OK, Ive learned an insane amount of information on ocpaddler about hydrating, what to eat before, after, blah blah blah. Im curious now, for those of you who train a little more seriously than others and try to take in more calories, fat, carbs, etc, what types of foods/meals work for you? Its hard to take in enough calories eating lighter, healthier foods and too much heavy, high calorie food makes me feel sluggish. If your into nutrition youll know what im asking. Just looking for thoughts, suggestions, ideas.
Thanks
Submitted by jpi92109 on Sat, 09/27/2008 - 11:48pm
As there are some crossfitters lerking here, I will point out the excellent nutritional articals in the crossfit journal. You can scroll down and look at the short video clips on nutrition.
Though there is some variation I have come to believe a "paleo zone" diet is very good for controlling the hormonal climate inside the body. This is basic meals of lean meats, fruits, vegitables, nuts, seed and certain oils in a 30/40/30 ratio. Before and after training, you "zig" your carbohydrate needs up so you bracket your training with needed carbs (higher carbs before and after training, that is when you can eat the bad stuff while to glycogen in low) and then when you are inactive you "zag" back down to the basic lean meat fruit and vegitables and stuff like macadamia nut oil, virgin olive oil, fish oils etc. So eating this way you get a ton of antioxidants and phytonutrients from all the greens, a lot of fiber, great control of glucogon/insulin and your essential fats. If you really want to get crazy and weigh your food, you can get amazing results.
I have probably taken a few thousand blood sugars for patients over the last decade and you can see well a meat fruit/vegitable diet in the zone ratio controls insulin and how bad the sugar/refined grain diet is.
#1 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 3:40am
These simple concepts should work:
Short chain sugars are taken up quickly and raise your blood sugar quickly. For long chain sugars this is more delayed.
In response to your rising bloodsugar level your insulin levels will rise. This is necessary to transport and process the sugars.
There is one caveat: the insulin 'digests' your bloodsugar, iow it will lower your bloodsugar level. Too low and your performance suffers. Solution: when you eat sweet stuff, also eat some not so sweet stuff; the latter is taken up slower and will give the insulin something to work with: your bloodsugar level will not be too low.
I don't remember the exact amounts, so please google for this.
- potassium is lost rather quickly, thus you need to know how much you need per hour and replace it.
- magnesium is not lost quickly and you likely have enough storage if you eat a daily vitamin pill. If concerned you can eat a few magnesium pills. Just look up what the limit should be. There is no 'bigger is better' here.
Mix one extra bottle with water and add salt, a few teepoons (make sure that you can still drink it :)).
Make sure to drink with discipline: 1 bottle/hour. Don't drop this schedule when you see Portlock - you will regret it two miles later.
Proteins: Personally I add proteins towards the second half of the race with the idea to limit muscle breakdown a little bit. That is just my own concept, not sure that there is any science behind it.
If you think that I forgot something here, please add it on. A lot of marketing with a lot of products is going on, it's obviously about money.
I have added this post on my blog for future reference and will add some info about potassium/magnesium.
#2 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 11:21am
I found a chart that compares nutrition supplies - added it to the blog.
Perpetuum is not in the chart, but the chart gives you a good idea of what's going on and what the differences are.
#3 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 2:01pm
If you can't pick it or kill it, don't eat it. I like tuna, peanut butter, lettuce, broccolli, and protein shakes while training. I feel that when youre training hard there's no need to get super uptight about amounts of fat. Its more important to get the calories as long as the food is nutritious.
Oh BTW: the list of food above give you some good poopoo and puffpuffs. People around me hate it...
#4 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 2:40pm
I'll have you eating Vegemite yet PooPoo, you need your Vitamin B.
Rambo
#5 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 2:57pm
And one for ...guess who??? ..hehehe
.
Rambo
#6 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 3:16pm
Chineless bottle ? Must be a chinese made copy of the original !
#7 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 3:23pm
Alan C has a different view of hydration for race which got me thinking...here is a quote from his strategy for hydration during all out racing conditions
"Here is a quick guide for what you can expect physiologically as you dehydrate. For reference I am about 85 kg (185-190) lbs and I know I can loose up to 3-4 liters/hr when racing hard in xc-skiing, triathlon, running or cycling it is all about the same. Paddling may be slightly less, but it will still be over 2-3 liter/hr.
The performance losses due to dehydration are huge and have been quoted as being between 3-5% per 1% body mass lost. In a paddling race, preventing even a 1% loss in performance is enough to make me pay attention!
In high performance endurance sports- hydration is key. The bad press caused by over-hydration is impacting many recreational athletes through fear of hyponatremia (low blood sodium). Hyponatremia requires a very dedicated campaign of super hydration usually in excess of 4 liters of fluid per hour for many hours on end, while at rest. That's tough to do. The risks of dehydration are much more real and can have much just as serious health consequences."
additionally your hydration needs will increase with bodysize. I dont think I could carry that much water but as all of Alans other stuff has been so spot on I am trying to up my intake and see if it helps.
