Lactic acid training | OCPaddler.com

http://www.daveyhearn.com/Coaching/Technique/The%20Endicott%20Files/The%...

Greg barton mold explains it pretty welllllllll

#1 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 9:34am

That was a good find - I havent read that book before but heard much about it - for some reason the link doesnt work so heres a tiny for ya...

http://tinyurl.com/5yjgwg

#2 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 11:44am

kicbacmaui - I just finished reading that Barton Mold - looks like the author took much of it from the physiology textbooks verbatim. It was rough reading.

From the way I understand it, (and for the experts, please "chine" in anytime), I'm gona practice using some terms i'm learning in class hahaha so don't mind me - and please give me feed back coz this will be for a paper for my class ... mash it up!

Exercise basically uses two predominant substrates in the body for energy (well, four if you include Creatine Phosphate and protein - for simplicity sake, Im leaving these out) but I'll stick with the two (Fats and Carbos).

The proportion of how much of these two energy substrates are used is dependent on the intensity of exercise. Both are used in varying amounts, just depends on how hard you're workin out.

As the intensity of the workout increases, the shift in fats to carbs used moves towards more carbs and less fats. The breakdown of carbs for energy produces lactic acid. Lactic Acid then disassociates to Lactate and H+ (technical moment). The increase in H+ causes the muscles to feel sore and stiff, making it more and more difficult to exercise as more lactic acid is produced.

Hence, spending more time training around the anaerobic or Lactate Threshold allows the body to physiologically and mentally adapt to higher loads of Lactic acid production and removal from the muscles, thus increasing our tolerance to handle more lactic acid.

When our lactate threshold level increases, then our racing pace can also increase, allowing us to race faster for a longer period of time without tiring out.

So I was wondering, what is a persons lactate threshold level and looked it up and found out its the point at which the muscles begin to produce more lactic acid then it can remove. When I was watchin the Olympics, they showed these Lactic acid measuring devices that measures a swimmers lactic acid in the blood. However, there seems to be a practical way for everyday people to guesstimate when they are reaching this point -> breathing rate.

Interestingly, as the body builds more lactic acid, theres a respiratory response, so breathing rate also increases in proportion so you can tell when you start to reach threshold.

One exercise I tried the other day was to paddle on the calm flat waters of the Ala Wai going back and forth, increasing my stroke rate for a predeterimed time interval and getting a sense of my breathing rate then seeing how long I can hold that intensity rate and using the Garmin to record my heart rate and speed. Once I reached a certain intensity level, I was no longer able to sustain that for a long time so I reached my threshold. With more LT training, I should be able to increase this threshold and hold a faster pace for longer periods - for flatwater that is - coz, I still need to learn to fly the 'ama in surf conditions, and why Karel is so good at what he does!

Trained athletes and genetically advantaged athletes can tolerate higher lactic acid levels before they reach their threshold. I guess thats why people like Danny, Manny, Kai, Jesse, Jaime, Lauren etc., can go at a faster pace then the rest for a longer period of time.

Supposedly, Sodium bicarbonate supplementation also helps buffer the lactic acid but I don't know how much of it is true.

I know that was probably boring and uninformative to read as shetzs but now I get to copy and paste to my paper =D

Reference: http://tinyurl.com/3gtrpl

#3 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 12:55pm

I take L-glutamine after workouts. I don't know how it works on Lactic Acid, but that's what its supposed to reduce. I started taking it when I was doing a heavy weightlifting regimen and I was feeling lots of pain in along the bones in my fore-arms. When I started with the L-G, the pain went away. I saw it written up in a soccer magazine, saying that of the supplements they tested out, this was one of the only ones that they could argue would be worth taking.

#4 Tue, 09/30/2008 - 4:40pm

Kaimiloa ~ how much glutamine do you take after workouts?
I'm curious since Hammer Products has a glutamine "loading" product that you take for four days prior to a race.(that works really well!) Thanks!

#5 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 7:24am

Someone told me they take enzymes after a workout. Ever heard of that? Whats an enzyme?

#6 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 8:30am

An enzyme is something you spend a lot of money to buy. The guy who sells it to you gets to buy a new canoe, you have to keep paddling the old beater cause all your money is going for quick fixes.
Nah, seriously, unless you have an incredibly poor diet, supplements of any kind never prove out in a real double blind test. Well, I take that back, the ones that do work are all on the list of banned drugs. So if you want a quick fix, its called cheating.
Just eat a healthy diet (doesn't have to be extreme) and train hard.

