaking of Ama's; Eckhart, I have read in a previous post about a custom ama, can you PM me with your email so we can discus?
Thanks in advance...
#29 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 3:39pm
Tilting a boat on its side doesn't necessarily make it turn, it just reduces waterline and makes it easier to turn. This is demonstrated when paddling an open northern-woods type canoe. If you're paddling solo it's often best to kneel and snug up to one side of canoe, tilting it to desired angle and paddling away. Doing this can make an 18' wood & canvas Prospector model turn on a dime. While it's been awhile since I paddled them, I don't remember any natural tendencies to turn as long as I was paddling well. I'm not good enough [yet] to paddle consistently while flying ama (I'm limited to a few cautious strokes or just bracing while at speed) so I can't meet you there, so you may have me at that...
Yank, before categorizing something as "im"practical, we first must define the practical usage of such. Therefore, a modern day OC1 is essentially a combination fun/racing craft built for utmost efficiency and speed; every element of design & construction driven towards this is practical, for its intended use. A rudder is very practical, especially in honkin' winds and down mountain runs. So you don't wanna be dragging a carbon OC1 on the sand and for sure you'd have one pissed off Tahitian if you dragged his V1 up on the beach... Tradition is what you make it; can be limiting, can be liberating or just plain cool to do well what others did well many, many years ago, especially if you can improve on a few things to suit your needs that weren't the particular needs of the paleo-paddlers...
BTW, Nat Herreshoff WAS a freak...those designs he put out of his Bristol boatyard were far ahead of his time.
#30 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 5:01pm
Chineboy, have you paddled an V1? If so you would have noticed a weight shift left or right (lean) is a technique for keeping the canoe in a straight line. Lean left V1 goes right, lean right, V1 goes left.
We are talking about OC1 or V1 here not Indian/Canadian amaless canoes.
Check out this skillful paddler if you like Canadians etc.
Cheers rambo
#31 Tue, 08/26/2008 - 8:16pm
"Tilting a boat on its side doesn’t necessarily make it turn, it just reduces waterline"
Chineboy I may be wrong, but I dont think thats true. The water line will change when tilting (unless youre on a perfect cylinder), but the displacement remains the same. In otherwords, if the weight of you and your boat equal 225#'s, then no matter what the angle of the boat, you will always displace the same amount of water and thereby have the same a mount of drag. Granted, you may change the waterline to be longer or shorter, but it will also be narrower or wider accordingly. True?
#32 Wed, 08/27/2008 - 8:34am
Yer probably right Rambo....I jumped to conclusion based on experience from long ago in a different craft because there's always connections even when slight... But that's what posting's all about eh? Writing jackass comments then backing up with bullshit for flavor. Never had V1 experience [yet] so I wouldn't know how "body english" would make such a difference but that might be more efficient than the drag created by steering stroke. The lean-to-right-to-turn-left technique worked on big daggerboarded windsurfers in the 'ol days so maybe for V1's too. I should drop rudder on my OC1 and do some paddling to check it out. Intuitively though I would think leaning to left would create greater ama drag thus pulling V1 to left but again, all my V1 talk is armchair talk. Nice vid; those folks have alotta time on their hands to be playing syncronized paddling.
Aquafiend: right, I meant reduces waterline with respect to length only so better word would have been "shortened waterline." Never thought about what you're suggesting though; say if you lay an egg sideways on water and measure total waterline then tip it straight up and down and get it to float (lets assume you could balance it) then measure that waterline, I believe you're stating both waterlines (total length) will be identical, just different shape.
#33 Wed, 08/27/2008 - 11:55am
No, the water lines would be different but the displacement would be the same. When you put a mass into the water it will move or displace the same weight/volume of water as that thing which you are putting into the water. So if I were to take a telephone pole and stand it on end and put it into the water it will displace the same amount as when it is laid lengthwise in the water. The two waterlines are vastly different but the amount of water being moved/displaced is exactly the same. So the area/volume of telephone pole that sits beneath the water is actually exactly the same as well.....just very different shape
#34 Wed, 08/27/2008 - 12:12pm
Eureka ! said Archimede in his bath...
#35 Wed, 08/27/2008 - 1:33pm