Even though I am not doing anything noteworth I think that I need all the help I can get....for some guys Everest is on 12000 ft :)
#8 Sun, 09/28/2008 - 5:02pm
Alan does not suggest to drink 3 - 4 liters/hour during exercise, you would likely need an infusion to achieve that amount of fluid uptake.
You may lose 3 - 4 hours during the first hour; I would expect the rate to drop after that: example - you don't quite lose 10 - 12 kg body weight during a three hour paddle.
The rate of possible fluid uptake per hour is limited by your gastro-intestinal system: stomach passage rate, intestinal absorption etc.
Hyponatremia: you may remember that ingestion of distilled water can kill a person - because it does not contain any salts/electrolytes.
If you replace your fluid losses with liquids that do not contain sufficient amounts of salts - NaCl - sodium chloride - table salt - is the most important one, then you run the risk of hurting yourself.
The 'free' ( = water without salt ) water will dilute the salt contents in your body fluids and accelerate the chance of hyponatremia.
If you replace up to 1 gram of salt/hour - in solid food or in liquids - this is most likely not going to happen.
If you drink huge volumes of bottled water while not replacing any salt losses you will provoke hyponatremia, and, under certain circumstances, this hyponatremia will be severe and relevant; eg the paddler in seat three that starts to steer the canoe or worse.
It is not the fluid volume, but the volume/salt balance that matters.
#9 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:45am
yuck Rambo, I may as well smear poopoo on my bread. yuck.
#10 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:53am
Very tastey stuff, The green bottle even matches my Fuze.
#11 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:27am
Alan C reports very clearly that he took 6 liters of liquids on 3 hour races. I will post the url if anyone wants to read the whole thing. I did not make this up it is just copy paste and he makes his hyponatrima comments in my post.
As Alan has been a great resource here I thought I would post his thoughts.
#12 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:13pm
http://ultramarathonpaddling.blogspot.com/
click on hydration and fueling, see Alan C's artical "Rehydrate and Refuel:
I try to be very careful with my references and quotes and I would not have posted this if it was not clear and from a reputable source. Alan says above you can lose 2L an hour during paddling which is less that xcskiiing but follow that guideline for his own race hydration...and I guess he has a lot of victories under his belt
"Lesson learned on the dehydration and electrolyte depletion, especially reading that Alan started the race with 6 liters! I would be curious, though, to hear a detailed physiological explanation on why the joints lock, cramps occur, and stiffness lingers for days afterward."
#13 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:15pm
Interesting artical under "innovations" about Think Kayak on same site, check it out.
#14 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 8:13pm
That makes 2l/hour , not 3 - 4l/hour - that is probably the maximum that you can do.
If you lose 6 kg body weight during a three hour paddling session then you should try to replace it.
My own experience: I don't lose that much.
The key issue is to keep your salt concentration balanced.
Per liter fluid loss due to transpiration individuals lose between 0.5 - 1 gram of salt.
Example: lost 2.5 kg weight during performance over time x, will replace 2.5 liters next time and add up to 2.5 grams of table salt spread out during time x.
Water and salt go together.
Osmotic pressure: you can't hold water without particles, in this case salt.
#15 Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:17pm
Eckhart - In your opinion, does Cytomax cover your needs for minerals, such as sodium, during 1-3 hour paddles? I know there are other things needed for longer paddles than cytomax but as far as sodium and electrolytes in general is more what im asking.
Thanks for all the great info guys
#16 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:56am
I like to drink cytomax and eat cliff bars if I`m going no more than 4 hours .
For bigger distances I start to take on Avacado and Cheese sandwiches smeared with Mayo . The calories are huge and the fuel burns well.
Late in the day , after 60 or so miles a room temp large coffee and a chocolate milk shake hit the spot for me.
I like the coffee room temp to avoid cooking my tonsils on the way down the hatch.
#17 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:36am
Oh wow! My idea of long is 3 to 4 hours at this point. But thanks for the input on the cytomax. And I can stomach clif bars and paddle so thats good too. I know this sounds bad but I am going to have to try the avo and cheese with mayo sandwich before a race sometime. Ive never heard of that before but its just a mountain of calories - perfect. Thanks....I think.
#18 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:51am
If I might jump in on this subject.....
There are many good electrolyte replacement products including a whole new crop of tablets that have popped up over the past few years, but many others as well.
Sodium, Calcium, Magnesium, Potassium, and Manganese among others in that order of amount, should be present for a well rounded electrolyte profile. Do some research as to why they are important and in what ratios.
The bottom line is everyone is different, what works for you might not work for the rest of your crew, and usually doesn't. As you can see from the slew of recipes people have posted.