#7 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 8:59am

This is what I learned as a competitive cyclist:

In well trained athletes, Lactate Threshold occurs at about 86% of maximum heart rate. In the untrained population, it can occur at HRs as low as 60% of maximum. Genetic freaks like Lance, Miquel Indurain, etc, have genetically high VO2Max numbers that allow them to utilize more oxygen per minute than mere mortals. That means that Lance can train at about 92% of maximum hr before he goes anaerobic (his LT is higher than yours at your well-trained best).

Your cardio training should have two primary goals:
Increase your LT (to get close to that 86% before you go anaerobic)
Increase the amount of time you can spend at LT.

Get a heart rate monitor and train indoors (very controlled exercise). The best way to increase lactate threshold (to get close to that 86%) is by interval training, where the top end of the interval is close to maximum heart rate interspersed with periods of very easy recovery hr intervals. Only do hard intervals one or two times per week. The other workouts should be LT workouts where you exercise in a range about 4 beats above and below your lactate threshold heart rate. Gradually increase the amount of time you can spend at LT. LT workouts are HARD. Most people spend waaaay too much time in "no man's land," ie a hr that is not hard enough to do them any real good in terms of LT. If you don't have a HR monitor, you know you are at LT if you are at that point where your breathing is very labored, but you are not yet gasping for air. If we were working out together and I asked you to get to this point and then go just a tiny bit harder or faster, you should immediately start to gasp.

When I am somewhat detrained, my LT occurs about 158 bpm. When I am well-trained, my LT occurs at between 163 and 168 bpm depending on rest, hydration, etc.

Maximum HR will decline a very small amount when you become very well trained, as heart stroke volume increases.

DON'T WASTE MONEY ON USELESS SUPPLEMENTS :>

#8 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 9:25am

@catdaily: Thanks for the post. Regarding max hr, i understand the increase of volume at well trained, but once at well trained should you train to increase your max hr? So as fitness increases, max hr drops, then increases as you reach higher vo2 max.

#9 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 9:39am

Your MAXIMUM HR is pretty much pre-determined by genetics (As is your VO2Max). Once you start training, you can increase MaxHR slightly, but it's really a very small amount (I forget the actual percentage). That's why LT training is SO important... it's a variable that we can change, by a large amount, and it responds well to the right kind of training.

The drop in Max HR is only a few beats, and because stroke volume increases, it really doesn't affect your athletic status. My max hr drops from about 190-191 to 185'ish.

The old 220-your age is a very, very general way to figure max hr without doing a test (they suck, believe me ;<) Mine would be 220-46, which would yield a max of 174, which is obviously not 100 % accurate in my case (but when you add back 5 beats for women, as our hearts beat a bit faster, it's not too far off the mark). So my two goals in training are to increase LT to get to 86% of 185 (so that I can work at 159 bpm WITHOUT going anaerobic) and then to increase the amount of time I can exercise at 159 bpm. There is no way to increase my max beyond my genetic limitation of around 185 now that I've trained for a few years. Sadly, MaxHR declines with age ;<

Does that help?

#10 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 10:26am

I like Jibofo's comments. Focus your energies on what matters the most.

As for me I rarely lactate acid. However sometimes when really surprised or really excited I'll lactate acid.

#11 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:16am

Kaimiloa,

When you are "sore" it is because your workout had literally ripped your muscles apart (myosin/actin interface) and it causes soreness. Which causes your muscles to be bigger and/or stronger after they have repaired themselves. L-glutamine in terms of muscle synthesis is the single most crucial amino acid and the most abundant in muscle tissue. In terms of it reducing lactic acid, it acts as a buffer to neutralize it. However, I believe lactic acid is not the main cause of sore muscles. It is this tearing apart of muscle tissue during intense exercise that causes sore muscles. By supplementing with L Glutamine you are providing your muscles more building blocks to restore the damage done and thus reducing your perception of soreness and thus recovery time.
The perception of burn or pain in your muscles from lactic acid build up during and/or after a workout is entirely different from sore muscles experienced after an intense workout.
Hope this provides some insight
Aloha

#12 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:30am

Dead right on on muscle sreness, Huki! That's why popeye ate so much spinach... naturally rich in L-glutamine. I prefer to get my "supplements" in real food when I can :>

#13 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:07pm

Wow, a diet of Spinach really can see you looking good in old age. There's hope for us yet Fuzey.