As far as electrolytes go, ask yourself, did I cramp at all and if so how severe? Cramping is USUALLY the first indicator and the most debilitating consequence of electrolyte depletion. If you don't cramp I would say don't change anything, or at least keep the ratio of fluid intake and electrolytes the same.
How do you find out what works?
You train and experiment with all of your nutritional supplementation. However, be aware! When you experiment you should only change one thing in your nutrition schedule. I.E. one variable. If you change more than that you will never know what caused your end result from that training run. I have many times deduced what caused what by changing one thing at a time, and repeating the change just to make sure. It is a slow process, but with time and patience you should have success. Remember also, you don't always have to find that all in one product. Sometimes a combination of carb/elec, carb/elec/protein etc. can make for an unreal mix that tastes good, mixes good, performs good, and allows YOU to fine tune YOUR needs. I used to use Cytomax, but now I mix all separate nutritional components into one. It's not rocket science but measure carefully, to get the best results. A little practice goes a long way.
The key is everyone is different, so it is impossible for CYTOMAX to work to the optimal level for everyone, it just doesn't work that way.
Good luck and have fun, hope this helped.
Here's to not bonking!
#19 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 1:59am
Unless the race is over 4 hours the high fat, high calorie stuff won`t serve you well .
Only when your body is into fat burning mode will it help you go long...
So , my advice for races under 3 or 4 hours would be to stick with the electrolite drink of your choice and the solid food of your choice . For me it`s Cliff Bars .
#20 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:03am
Not even if you ate something like that a good 6 to 8 hours before?
#21 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:11am
Huki - Thanks for all the great info. I have used cytomax before and it seemed fine. I dont really like the strong sugar taste in gatorade anymore and ive read so much about the importance of the electrolytes as compared to a sugars only type of drink like gatorade. I guess my question then is do you think an electrolyte drink is more important than a sugar only drink like gatorade for lets say a 2 to 3 hour run?
Thanks again for the info
#22 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:17am
Cytomax has 40 mg salt / 8 ounces. ( see chart in my blog if interested to compare )
You would need to consume 160 ounces for 800 mg of salt per hour.
I don't know Cytomax - would 160 ounces/hour work ?
Whatever people decide to do:
The fluid/salt balance is more important imo - to avoid hyponatremia = low salt concentration in your blood.
Short term you need to replace sodium and potassium, if you do daily endurance you should also start thinking about magnesium.
Sugar: sweet = immediate action, high insulin levels;
neutral taste = delayed action, less agressive insulin response.
There is a lot of individual variation and everyone should take what works for them.
However, the 'salt'-issue is the one that can cause problems; better to call it 'salt' rather than 'fluid' replacement.
#23 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 3:27pm
That fuze drink is good. They tell you it's $1.99, but when you get to the counter, it's $2.49. Extra shipping charges.
#24 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 4:36pm
Jp
Eckhart nailed pretty good with....
Whatever people decide to do:
replace the calories that you are burning = sugars
make sure your fluid/salt ratio remains balanced = salt
Salt here being electrolytes. You need a good balance of caloric intake and electrolyte replacement. Which one has more consequences if depleted? Thats a tough one. Being low on calories can slow you down for sure, but low electrolytes can give you intense loss of normal motor functions, cramps, among other things. No fun. So in terms of a sports drink for a 2 to 3 hour run, I would try to find one with sugars and electrolytes. My friend's only supplementation for any training run/race is watered down powerade and he is the fastest paddlerboarder in Hawaii. I could never maintain on that fuel only, so go figure.
#25 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 6:37pm
e02060! that was all time.
#26 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 7:06pm
e02060, it took me a second but thats friggin hilarious.
#27 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:25pm
Ahhhhh we just had this discussion in our class so I hope you guys won't mind that I share what we talked about. It was interesting to read the following...
jpi92109 quote: I guess my question then is do you think an electrolyte drink is more important than a sugar only drink like gatorade for lets say a 2 to 3 hour run?
Huki quote: low electrolytes can give you intense loss of normal motor functions, cramps, among other things. No fun. So in terms of a sports drink for a 2 to 3 hour run, I would try to find one with sugars and electrolytes. My friend’s only supplementation for any training run/race is watered down powerade and he is the fastest paddlerboarder in Hawaii.
Huki and jpi92109, I've always chosen Gatorade over PowerAde because Gatorade (110 mg) contains twice the amount of sodium as PowerAde (55 mg) - below is the info on both.
Nutritional profile of PowerAde Versus Gatorade
PowerAde: serving size 8 fl oz; calories 70; fat 0g; sodium 55mg; potassium 30mg; total carbs 19g; sugars 15g; protein 0g; vitamin b6 10%; vitamin b12 10%; niacin 10%
Gatorade: 8 fl oz; calories 50; total fat 0g; sodium 110mg; potassium 30mg; total carbs 14g; sugars 14g
Huki, your paddleboard friend uses watered down PowerAde means he must be replenishing less electrolytes during the race.
We had this whole debate in our class about the causes of skeletal muscle cramping. Most if not all parties involved in the discussion brought up electrolyte (Sodium, Potassium, Chloride) imbalance or deficit as a cause of the cramping but it appears that these were not proven facts but long standing hypothesis that has been past along in print and media.
You were right on the mark in saying that Electrolytes are important for motor functions, but it appears that skeletal muscle cramps and its association with electrolytes were never able to be validated and current research shows cramping is more likely to be caused by premature muscular fatigue.
EAMC = Exercise Associated Muscle Cramping
The following was presented in the 2007 Sports Medicine Journal Vol 37(4-5):364-7:
No mechanism explains how such imbalances in serum electrolytes result in localised muscle cramping. The 'muscle fatigue' hypothesis suggests that EAMC is the result of an abnormality of neuromuscular control at the spinal level in response to fatiguing exercise and is based on evidence from epidemiological studies, animal experimental data on spinal reflex activity during fatigue and electromyogram data recorded during bouts of acute cramping after fatiguing exercise. The development of premature muscle fatigue appears to explain the onset of EAMC.
The British Journal of Sports Medicine 2004 Aug;38(4):488-92 conducted a study on runners in a ultra-distance race and concluded the following:
There are no clinically significant alterations in serum electrolyte concentrations and there is no alteration in hydration status in runners with EAMC participating in an ultra-distance race.
Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 2005 Jul;37(7):1081-5 looked at serum electrolytes in Ironman triathletes "with exercise-associated muscle cramping" and concluded:
Acute EAMC in ironman triathletes is not associated with a greater percent body mass loss or clinically significant differences in serum electrolyte concentrations. The increased EMG activity of cramping muscles may reflect increased neuromuscular activity.
The Journal of Sports Sciences goes on in more in-depth to explain why passive stretches helps to alleviate the skeletal muscle cramping:
Local muscle fatigue is therefore responsible for increased muscle spindle afferent and decreased Golgi tendon organ afferent activity. Muscles which cross two joints can more easily be placed in shortened positions during exercise and would therefore decrease the Golgi tendon organ afferent activity. In addition, sustained abnormal reflex activity would explain increased baseline EMG activity between acute bouts of cramping. Finally, passive stretching invokes afferent activity from the Golgi tendon organ, thereby relieving the cramp and decreasing EMG activity.
You guessed - I'm doing another paper - thanks for the inspiration!!!
#28 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 10:17pm
Kamamakakaua,
As for my friend he is a freak, but the body adapts to whatever you give it consistently.I never use powerade or gatorade, got a mix i've tailored over the past few years.
Mahalo for the research articles, stoked on those.
As for cramping I am looking at the most basic cellular level... the sodium potassium pump which bring solutes in and out of cells. Without proper available electrolytes this doesn't work and your "engine" shuts down, as to what degree it affects cramping.....that remain to be seen. In terms of premature muscle fatigue causing cramps....what is causing "premature" muscle fatigue? Just a thought.
I think proper stretching is very much a crucial part (pre and post exercise) to avoidance of cramps.
I have to ask what class did this discussion take place and where?
Good luck with your paper
Aloha
#29 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:00pm
Its part of a graduate seminar series at the uni - not sure how to explain - 1 credit courses that take a whole lotta time when I could be paddling but aside from that, I'm bring up the alternative thoughts to aetiology of muscular cramping because I used to get it regularly and predictably with long workouts (over 2 hours) on the water. I used to take creatine which helped increase my lifts and realized that was contributing to the muscular cramps so I dropped that but the leg cramps was still occurring after a long paddle where my quads would just tighten up like someone jolted megawatts into it so I started trying out the V8 drinks which is loaded with sodium and potassium (close to 700 mg each). The "interesting" tasting V8 wasn't helping so I started trying this 3600 mg Amino Vital, an amino acid (AA) blend with the thought that it may delay muscular fatigue since AA is involved in muscle repair. I take it now during my heavy lift sessions since it supposedly gets into the muscles much more efficiently during this period. When I go for my long paddles in the afternoon, I don't get the cramps I used to. I'm not in any way promoting Amino Vital since you can pretty much buy any AA brands but I just found a cheap sale on it so decided to try it. Thats worked for me.
Your point of electrolytes being important for (neuro)motor functions is a very good one as it helps maintain muscle coordination and response on extended workouts.
But i'm curious about the sodium potassium pump you mentioned - what is the relationship between that and the serum electrolyte levels?
It would be interesting to read if other people still experience muscular cramping after loading with electrolytes before or during a long paddle.
#30 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 10:50am
However it is important to know that more electrolytes than normal does not mean an increase in neuron function.
Cocaine/ice/heroine will increase neuron function. Short term at least.
#31 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:19am
I used to use Amino Vital and it worked great, but I turned into a label freak and due to the aspartame in it I stopped using it. LOL
As for the sodium potassium pump I don't feel I am qualified to discuss a relationship between that and serum electrolyte levels. However, I do know that once depleted (electrolytes) it will not work as intended.