Cheers Rambo

#14 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:50am

http://www.fitbuff.com/glutamine-supplements-may-be-more-hype-than-help/

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL25936320070802

#15 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:52am

There's only one legal supplement i know of that you can feel working every time and very effective, Very Strong Coffee, half hour before racing / training, i swear by it. Then a GUI Squeezy (Coffee Love flavour) half hour before race finish.

You do need to be a regular strong (short espresso) coffee drinker for this to be most effective.

Every organ in the body is stimulated by this wonderful substance, never suffered the dreaded cliff effect yet, and even if you do, you've made the down wind turn buoy in front of everyone else and your gone.

Don't take it mid race though.

Cheers Rambo

#16 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:22pm

Popeye would have been an unreal paddler!

#17 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:28pm

rambo GU is badass. But I had to switch to tangerine power gels cause GU made my poopoo funny. Rambo, you should try it, if you like the other stuff you'll be very happy with tangerine power gels. Double caffienated.

#18 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 12:31pm

I Yam what i Yam ..... yuk yuk yuk yuk!!!!

I'll seek them out PooPoo

Rambo

#19 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 1:11pm

I go with Hammer Gel as OC Girl mentiond, worked well back in my Mountin Bike racing days..

#20 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 5:29pm

Thanks Catdaily. Made good sense.
So best game plan is to determine max hr and LT then start working on increasing LT...? What are the best methods for testing? You mentioned indoors, would that be treadmill or row? Also, what is the best interval for test (ie 1min on 30 off)?

#21 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 5:38pm

Huki... Thanks for the explanation. Actually, the pain I was having from lifting was felt along the edges of and in my bones. It wasn't muscle pain that I recognized. And yes, I know muscle pain from 20+ years of competitive soccer. Oh, and my diet sucks. I'm a lazy bachelor with a mortgage. My chickens will start laying eggs pretty soon, so at least I'll get some natural food. Anyways, I think the talk about supplements isn't as interesting as the science of exercise being discussed, so I'll stop.

P.S. OC Girl... fyi I take 3000mgs of L-Glutamine afterwards. Sometimes I split it up and take half before and half afterwards.

#22 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 6:15pm

Joe:

MaxHR tests suck and you need someone to do it with you and a good HR monitor. Not sure how you'd do it on an erg, but on a stationary bike, you would cycle for about 10-15 minutes at a warmup pace, then pick a tension level where you can keep a steady cadence comfortably (usually between 90 and 110 rpm). Then you increase the tension every two minutes and continue to cycle without allowing your cadence to slow. When you reach the point where you cannot continue without slowing down, you would do an all out sprint until you basically keel over :> (that's where the friend comes in... they catch you if you fall and also take a look at your HR monitor at that point to see how high you got, although it should record it anyway).

I would think that some of the excellent rowing literature has some ways to do HRMax tests on an erg.

Or to make it simple, you can look up some of the formulas for determining MaxHR and just start there. (220-age, etc, there are some that are more accurate and not too far off the mark).

I would then take 86% of that number as a ballpark LT. Do one or two days a week of interval training (3 minute intervals are a good starting point with 3-5 minute recoveries in between. Shoot for 5 intervals or so, but stop doing them when you can't get your HR as high on a subsequent one as you could on the first one). Work the 3 minutes so that by the end of the 3 minute period you are as close to your max as you can get. Recover, Repeat.

Then on the other days, try to do LT training. Do a good warmup, then shoot for a HR that is in a range between 4 beats below and 4 beats above your LTHR. Stay there as long as you can. When you become too uncomfortable, lower your effort to recover moderately and then go back to that zone again. Over time, try to lengthen the amount of time you can stay at LTHR.

#23 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 8:42pm

joe, if you really want to learn about testing, this is probably one of the best authoritative reference guides:

http://www.exrx.net/Store/Other/ACSMResourceManual.html

The best testing protocols are exercise specific, that requires movement of the muscles you are using in the sport of interest to illicit the actual physiological response and obtain the data you are interested in that will be of practical value. Would you test Lance Armstrong on an OC-1 to see what his LT range is going to be training at for biking?

i'm not sure as to the condition of your health but a properly done heart rate max test should be done under the guidance and supervision of a certified personal trainer, CPR certified, and certified by a reputable organization such as the American College of Sports Medicine or National Strength and Conditioning Association or a Sports Medicine Physician.

An all out max effort can illicit physiological responses you may not expect, and you sure hells want someone there that knows what to do if things go wrong.

Talk to people who have done maximal exercise testing and they will do a proper and thorough assessment of your health before getting you properly setup on an exercise apparatus, as well as provide you with an educated interpretation of the data and assessment of your performance.