In short the Na+/K+ pump is a mode of active transport (moving ions against a concentration gradient) It is very much and integral part of nerve and muscle cell function. It is essential to generating nerve (electrical...thus the name electrolytes) impulses that allow for bodily movements. That is why if you are low on either of these crucial elements your motor function suffers and you can develop cramps.
Poopoo is totally right in terms higher electrolyte levels don't increase neuron function. The truth is that higher levels can be as debilitating if not more so than low levels. The key to electrolytes is maintaining that perfect level. So people can tolerate a higher variance while others are very sensitive.
The graduate seminar .........what department is it under, and title?
mahalos
#32 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:26pm
Huki - I think we've met before...
India cafe at the uni? La'au Lapa'au? ur in Botany dept.?
Anyway, these guys have done a unfettered comprehensive write up and evaluation of the theories behind muscle cramping and solutions for alleviating the symptoms...
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-1-theories-an...
Cheers,
Kaleo
#33 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 6:43pm
Lately I've been buying bags of mixed unsalted nuts along with dried fruit (esp mango). I've been taking a container to work with me, and have found it really keeps my energy levels up. As a result, come 3pm I'm not desperate for a coffee + chocolate fix anymore.
I've taken to bringing them along with me when I go hiking and kayaking as well.
I know the nuts are high fat, but it's still better than a couple of Mars bars. Cheaper too!
#34 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:30am
Why does everyone think fat is bad? We need fat and it tastes so damn good...
I'd take the highest fat nuts over a processed and refined sugar loaded mars bar any day. Someone else said it before, but eat real food and avoid processed, refined, or otherwise "engineered" nutrition.
#35 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 7:43am
Sodium potassium pump:
The 'sodium potassium pump' describes electrolyte exchange across cell membranes.
If you analyze blood you will find a high sodium; ~ 130, and a low potassium, ~ 4, level in the blood stream.
If you analyze cell fluid you will find the reverse, a low sodium and a high potassium level inside the cell.
This creates two gradients across the cell membrane that are driving forces at the same time:
These gradients are passive and establish the concentrations that you can measure. It is an electrical potential across the membrane that you can check with a voltmeter.
A nerve stimulus or hormon influence etc. can change the permeability of a cell membrane. 'Channels' open and the electrolytes rush in/out of the cell rapidly.
At that point you have a reverse of the condition described above.
To return to normal, an active process will set in: the sodium/potassium pump. This one requires energy to shuffle the electrolytes back out of the cell - sodium - or back into the cell - potassium - to restore the resting steady state.
In this resting state the cell membrane is ready to react again to a stimiulus.
Cells can influence each other in a domino effect - change the membrane potential in one will trigger the neighboring cell to do the same - example nerve function.
Osmosis:
Water will always try to dilute a concentration of particles. This is called osmotic pressure:
take a membrane that allows water to pass only and separate two compartments with it. Fill both compartments with an equal amount of water. Now add particles ( such as sodium, but also sugar etc ) to one compartment and not to the other.
This will attract the water to flow across the membrane into the particle rich side. Surprising, isn't it ?
Relation to sports: you want to keep all the mechanisms as close to normal as possible.
Example do not drink water without any salts=electrolytes in it because it will dilute the normal concentrations and mechanisms will work less efficiently. Distilled water can kill you for this reason.
Fat: is a long term energy source that starts being used after about 30 min. It is less energy efficient, needs to be digested/transformed before it can be burnt. But it is valid energy source.
Fat is not bad at all, you need it. Fat = fatty acids is a mjaor component of cholesterol. Cholesterol is a major component of the membranes = walls of most cells.
If you don't eat fat, your body will produce it's own by transforming sugars and proteins. If you eat too much fat your stools will get fatty, a sign that there is a limited capacity of the gut to take up fat.
A lot of money is being made in these areas, that has to be kept in mind. All nutritional questions can be answered with basic knowledge and, mostly, with common sense.
#36 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 10:43am
Don't take offence eckhart - its great to share this perspective on the mechanisms involved at the cellular level. I would like to take this perspective and "zoom out" to a more pragmatic view.
I respectively would like to suggest that to say drinking distilled water can kill may underestimate the complexities of human physiology to adapt to extreme stress conditions placed upon it to maintain homeostasis. We see many situations where individuals placed in situations without water and food for extended periods are able to survive.
In the scope of athletes, rather than putting it all here, go to the following links to understand the functions of the renal system - the role that the kidneys play in helping to maintain electrolyte balance, what happens to the body during dehydration, excess protein consumption, and other vital processes that impact renal function.
http://www.faqs.org/sports-science/Pl-Sa/Renal-Function.html
The following is an even better article, and one that provides much better detail. Although its published in Neonatal Network Journal, the concepts and physiology are well articulated:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7630333
And if you have even more time on your hands, the following PDF touches upon the biochemical markers used to determine kidney disease and offers a comparative analysis between athletes and non-athletes ...
http://www.unitn.it/events/icms07/download/presentazioni/Lippi_G_MSH2007...
#37 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:07am
Quote: All nutritional questions can be answered with basic knowledge and, mostly, with common sense.
I'm not sure if I would agree to the extent that this is categorically true. If our goal is to achieve optimal performance as athletes, I would pose these questions and see whether "common sense" provides the necessary knowledge to attain the information needed for optimal nutrition for maximizing benefits from our workouts and ultimately to achieving our best performance on the water...
For female athletes, what are the nutritional issues that are important to them? Or in general, what is the one RDA recommendation that is higher for women than for men? And what food source provides the bio-available nutrient that is needed to allow them to perform optimally? [ bio -available - body is able to absorb and utilize the nutrient ]
There are a lot of people who have decided to adopt the vegetarian diet. As athletes, what food groups do they need to combine in order to obtain all the necessary amino acids they need? Furthermore, if tofu is the source of protein, how much tofu would an athlete need to consume to meet his/her protein needs in order to adequately repair the exercising muscles? What is the difference between animal and vegetable protein?
Iron is an essential component of oxygen transport in endurance events, what is a good source of iron? What happens when there is insufficient iron in the diet?
Adkins and other high protein diets have become popular. For athletes, what are the consequences of an Adkins diet? How are excess protein in the diet stored in the body? What happens when there is insufficient glucose in the body to fuel the exercising muscle?
Much has been discussed as to which canoes are best, performs best, fastest in what conditions, but ultimately, the canoe is only as good as the engine driving the power, the power is only as strong as the "grade of fuel" that is put into it.
Training and nutrition go hand in hand.
#38 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:14pm
I shared this, because you asked about the sodium potassium pump and the relationship to the sodium blood levels.
No doubt that the human body can adapt to extremes. Also no doubt that large amounts of distilled water could potentially kiil you; I am trying to illustrate the connection between salt and water. Indeed, the kidneys play a major, you may say the major role.
Examples of hypotonic hyperhydration:
- near drowning, entry through the lungs
- TUR - prostate resection, the fluid used for bladder irrigation is free of electrolytes, can enter the blood stream
- erroneous infusions such as G 5% in large amounts
starts with headaches, nausea; disorientation, neurodysfunction; hyponatriemic shock; brain edema; death.
Of course you need fairly large amounts of free water, but the examples given show you that it is real.
#39 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:16pm
The 'common sense' statement relates to Anowara's post and fits that context.
Nutrition is important, indeed.
If I understand you correctly you want to point out the value of research. Sure, you are right.
Research in sports physiology is highly interesting and we can learn a lot. It is often done with relatively small groups. Can you claim that the results apply to an entire population ?
My proposal is that common sense is at least as valid as research.
How about Anowara's approach: non-processed foods in the amount that you need, that would be no weight loss or gain. Basic knowledge on how you should compose your diet. In addition, for extreme performance, adapt: that includes that you find out what you should/should not drink during, as an example, a five or ten hour paddle.
If you enter more extreme cases, like Olympic level training, you would need to continually monitor the athlete's health, do blood analysis etc..
.
#40 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:47pm
One word... "MODERATION"
Except when racing ... smash yourself.
#41 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 1:31pm
Great point Eckhart - I'm not refuting what you are saying regarding the Na/K+ pump - its interesting and all, just trying to find some common ground with the bigger picture.
I like the points you present because it allows me to present a different view point, and I am sure others would disagree with my point as well or have a better insight that I would encourage since we can all learn from various knowledge basis.
As for the nutrition questions I posed, I'm not talking about research responses to those nutrition questions. They are not "research" theoretical concepts, but basic nutrition knowledge that has sometimes been misunderstood in mainstream media.
I'll give you an example, rhetorically ... is spinach a good source of iron for a woman who is anemic? If you coach or advise a female athlete, what do you tell her if she ask? I am bringing this topic up because within the college age group females, this is something that should be addressed.
Or lets focus on the vegetarian diet. What are the concerns or nutritional needs that vegetarians should consider that non-vegetarians do not need to be as concerned with?
This is a fundamental nutrition topic that vegetarian athletes would probably ask or thought about or maybe not because they assume it doesn't matter? This is about the nutritional contents of foods and not about research studies.
In terms of the Adkins diet, what happens to the body in 2hr+ hours of training/paddling and how does the Adkins diet impact the athletes ability to train effectively, to recover from a demanding workout? This is also not research and the concepts have been well understood in terms of how athletes prepare themselves for an endurance event. This was actually address by Lance Armstrong's trainer Johan Bruyneel and is a fundamental issue that endurance athletes face when preparing for an endurance race such as the Moloka'i to O'ahu crossing.