Your health and safety comes first!

#24 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 9:32pm

Of better value is a blood lactate test. (easily done with simple hand held monitors)

Lactic acid does not exist in the blood stream as such. As soon as it is produced, the substance perceived to be lactic acid, converts into lactate and hydrogen. A lactate analyzer measures the concentration of lactate (a useful fuel) in the blood. It does not measure Lactic Acid. Lactate is a good thing, not a bad thing. We want the good remember.

Make Lactate your friend.

Cheers Rambo

#25 Wed, 10/01/2008 - 11:42pm

Lactate may be a good thing, but lactating ain't.
especially if you're a guy.

#26 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:24am

Yah I agree smoog.

If you missed it I earlier stated in this thread:
"As for me I rarely lactate acid. However sometimes when really surprised or really excited I’ll lactate acid."

#27 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 10:33am

I already use a heart-rate monitor so why should I measure lactate?

Because heart-rate assesses only the rate at which the body's blood pump is working whereas lactate is a direct product of muscular work and rapidly diffuses into the bloodstream. Since the early 80's lactate has been regarded by most exercise physiologists as the most valid parameter that can be routinely measured when monitoring training status. Unlike the lactate v work-rate curve, the heart-rate v work-rate curve shows no useful inflection for identifying the aerobic/anaerobic threshold and hence controlling training and following performance development.

#28 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:20am

JAYBIRD
Have used Greg Barton's videos on technique as coaching tools. Excellent ideas. Will be checking out all the web sites and blogs on this thread.

catdailey: i know many Coaches who use lactate acid testing to tailor workout programs. Karel Sr, the Tahitians and the Coaches at Keahiakahoe, others as well. Yours was an excellant explanation on using that info. Thankyou for enlightening me on the benefits of knowing your LT and how that affects your max HR.

Most Coachs know the benefits of aerobic vs. anaerobic training. Many more could benefit from your posting.

Mahalo nui loa!

#29 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 4:47pm

catdailey,

Awesome posts, thanks for the info. I just wanted to make sure I was reading your last post correctly. I understand one type of training is LT (within 4 beats +/- of 86% of MHR)

But on the interval days are you suggesting I get right up to my MHR (200 - my age) for 3 minute intervals, with the 3 - 5 minute recovery? I thought MHR was MAXHR! - As in don't go that high if you can help it.

Thanks again, I'm looking forward to trying this out (yes, I'll be safe, kamamakakaua)

#30 Thu, 10/02/2008 - 8:57pm

Thank you guys!
This is a good forum!!! =)
Let's be our best.

#31 Fri, 10/03/2008 - 7:58am

Kahuna:

Yes, I absolutely meant that by the END of the 3 minutes, you should be as close to MAXHR as you can get. It's going to take you 2-3 minutes to actually get that high. It's very stressful interval training, which is why you should only do it one or two (even that's hard) days per week. Start with 3-5 intervals but only do as many as you can do where on subsequent ones your hr is as high as you got it on the first one. We cyclists can do these on long hills (1 to 1 1/2 miles) that are steep enough that you are maxed at the top. Ride back down, wait, and repeat. There's a hill here in Philly that comes up off of the river that's perfect for this type of training. My record is 10 repeats.

And Jaybird, I am totally into the science of sport and I love to teach, coach, etc whenever I get the chance. Sally Edwards wrote some very good books on HR training that include some really good information and workout plans that you could look at. So fire away!

Cat

#32 Fri, 10/03/2008 - 11:43am

Simplifying the concept a little,

Interval training at a high heart rate can help to increase your LT and VO2 Max to its highest genetic potential.

A higher LT is not that your your body can handle high levels of lactic acid for longer periods but that you are able to perform at a higher power output before you start generating lactic acid due to training. You are able to perform at a higher power output using primarily aerobic pathways versus anaerobic which builds lactic acid.

You can test your VO2 Max using a Concept 2 pretty easily. There is a spot on the Concept2 web site that allows you to extrapolate your VO2 Max from your time on a 2K run and your weight. A physiologist conducted a study using a large number of subjects matching their tested VO2 MAX (using traditional testing methods) and times on the Concept2 rower. The result is supposed to be accurate to within 1.5%

http://www.concept2.com/us/interactive/calculators/vo2max.asp

#33 Fri, 10/03/2008 - 4:25pm

JAYBIRD

AWESOME.

Mahalo nui loa catdailey and Surfside, you made my day!

#34 Sat, 10/04/2008 - 2:24pm