Just some thoughts - but now, I have to watch Saturday Night Live, I mean the VP debate =)
This is awesome that you share your views and disagree. I learn just as much from what you have to share! Debates are good - especially the one coming up! =)
#42 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 3:18pm
Pine nuts!
#43 Sat, 01/03/2009 - 7:16pm
The zone/balanced approach to nutrition, whether an athlete or not, is the most common sense approach I've seen. Just balancing your carbs, fats, and protein means a huge reduction in carbs for this society.
The other aspect is where do you get your food? I don't eat any prepared foods. If it comes in a box, can, or jar, I'm very cautious. Read the ingredients. Some are good, most are garbage.
I like food that you have to grab a plastic bag for. I'd rather put my food together. You know what you're eating.
Every day I eat brocc, spinach, carrots, toms, salmon or sardines, figs, nuts, apples, banana, milk, homemade bread, flax meal, oatmeal, raisens, just as a foundation to other foods.
No hamburger helper, frozen pizza, fast food, or soda. I can't imagine eating that crap.
An overweight woman ask where I found time to eat right. I ask here where she found time to eat wrong. You took time to be fat, take the same time to be thin.
Eating right is more important than what you do for exercise. You are what you eat, not what you do in the gym.
Hey, I like the sweet stuff too. My wife is an incredible baker. But its homemade. Sugar, flour, butter, eggs. Simple foods that your body can break down and digest. Try and find those in the list of ingredients in boxed cookies. Preservatives, chemicals, food coloring, bad fat, etc.
If you don't have time for healthy living now, you'll have to make time for illness later...LNB
#44 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 7:47am
LNB, basically agree with what you're saying. Don't eat processed/prepared food, cook your own. But if I get the craving for a greasy burger and fries once in a while, I won't deny myself. Eat smart 95%+ of the time, don't stress over the occasional crap. Considering that most people eat 95%+ crap, we're way ahead.
#45 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 8:02am
I know its sounds crazy but a lean sirloin burger on a whole wheat bun with all the stuff is the best burger ive ever had. made at home so its actually not that bad for you. You can do the same with hot dogs. Turkey or even sirloin dogs on a huge whole wheat bun. Once you cover it with all the stuff you cant tell the difference except that the meat actually tastes good.
#46 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 9:27am
Perhaps a controversial question...
I prefer to eat fresh, home-prepared foods because I love good flavor. And when things taste incredible, I find it easier to control the portions of what I eat, because the food is deeply satisfying and flavorful. Even better if the ingredients are locally sourced and grown, for environmental reasons, for freshness, and to support my local economy and growers/farmers/ranchers.
So philosophically, I agree that all the preservatives and processed stuff is junk.
But I have to ask, is there scientific proof that "all" processed stuff is bad for you nutritionally? Yes, there are certain ingredients and processed items that have been shown in scientific studies to be bad for you. I should note that lots of scientific studies can be dredged up to show the same for certain "natural" ingredients, and after a while you start to feel like everyone can dig up a study in support of and against a specific ingredient. (Also, I have become quite a skeptic after reading about how many "scientific" experiments are conducted, who funds them, how regulated these are, bias towards the funding organization, etc.)
As a TV character said on a show I watched last night, "Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."
Quite seriously, how does one source accurate, (relatively) unbiased health nutrition information? For those of you in university classes, are there books for the lay person that your professors might recommend?
#47 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 10:26am
I have wondered the same things. With enough money, you can drum up many scientific tests, especially when it comes to things like nutrition, to get the desired results in order to make a legally truthful statement. I do not know the answer to your question but this is why I try to stay with whole foods as much as possible. Cannot go wrong.
#48 Sun, 01/04/2009 - 11:13am
No need for fancy surveys. When you're at the supermarket checkout next time, look at the contents of the trolly's and then at the people pushing them. The overweight unhealthy looking shopper will have a trolley full of Coke, Biscuits and all other types of processed food and very little fruit and veg. The healthy looking dude will have a trolley full of fruit, veg, lean meats and wholemeal carbs.
What more proof do you want?
Cheers Rambo
#49 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 10:28am
Will the healthy guy have any TimTams?
#50 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 11:41am
There are exceptions ..... hahaha
Rambo
#51 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 11:50am
Valerie and Rambo - I agree.
Nutrition is big business and many data are produced to support marketing.
Of course many good data are availbale, too.
Personally I think that common sense and some general knowledge is good enough unless you are training at Olympic levels. I have summarized my basic thoughts on my blog under 'OC 1 nutrition' if you are interested - that seems enough info to do it right.
#52 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 12:12pm
I think the advertising claims that most nutritional supplements and fluid replacement products make are grossly exaggerated. If they did 1/10 of what they claimed, they would be on the list of banned drugs.
Having raced bikes for over 30 years I've tried a huge number of them. Its not that any of them are bad, its just that they're no better than dilute fruit juice, or just plain old good food.
There are no miracle substances out there that are legal.
#53 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 12:24pm
Today before I worked out I ate about 1/3 cup of raisins in stead of some fancy bar. I felt great, lots of good energy, and no funny feeling because of the indigested food in my stomach. More and more im using the cheaper methods vs the fancy nutrition products like chocolate milk vs muscle milk. Raisins vs whatever. Its way cheaper and better for you. I dont have to read the label on raisins either and wonder if theres anything bad in them. About the only "supplements" are for my fluid bag and for electrolytes. After the paddle it was natural apple juice and a turkey sandwich on whole wheat bread with lots of veggies.
Damnit, now im hungry again.
#54 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 1:17pm
Raisens are excellent energy. I prefer figs, but never pass up raisens.
As far as chemically treated food, Rambo is right. Look at what the typical Walmart shopper is buying. If that's not enough to have you run for the fresh food section I don't know what is.
These chemical and flavor enhanced foords certainly contibute to our national epidemic of diabetes. You gotta figure a billlion years of eating raw, fresh food seems to work. This new crap doesn't. They feed on the pleasure mechanism of our brain and not the common sense mechanism.
I couldn't eat that stuff if I wanted to. I'd feel sick. I love the flavor of whole, natural food. I can't wait to eat it. Zero desire to eat processed, junk, or fast food. Not even on my day off, so to speak. I don't feel the least bit deprived or left wanting the garbage.
Hey, I eat cookies, pie, cake, burgers, etc., but I make it with simple ingredients that are easy to digest and pass if needed!
It's so easy to replace hydrogenated oil with applesauce or pumkin. It tastes better, better for you, and fewer calories.
This society has really lost touch with what your body needs for fuel to stay strong and healthy. It doesn't come with a pretty label. How many bowls of Kashi do I need to eat to equal the vitamins of Total. Guess what, you don't eat cereal for vitamin content. Hey, there's no cholesterol in Trisquits. Great, that only comes from animal fat anyway. How about the hydrogenated oil that is worse than the animal fat?
It's a joke for those in the know. The rest buy the label and let the food companies dupe then into a purchase. Most never get past the advertising. It looks healthy, so it must be. They said it was. They wouldn't lie.
I'm not looking to lengthen my life. That's pretty much a DNA issue. I want quality of life. It was 32 today, and I owned the water. Not another soul except a flock of geese and a stellar setting sun. Eating right helps me get that.
Eat well, be well!...LNB
#55 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 1:46pm
Karel Jnrs choice of mid race food for the Blackburn race was 2 containers of mixed fruit in Syrup, the ones in the little containers you buy. carbs ,simple sugar, a little fiber, easy to go down and digests quickly. ... they're cheap and DON'T come with a mass of literature telling you how great it is.
Rambo
#56 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 2:11pm
Thats funny beaver. I dont hardly even want fast and processed foods. When I do eat them im over it before ive finished anything and it messes up my stomach. years ago when I would fall off the wagon of exercising and start eating only those foods it would take my system awhile to get used to eating healthy foods again. Its funny how your system gets used to one way or another. Its been so long now I doubt ill ever fall back into those habbits. Ive been blessed with a love for paddling and even exercise in general and I could never do any of it while eating crap food so I guess im lucky. Some people can cruise just fine with it though. Interesting.
#57 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 2:53pm
Ya, I guess I'd have as much trouble converting to a processed food diet as someone would to my diet.
Diet is no different than exercise, sport, work, or anything else we do. You learn what it takes to get good and you do what you can to get there. I put as much effort in learning about food as I do paddling, my job, raising my kids, planning for the future, you name it. Its not exempt from effort.
Saying you don't have time is rediculous. You spend the time looking for the cheapest gas for your car. How much time do women spend in the bathroom each day? Or doing this? It's absurd to say you don't have the time.
Anyway, back to paddling...LNB
#58 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 3:33pm
People have different priorities. Since getting into paddling I have taken my nutrition to the next level for sure. Its one thing to run out of gas on a long run or bike or gym session but a mile out in advancing weather? Not interested. Alot of this has come from you guys on here so thanks.
#59 Mon, 01/05/2009 - 7:03pm
Taking in calories without feeling sluggish isn't to difficult you just need to look to see where you'd like to get the calories from, pasta is going to make you lay in bed i really prefer eating jerky and other meats which dont make me feel tired etc. Even taking regular discount vitamins with high amounts of B's will give you some good energy.
#60 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 10:49am
OCPaddler spam!
#61 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 10:56am
Spam? No way. You can't beat the whole can vienna sausage omelet at my favorite n. shore restaurant before race. For carbo load meal, no can beat tons of ulu and slabs of corn beef. Wack em!
#62 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 12:57pm
I meant internet spam. The post about the vitamins was a spam ad.
#63 Mon, 02/16/2009 - 9:15pm